Then went outside to watch the P. parade

[Sandy Larsen]

On 2/14/2019 at 3:46 PM, Vanessa Loney said:

On 2/14/2019 at 9:31 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Thanks Jeremy.

It appears that Jarman's account of Oswald going outside has him leaving a number of minutes after the shooting. So this cannot be added to the list of accounts of Oswald being on the steps or near the  front door during the shooting.

 

Thanks guys but no. Jarman is saying Lovelady told him about the incident after he Jarman came outside.

Lovelady told Jarman that Oswald was stopped by the policeman at the front door as he was on his way in. This has to be referring to Baker coming in the front door of the building right after the assassination.

Jarman was stopped by another officer and ordered back in to the building after the shooting. As some time after this Lovelady told him about Oswald.

 

Vanessa,

I wish you were right, but I don't think so. Please allow me to explain my thinking. If I am wrong, then show me how.

1. Oswald went outside twice. The first time was to see the presidential parade (and the shooting), and the second time to go home.
2. The question is, does the account given by Lovelady to Jarman refer to the Oswald's first exit or his second?
3. In my words, the story is that Oswald was stopped by a policeman when he attempted to exit the building, and was sent back in. Roy Truly vouched for Oswald and then he was allowed to leave. He walked on down the stairs.
4. Clearly this account is referring to the second time Oswald went outside. Right?
5. At this time the motorcade was gone and policemen were inside the TSBD. The shooting had long passed, by which I mean a number of minutes had passed.
6. Therefore we can't count Jarman's testimony as being one indicating that Oswald was on the steps during the shooting. Rather, it indicates that Oswald was on the steps when he was on his way home.

 

•  

[Guest]

Correct Sandy.

Jarman made his way down from the 5th via a short stop on the 4th along with Williams and Norman.

After the shooting.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

LOL  ROTF

Francois:

I just flipped open Accessorries After the Fact  to p. 258, this is how Meagher quotes Benavides:

1. Callaway had to ask Benavides what had happened.

2.  Callaway had to ask him which way the perpetrator fled so he could chase him.

That is some witness FC.  Callaway also said he never saw Helen Markham at the scene. Would you agree it was hard to miss her in hysterics?

Milo Reech and David Josephs are doing some  remarkable work on the TIppit case over at DPF.  They have gone even beyond the info  in my essay.  

As I said, the TIppit case has been broken open.  And I did not even mention Doris Holan.

Benavides, the witness who was closest to the Tippit killing, and was not used to ID Oswald in a line-up.

Benavides who gave no statement to the DPD, Dallas Sheriff and FBI  I mean it should have been a cakewalk for the lawmen to nail Oswald to the cross with a  witness like that no?

Not until the WC testimony is taken 4 months later does he come into play.

Sam Guinyard and Ted Callaway, both working at the same car repair shop, not far away from the scene of the crime, contradict each other during their W.C. testimonies, something Gokay Hasan Yusuf has already succinctly brought forward in his blog post in 2013.

 

ROTFLMFA indeed

 

Meanwhile Oswald is still Prayer Man, since the evidence and photographs link him to it  No amount of posting by the deluded LNers and Brian Doyle trying to hammer against it has not even made the slightest dent in the evidence presented. Simply beautiful to see these people staring into defeat.

More news tomorrow !!!!!

Edited February 16, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

I've kept an open mind to Prayer Man being Oswald for years. A year or two ago I became convinced that the second floor Baker/Oswald encounter never occurred.

With this latest revelation -- Hosty's notes -- along with all the other research done by Bart and others, I am now convinced that Oswald was indeed on the steps immediately after the shooting, and possibly during the shooting as well. I haven't studied the TSBD stairway occupants much. But since Bart, Andrej, and others have, and have found no other possibility, I feel it's safe to identify Prayer Man as Oswald.

So the Prayer Man identification now has my support. (FWIW.)

 

[François Carlier]

This thread is a perfect example of how a conspiracy mind works :
- two men saw Lee Oswald on the second floor and actually talked to him ? Never mind, conspiracy-minded people think it's proof Oswald was outside.
- Oswald himself said he was in the building ? Never mind, conspiracy-minded people think it's proof Oswald was outside.
- All Oswald's colleagues who were outside never saw him anywhere near there ? Never mind, conspiracy-minded people think it's proof Oswald was outside.
- Oswald himself mentionned the second floor encounter to Will Fritz (who wrote that in his notes). Never mind, conspiracy-minded people think it's proof Oswald was outside.
- All the evidence that we have show that Oswald was on the sixth floor. Never mind, conspiracy-minded people think it's proof Oswald was outside.
- etc.…
I want to thank all of you for this brilliant demonstration of self-delusion. You have all been very, very good. Thank you very much.

[François Carlier]

Announcing Bart Kamp's next book : "Oswald was on Main Street", with new evidence, new photo analysis and added arrogance !
Coming soon at a store near you !

[François Carlier]

Here is a link to an interview of Billy Lovelady.

Billy Lovelady describes the colleagues who were with him on the steps of the TSBD. Listen to that carefully. No Oswald at all.

To any reasonable person, that means that Lee Oswald was not there.

Case closed.

(But to Sandy Larsen and Bart Kamp, that means that Oswald was there.)
Go figure !

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dp6p2auppnjhxsv/AADYgbYSVFae42_imLOdcaKSa/WAV Audio files 233.JFK.0022225 - five files?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

(It's not David Von Pein, it's not François Carlier, it's Billy Lovelady, who was actually there, describing the people he was with. It's important.)

Edited February 16, 2019 by François Carlier

[Guest]

The sure signs of losing a battle....putting nitpicked ‘evidence’ forward.

lovelady was owned by the TSBD lot

something that was brought forward 5 days ago already

but no let’s rehash it......as that is all you have

🤣

[Vanessa Loney]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Vanessa,

I wish you were right, but I don't think so. Please allow me to explain my thinking. If I am wrong, then show me how.

1. Oswald went outside twice. The first time was to see the presidential parade (and the shooting), and the second time to go home.
2. The question is, does the account given by Lovelady to Jarman refer to the Oswald's first exit or his second?
3. In my words, the story is that Oswald was stopped by a policeman when he attempted to exit the building, and was sent back in. Roy Truly vouched for Oswald and then he was allowed to leave. He walked on down the stairs.
4. Clearly this account is referring to the second time Oswald went outside. Right?
5. At this time the motorcade was gone and policemen were inside the TSBD. The shooting had long passed, by which I mean a number of minutes had passed.
6. Therefore we can't count Jarman's testimony as being one indicating that Oswald was on the steps during the shooting. Rather, it indicates that Oswald was on the steps when he was on his way home.

 

•  

Thanks Sandy,

I agree that's the crux of the issue. A key issue here is the 'policeman' involved. The policeman who stopped Jarman was Officer Barnett. I don't think any of this behaviour describes anything Officer Baker says he did that day. Baker heard the shots and ran straight into the building. Officer Barnett didn't even go into the building.

Jarman clearly says Lovelady said the Officer was on his way into the building when he encountered Oswald. That does describe Baker but not Barnett.

Here's the Officer's statement

This officer was W. E. Barnett of the Dallas Police Department. In a deposition to the Warren Commission on July 23, 1964 he stated…”about that time a construction worker ran from the southwest corner of the intersection (Elm and Houston) up to me and said, “I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle.” He and I and the sergeant (Howard) all three broke and ran for the door (of the School Book Depository building). I kept the man there with me. The Sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse…”…..Q. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was until the time you were at the front door…A. It was around 2½ minutes.” 

Here's Brennan's testimony.

Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do?
Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?
Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.
And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.

Here's Jarman's testimony

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Where did you see him first?
Mr. JARMAN - He was talking to a police officer.
Mr. BALL - How was he dressed?
Mr. JARMAN - He was dressed in construction clothes.
Mr. BALL - Anything else, any other way to describe him?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.
Mr. BALL - Hard-hat?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay out there very long?
Mr. JARMAN - Just a few minutes.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.
Mr. BALL - The officer did?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

 

[Vanessa Loney]

6 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Are you saying that Buell Frazier actually saw Oswald near him at the time of the shooting but was such a coward that he never dared say it to anybody, including his family, or even send an anonymous note to a journalist (and thus letting an innocent man be accused of murder), and to this day, fifty-five years later, and though he has appeared on numerous conferences, interviews, documentaries, and everything, he is still afraid that conspirators might come to harm him ?

Is that what you are saying ?

Come on, be honest, tell us.

Are you answering for David now, Francois? My question is for David and I would like to hear his response. 

Frankly, I think Frazier's words speak for themselves.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

(But to Sandy Larsen and Bart Kamp, that means that Oswald was there.

Fracois: please, count me in.

So, where do we go from here now? The living witnesses, Mr. Frazier and Mr. Lewis, should be asked who was the unknown man standing at the western wall of the Depository doorway.  Also, a letter (petition?) should be sent to the Sixth Floor Museum requesting a digital copy of just one frame of Darnell film (the one we all use, the sharpest one). The letter should point to this new evidence and ask for collaboration. I am not a US citizen and cannot help in that, however, it may be worthy to contact a member of the Congress and/or member of Oswald's or Kennedy's family to support this request. There must be a way to break the unnecessary lock-down for this film. I can help with providing an overlay of Oswald's figure onto Prayer Man and explaining why Prayer Man could only be a person 5'9'' (meaning a male and male of Oswald's body height), however, the letter could well go without any of my data. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

François Carlier has now provided us with the justification for his dogmatic assertion that "it has been proven" that Oswald was inside during the shooting:

Quote

I have two people (Marrion Baker and Roy Truly) who say that they saw Oswald inside the building. ... Besides, there is another person who provides me with confirmation : Lee Oswald himself. Yes, not only did he say to the press that he was "in the building at that time" and he never, ever said that he had been outside (neither to the press, not to his brother or wife !!!!!!), but Fritz's notes show that Oswald admitted to the second floor encounter ("claims 2nd floor Coke when officer came in").

Now, you may say that Fritz's notes are fake. But then, why would you trust Hosty's notes ?

You can pretend that Oswald was "prayer man" only by accusing Marrion Baker and Roy Truly of lying. That's bad. That's defamation. That's an easy cop out. That's really shameful.

The "proof" is this:

(a) - Baker and Truly said so, and it is inconceivable that they didn't tell the truth.
(b) - Oswald told a reporter that he was in the building when the president was shot.
(c) - Oswald never claimed that he had been outside.
(d) - According to Fritz's notes, Oswald admitted that the second-floor encounter was true.

I'm surprised that M. Carlier didn't mention Howard Brennan, one of the least reliable witnesses in the whole JFK case, who claimed that he saw Oswald in the sixth-floor window, then changed his mind, then changed his mind again.

(a) - Baker and Truly told the truth

Is it really inconceivable to M. Carlier that Baker and Truly might have been put under pressure to change their story by transposing an encounter on the first floor to the second floor? As I pointed out, we know that other aspects of the story changed over time: Oswald was said to have encountered Baker when drinking a Coke, when purchasing a Coke, when sitting at a table, and when in the vestibule. At least three of those four accounts must have been wrong.

There is a court case here in England at the moment to do with the Hillsborough disaster, in which 96 people were crushed and suffocated to death in a football stadium in 1989, largely due to the incompetence of the police who were on duty that day. There is a good account of it here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades. Its relevance to this case is that no fewer than 164 statements by police officers were found by an official investigation to have been fabricated. Almost all of these statements were fabricated not to protect the officers themselves but to protect their superiors and the institution they were part of.

Not only that, but the police repeatedly blamed the deaths on the behaviour of the victims, despite knowing that this claim was false. As in the JFK case, the false statements were repeated uncritically by the press and by politicians and others who identified with the interests of the police. Many of these people reacted to suggestions that the police may have been less than entirely honest in much the same way as M. Carlier reacted ("That's bad. That's defamation. That's an easy cop out. That's really shameful.").

As bad as the South Yorkshire police were in the 1980s, the Dallas police in the early 1960s were worse. Will Fritz famously had a 98% conviction rate, not because his officers were super-human investigators or because the criminals in Dallas were especially incompetent, but because of the institutional culture which involved, among many other things, falsifying evidence. Twisting the arms of Baker and Truly would have been utterly trivial when compared to what else the Dallas police routinely got up to. Several witnesses in the JFK case claimed to have been put under pressure to either keep quiet or change their stories, including Buell Frazier, as Vanessa Loney points out on page 21 (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25532-then-went-outside-to-watch-the-p-parade/?do=findComment&comment=394708). What's so special about Baker and Truly?

(b) - Oswald admitted that he was in the building

Bart Kamp dealt with that one earlier, on page 2 of this thread (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25532-then-went-outside-to-watch-the-p-parade/?do=findComment&comment=394161😞

Quote

Reporter: inaudible as another reporter is asking “Did you shoot The President”

Oswald: “I work in that building”

Reporter: “Where you in the building at the time?”

Oswald: “Naturally if I work in that building, yes Sir.”

Oswald was not claiming that he was in the building when the president was shot.

(c) - Oswald "never, ever said that he had been outside"

But he did. That's what this whole thread is about! Oswald specifically stated that he went outside to watch the parade. As I pointed out, Oswald's statement is consistent with statements by Carolyn Arnold, James Jarman, Harold Norman and Billy Lovelady, not to mention the Darnell and Wiegman films. There is a solid body of evidence to support what we now know Oswald to have claimed: that he visited the second floor briefly, that he descended to the first floor, that he saw Jarman and Norman enter the building at around 12:25, and that he finally went outside to watch the parade.

(d) - Fritz's notes

Here is the relevant section of the notes in full:

Quote

claims 2nd Floor coke when
off came in
to 1st fl had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in
front

A perfectly reasonable interpretation of these notes is that Oswald is claiming that he got a Coke from the second floor, and that when the officer entered the first floor of the building Oswald was having his lunch outside, at the front of the building, and that Bill Shelley was there too. The only element which differs from Hosty's version is that, according to Fritz, Oswald may have claimed that he was still having his lunch while standing outside watching the parade. The person in the doorway who looks like Oswald may well have been having his lunch; he appears to have something in his hand, and a Coke bottle was later photographed in that location on the steps. There is no significant discrepancy between Hosty's notes and Fritz's.

Who is claiming that Fritz's notes were faked? I certainly didn't. If the notes contain inaccuracies, that might be because they were written after the event and were based on James Bookhout's notes (which no longer exist, unless they are sitting in the National Archives, waiting to be discovered), as Sean Murphy pointed out in 2013: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/20354-oswald-leaving-tsbd/?page=40.

"It has been proven that he was inside"

Does M. Carlier really think that what he has put forward amounts to "proof"? It is nothing of the sort. As any rational person can see, it has not remotely been proven that Oswald was inside during the shooting. There is some evidence which suggests that he was inside, and there is some evidence which suggests that he was outside. If someone thinks that the first set of evidence makes more sense to them than the second set, fine. But it does not amount to proof of anything.

François Carlier's "proof" is merely his subjective interpretation of an ambiguous body of evidence. The fact that he puts this subjective interpretation forward as a dogmatic assertion tells us that he is seriously lacking in critical thinking skills, and that his mental processes are no different from those of a religious fundamentalist.

[François Carlier]

9 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Are you answering for David now, Francois? My question is for David and I would like to hear his response. 

Frankly, I think Frazier's words speak for themselves.

I see you didn't answer.
That's probably because you can't !

[Vanessa Loney]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Vanessa,

I wish you were right, but I don't think so. Please allow me to explain my thinking. If I am wrong, then show me how.

1. Oswald went outside twice. The first time was to see the presidential parade (and the shooting), and the second time to go home.
2. The question is, does the account given by Lovelady to Jarman refer to the Oswald's first exit or his second?
3. In my words, the story is that Oswald was stopped by a policeman when he attempted to exit the building, and was sent back in. Roy Truly vouched for Oswald and then he was allowed to leave. He walked on down the stairs.
4. Clearly this account is referring to the second time Oswald went outside. Right?
5. At this time the motorcade was gone and policemen were inside the TSBD. The shooting had long passed, by which I mean a number of minutes had passed.
6. Therefore we can't count Jarman's testimony as being one indicating that Oswald was on the steps during the shooting. Rather, it indicates that Oswald was on the steps when he was on his way home.

 

•  

And here's the rest of Brennan's testimony. Nothing about going into the building.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir?
Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there?
Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.
Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?
Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.

Brennan then went downtown where he failed to identify Oswald in a line up btw.

 

[Vanessa Loney]

9 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

I see you didn't answer.
That's probably because you can't !

With all due respect Francois, you are a numpty.

David, what do you have to say about Frazier?