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Bart Kamp

Then went outside to watch the P. parade

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16 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Frazier says his family were threatened. 

When did Buell Wesley Frazier ever say that his family was "threatened" (your word)? Please point that out to me.

And if you're talking about this 2013 interview with Frazier, you're wrong. Because Frazier most certainly did not say that his family had been "threatened" by anyone. He was merely speculating about what he thought could happen to his family if others besides Oswald were involved in JFK's murder.

You, Vanessa, are reading something into Frazier's words that simply are not there (if you are referring to that 2013 interview, that is).

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

1. Callaway had to ask Benavides what had happened.

2.  Callaway had to ask him which way the perpetrator fled so he could chase him.

Of course Callaway needed to ask those questions.

Why?

Because Ted Callaway DID NOT SEE THE ACTUAL SHOOTING OF OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT WHEN IT WAS OCCURRING. Callaway saw only the aftermath. And he needed to confirm that the guy he did see (Oswald) was the ONLY shooter.

How was Callaway supposed to know those things from a block away? Mental telepathy?

Geesh, use your head, man. This is incredibly obvious stuff.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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14 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Do you move even slightly from 'beyond all reasonable doubt' when faced with two pieces of contradictory evidence?

Yes. (Slightly.) :) 

But it's going to take a LOT more than that Ochus Campbell contradiction to get me to believe that Lee Oswald was located in a storage room on the first floor at the time of JFK's death. For one thing, Campbell's story seems to change slightly again when you read the 11/23 Dallas Morning News. In that particular newspaper story, it's implied that it was NOT Campbell who actually saw Oswald in the "storage room", but it was Roy Truly and a policeman instead. The DMN says Campbell was running toward the Grassy Knoll at that time. So the story in the Dallas Morning News about the "storage room" doesn't match the New York Herald Tribune story at all.

So I think there's some major conflation of the facts (plus some erroneous "facts") in BOTH of those newspaper accounts involving Mr. Ochus Campbell.

Edited by David Von Pein

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6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I said this already.

A friend of mine asked Frazier this question about three years ago.

He said that he could not answer due to the poor quality of the photo.

Take that for what you think its worth.

Yeah, but what was the EXACT question that Frazier was asked?....

Was he asked: Is this person [Prayer Man] Lee Oswald?

Or was he asked: Do you know who this person in the doorway is?

That could make a big difference in the response you'd get from Buell Frazier.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

But it's going to take a LOT more than that Ochus Campbell contradiction to get me to believe that Lee Oswald was located in a storage room on the first floor at the time of JFK's death.

How did the Dallas Morning News know there was "a storage room on the first floor" ?

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7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Now, since I showed FC that Calloway is not the witness he makes him out to be, let me deal with what he discounts: the radio log messages.

Here are the questions they pose, which FC wants to ignore.

First, why did it take three passes to get anything like a complete account of the messages?

Why did the officers listening to the messages fail to find the one directing Tippit to Oak Cliff even though they had two weeks to do so?

If both Nelson and Tippit were directed to Oak Cliff on one message, why did Nelson go to Dealey Plaza instead?

Murray Jackson, in a private interview, later said that he sent Tippit and Nelson there because  because there was a drainage of officers from the area.  But 1.) There was an officer there already, Mentzel, and 2.) There was no crime in process reported there at the time, 3.) There was no direct acknowledgement of the order, you know like "Copy".

Why did the WC never interview Nelson in order to ask him why he apparently disobeyed the order to go to Oak Cliff?

Why did the WC never interview Jackson to explain why he sent them to Oak Cliff?

 

 

So please FC do not claim that somehow the Tippit case shows that Oswald shot Kennedy because he shot Tippit.

Something was askew here and that is why the WC did not investigate it.  For fear of what they would discover.

As attorney Allard Lowenstein said about the RFK case: In my experience, people with nothing to hide don't hide things.

I am awaiting for an FC reply.

I posted this seven hours ago.

Oh I forgot, gay Paree.   Viva La France!

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1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

How did the Dallas Morning News know there was "a storage room on the first floor" ?

That's a fair question. (And, yes, I know what you're implying by asking that question. I'm not quite as stupid as most CTers want to believe.) :)

And I don't have an answer to your question, Tony. I have no idea. But, as I stated in a previous post, I definitely do think there was some "conflation" of the facts going on in those early stories that were being printed in the various newspapers around the country and being broadcast on TV and radio.

It's my belief that the Dallas Morning News article is really describing the encounter with Oswald that took place on the second floor, not "in a storage room on the first floor". But the DMN, quite obviously, must have gotten the (erroneous) info about the "storage room" from somebody. They certainly didn't just make it up out of whole cloth.

So, yes, somebody told someone from the DMN that a policeman had stopped Oswald on the first floor. Who provided that information to the DMN? I haven't the foggiest. Maybe it was Ochus Campbell. I don't know. Do you know? Does anybody?

But, to me, there is ample corroboration between both Marrion Baker and Roy Truly to verify and prove that the one and only "encounter" that Officer Baker had with any person (i.e., suspect) inside the Book Depository occurred on the second floor and no other floor.

The above paragraph is either true---or the conspiracy theorists who think otherwise are going to have to do some picking-and-choosing of their own when it comes to which first-day story they want to believe....i.e.,

Do CTers want to believe what was printed in the Dallas Morning News on Saturday morning, November 23, 1963, which says that an "officer", with his "gun drawn"...."spotted Oswald"...."in a storage room on the first floor"?

Or do conspiracists want to believe Marrion Baker's 11/22/63 signed affidavit, which states that Baker encountered a man on "the third or fourth floor"?

They can't both be accurate, right? So one of those two accounts must be wrong. Although, strangely enough, it seems as though many conspiracy theorists seem to want to embrace both of those accounts as being the absolute truth. ~shrug~

Or, as an alternative, do CTers want to believe that there were really TWO different "encounters" between police officers and suspects within the TSBD on 11/22/63, with one of those encounters occurring on the 3rd or 4th floor, while another encounter (involving, apparently, a policeman who was not Marrion L. Baker) occurred "in a storage room on the first floor"?

It looks to me as if the CTers also have a choice to make as far as the things they want to accept as "true" vs. "erroneous" when it comes to evaluating some of the first-day information that was being revealed in the newspapers and in affidavits.

And, as everyone knows, erroneous information gets published and broadcast on television and radio all the time. And there were quite a few mistakes that made it "on the air" concerning this (JFK) case [see the video below].

 

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

[...]
It looks to me as if the CTers also have a choice to make as far as the things they want to accept as "true" vs. "erroneous" when it comes to evaluating some of the first-day information that was being revealed in the newspapers and in affidavits.

And, as everyone knows, erroneous information gets published and broadcast on television and radio all the time. And there were quite a few mistakes that made it "on the air" concerning this (JFK) case [see the video below].

yep, like what rifle was used in the assassination? Dallas Official stating he can't get Oswald in the 6th floor window at 1230 11/22/63.  Nearly every piece of film/photo altered - originals lost, chain of possession non-existant. If the case was brought today MARK LANE WOULD BE YOUR SUPREME NIGHTMARE, he'd have Vinnie da Bugliosi dancing on the head of a pin the entire case, if, IF any of the alleged WCR "evidence" were to be admitted. You are sitting on a disaster and know it.

 

And we haven't got to the SBT/Tippit/LHO did it all by his lonesome yet!

Edited by David G. Healy

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21 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Where did you get that info? Does Edu. Forum offer detailed analytics on every thread? (Or ---- Don't tell me you actually went through all 23 pages and counted the posts by hand? You didn't really do that, did you? Surely not.) :)

Well Dave, the forum does provide the total number of posts for a topic.  I used the scroll button on my mouse and just started counting 1-2-3-4, 96-96-97 every time I saw you or franciss name.  Didn't come close to 5 minutes.  I certainly didn't waste any time reading yours or his posts.  His I pretty well skip over.  Yours I generally skim and ignore.  But there are so many by the two of you it seems you're quite upset by the three references to Oswald being (likely briefly) out front when JFK was shot.  I mean, it gives credence to the possibility of Oswald being Prayerman, and that would really upset your apple carts.   

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According to Walt Brown's book, The Warren Omission, Campbell was not deposed by the WC.

Is that really true?

He is mentioned a couple of times in the WR though, right?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

It's my belief that the Dallas Morning News article is really describing the encounter with Oswald that took place on the second floor, not "in a storage room on the first floor". But the DMN, quite obviously, must have gotten the (erroneous) info about the "storage room" from somebody. They certainly didn't just make it up out of whole cloth.

So, yes, somebody told someone from the DMN that a policeman had stopped Oswald on the first floor. Who provided that information to the DMN? I haven't the foggiest. Maybe it was Ochus Campbell. I don't know. Do you know? Does anybody?

At this point in time, we can not determine if the DMN article is "erroneous".

But we can be fairly sure if "in a storage room on the first floor" originated with Campbell, he would know the difference between that room near the front stairs and the lunchroom on the second floor.

The fact that the "storage room" was mentioned may mean that obscure room was reported in connection with an incident.

The incident did not happen outside the storage room, which would have been reported as having taken place in the lobby. It was a reported incident IN the storage room.

Now, the article directly connects the "officer, gun drawn" as the same person seen with Truly. This officer, if we picture the article, appears to have entered the lobby with Truly, and whose attention has been drawn to the storage room by the front stairs. 

The article implies that Oswald was inside that storage room

So both CTers and LNers may have a problem with this scenario

From a CT perspective, why has Oswald moved from the landing to inside that storage room?

 

The picture below shows the front entrance and the storage room together from the same vantage point

file.php?id=299257

 

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32 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

At this point in time, we can not determine if the DMN article is "erroneous".

But we can be fairly sure if "in a storage room on the first floor" originated with Campbell, he would know the difference between that room near the front stairs and the lunchroom on the second floor.

The fact that the "storage room" was mentioned may mean that obscure room was reported in connection with an incident.

The incident did not happen outside the storage room, which would have been reported as having taken place in the lobby. It was a reported incident IN the storage room.

Now, the article directly connects the "officer, gun drawn" as the same person seen with Truly. This officer, if we picture the article, appears to have entered the lobby with Truly, and whose attention has been drawn to the storage room by the front stairs. 

The article implies that Oswald was inside that storage room

So both CTers and LNers may have a problem with this scenario

From a CT perspective, why has Oswald moved from the landing to inside that storage room?

 

The picture below shows the front entrance and the storage room together from the same vantage point

file.php?id=299257

 

Strictly from memory.  One picture does not preclude the other.  TSBD Asst. Manager Campbell did not say he saw O. In the storage room when he was walking in but outside it. Campbell has been discussed in detail on the forum, jfkfacts or elsewhere before.  The New York paper article was by a reporter for them on site 11/22/63, directly from Campbell, published in their next day morning edition, and the Dallas reporter heard it in progress, or both may have overheard Campbell talking with police that afternoon.  In either case it is a first hand statement by Campbell on 11/22/63.  Which after time he chose to change.

If O. followed Shelly and Lovelady in immediately on their way to be seen by Vicki Adams by the first floor elevator and building electrical control panel it makes sense.  He paused there after already being confronted by Baker and Truly, the light went off, and he ran.

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I repeat my question:

According to Walt Brown's book, The Warren Omission, Campbell was not deposed by the WC.

Is that really true?

He is mentioned a couple of times in the WR though, right?

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The New York paper article was by a reporter for them on site 11/22/63, directly from Campbell, published in their next day morning edition, and the Dallas reporter heard it in progress, or both may have overheard Campbell talking with police that afternoon.  In either case it is a first hand statement by Campbell on 11/22/63

Thanks, thats info I didn't have.

but I keep reading "IN" the storage room

New York Herald Tribune 11/23/63

NYHT-11-23-63.jpg

Edited by Tony Krome

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According to Walt Brown's book, The Warren Omission, Campbell was not deposed by the WC.

Is that really true?

He is mentioned a couple of times in the WR though, right?

 

You'd think for sure the WC would invite him. He was right there on Elm, was associated with an Oswald sighting newspaper article and was one of the TSBD top brass. I've only seen two reports in the WR concerning him, one 63 FBI statement and a follow up 64 voluntary statement

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