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Bart Kamp

Then went outside to watch the P. parade

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4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

According to Walt Brown's book, The Warren Omission, Campbell was not deposed by the WC.

Is that really true?

He is mentioned a couple of times in the WR though, right? 

When looking this up in the Warren Report, I noticed a rare error in the WCR's Index, where it says "O.V. Campbell" is mentioned on three pages of the Warren Report, including Pages 334-335. But when going to p.334-35, we find it's not "O.V. Campbell" being mentioned at all, but instead it's Don Campbell on those two pages. So O.V. Campbell is mentioned only once in reality---on p.154.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0452b.htm

Edited by David Von Pein

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17 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Thanks Sandy,

I agree that's the crux of the issue. A key issue here is the 'policeman' involved. The policeman who stopped Jarman was Officer Barnett. I don't think any of this behaviour describes anything Officer Baker says he did that day. Baker heard the shots and ran straight into the building. Officer Barnett didn't even go into the building.

 

Vanessa,

 

I personally believe that the policeman who stopped Oswald at the front door was Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky.

After the assassination, George Lumpkin returned to the TSBD and took command there.

DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 page 22.

It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

image.png.08addecf24fd2c11927c27caba92e2b1.png

image.png.536b54b84572a0c033703b3e7bb18db4.png

This matches exactly what Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes wrote in his Report of Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, November 24th.

See Warren Report, Appendix XI page 636

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

image.png.c325f90f626d58b6c42a06246aa9d167.png

According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

(It appears that Talbert had the wrong building in mind).

DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 28

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Memo from K.E. Lyon to Chief Curry dated December 4, 1963. Lyon was a Patrolman on TDY assignment to the Vice Section of the Special Service Bureau. However, Lyon is not listed in the patrolmen assigned to the Special Service Bureau in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002 - https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

On November 22, 1963 at approximately 2:00 PM, Detective B.K. Carroll and I were instructed by Lieutenant E. Kaminsky to go to the Oak Cliff area where Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot.”

K.E. Lyon was in the squad car bringing Oswald back to the station from the Theater. Lyon is listed as one of the arresting officers on Oswald's Arrest Report.

He's a little off on his time. By 2:00 PM, Oswald had already been arrested and brought back to the station.

DPD Archives, Box 3, Folder# 2, Item# 52

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm

Bob K. Carroll was a Detective in the Administrative Section of the Special Service Bureau. In a signed memo to Chief Curry, he wrote: “At approximately 2:00PM this date the undersigned officer were (sic) enroute to the vicinity of the 300 block of West Jefferson to aid in the search of the killer of Officer J.D. Tippit.” (Though the memo is undated, he writes “this date”, so it must have been written on the 22nd.)

Lyon makes the same mistake on time in his memo of December 4th as Carroll did in his memo of November 22nd. They also both spell Gerald Hill's name as “Jerry” Hill.

So, by 2:00PM, Kaminsky has left the TSBD where Lumpkin had stationed him at the front door collecting names, and had returned to Headquarters where he was able to instruct Carroll and Lyon to proceed to Oak Cliff.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas

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Ron Bulman said:

It's interesting to note that out of 331 posts on this thread, 117 of them, over one third, are by Dave and Frank [aka Francois Carlier].

 

David Von Pein said:

Where did you get that info? Does Edu. Forum offer detailed analytics on every thread? (Or ---- Don't tell me you actually went through all 23 pages and counted the posts by hand? You didn't really do that, did you? Surely not.) :)

 

Ron Bulman said:

Well Dave, the forum does provide the total number of posts for a topic. I used the scroll button on my mouse and just started counting 1-2-3-4, 96-96-97 [sic] every time I saw you or [Francois'] name. Didn't come close to 5 minutes.

Ten-Four. I was just curious if this forum offered up some kind of "Thread Participant Statistics" or something like that there.

But thanks for admitting you performed such a meaningless manual mathematics task in order to try and bash Francois and myself some more. Good job!

 

Ron Bulman said:

I certainly didn't waste any time reading yours or his posts. His I pretty well skip over. Yours I generally skim and ignore.

Yeah, I usually do that same thing when I see your posts too----"skim & ignore".

 

Ron Bulman said:

But there are so many by the two of you, it seems you're quite upset by the three references to Oswald being (likely briefly) out front when JFK was shot. I mean, it gives credence to the possibility of Oswald being Prayerman, and that would really upset your apple carts.

I'm not "upset" in the least. I'm actually kind of pleased that this thread was started, because it has given me some opportunities to add some of my thoughts about certain aspects of the case that I don't think I had yet archived at my website in the past ---- such as these comments concerning Buell Wesley Frazier, which have arisen in this thread....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-arguments-part-1308.html#The-Rough-Treatment-Of-Buell-Wesley-Frazier

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-arguments-part-1308.html#Frazier-2002-Bombshell

My "Part 1308" is getting to be pert-near as long a page as Part 1058 (the "Hidell Money Order" discussion, which I think has the current record for "longest page" on my site at this time; that one takes about a year-and-a-half to read [~wink~]; but it's worth it, because it's such a fun battle, with more twists and turns and conspiracists in denial than a whole month's worth of posts at EF & DPF combined!). :)

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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That is some nice work Steve.

I would have to agree with you then, it was likely Kaminsky.  And it sure looks like it was on the first floor, "inner door of the building".

 

And man, its really something that Campbell was not deposed.  Its really hard to think such a thing occurred.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Vanessa,

 

I personally believe that the policeman who stopped Oswald at the front door was Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky.

After the assassination, George Lumpkin returned to the TSBD and took command there.

DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10 page 22.

It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

image.png.08addecf24fd2c11927c27caba92e2b1.png

image.png.536b54b84572a0c033703b3e7bb18db4.png

This matches exactly what Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes wrote in his Report of Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, November 24th.

See Warren Report, Appendix XI page 636

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

image.png.c325f90f626d58b6c42a06246aa9d167.png

According to the Dispatch Tapes, George Lumpkin had arrived at the TSBD by 12:49 PM

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

15 (Captain C.E. Talbert): “15 is at the scene. We... the building's the Old Purse Company on the east side of Houston. Somebody cut off the back side, will you? Make sure nobody leaves there.”

Dispatcher: “10-4, 15”

15: “15's in charge down here. Correction 5's (Deputy Chief Lumpkin) in charge.”

(It appears that Talbert had the wrong building in mind).

DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 28

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Memo from K.E. Lyon to Chief Curry dated December 4, 1963. Lyon was a Patrolman on TDY assignment to the Vice Section of the Special Service Bureau. However, Lyon is not listed in the patrolmen assigned to the Special Service Bureau in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002 - https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

On November 22, 1963 at approximately 2:00 PM, Detective B.K. Carroll and I were instructed by Lieutenant E. Kaminsky to go to the Oak Cliff area where Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot.”

K.E. Lyon was in the squad car bringing Oswald back to the station from the Theater. Lyon is listed as one of the arresting officers on Oswald's Arrest Report.

He's a little off on his time. By 2:00 PM, Oswald had already been arrested and brought back to the station.

DPD Archives, Box 3, Folder# 2, Item# 52

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm

Bob K. Carroll was a Detective in the Administrative Section of the Special Service Bureau. In a signed memo to Chief Curry, he wrote: “At approximately 2:00PM this date the undersigned officer were (sic) enroute to the vicinity of the 300 block of West Jefferson to aid in the search of the killer of Officer J.D. Tippit.” (Though the memo is undated, he writes “this date”, so it must have been written on the 22nd.)

Lyon makes the same mistake on time in his memo of December 4th as Carroll did in his memo of November 22nd. They also both spell Gerald Hill's name as “Jerry” Hill.

So, by 2:00PM, Kaminsky has left the TSBD where Lumpkin had stationed him at the front door collecting names, and had returned to Headquarters where he was able to instruct Carroll and Lyon to proceed to Oak Cliff.

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve. I take your point about Kaminsky. So Jarman was wrong when he said it was the same police officer who stopped him and Oswald. Jarman was stopped by Barnett and Oswald possibly by Kaminsky. Although I note that Holmes doesn't mention that Truly was identifying employees so that part at least doesn't gell.

Lovelady says that after leaving the steps he re-entered the building through a back entrance and waited around on the first floor for 30 minutes before going up to the 6th floor with the DPD. He doesn't mention returning to the steps.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
 

So has Jarman simply conflated his story with what Lovelady told him and confused the times?

The only issue here that gives me pause is that Jarman says that Lovelady was on the steps when the incident with the police officer and Oswald occurred. The only time Lovelady was on the steps, according to him, was before the shooting.

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52 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Thanks Steve. I take your point about Kaminsky. So Jarman was wrong when he said it was the same police officer who stopped him and Oswald. Jarman was stopped by Barnett and Oswald possibly by Kaminsky. Although I note that Holmes doesn't mention that Truly was identifying employees so that part at least doesn't gell.

 

Vanessa,

 

I think he did.

If, during his interrogation, Oswald said, "his boss" was the person identifying those being stopped as being "one of our employees", who else but Truly, could Oswald have been referring to?

And, Oswald could not have known that there was a policeman stationed at the front door taking names unless he was there to witness that happening firsthand.

My question has always been: if Lumpkin didn't arrive back at the TSBD from Parkland Hospital until at least until the few minutes before 12:49 in time to plaace Kaminsky at the front door; if Oswald was the shooter; it's not why Oswald left the TSBD so quickly, but why did he wait around at the scene of the crime for so long?

In my mind,

1) Oswald did not leave the TSBD immediately after the shooting; and

2) He was not the only employee missing; and

3) Truly totally failed to mention his actions at the front door when he testified to the Warren Commission.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve, Bart, I look at this case one of two ways based on my education.  The first is as a lawyer.  The second is as a historian-my graduate school and undergraduate school prior to law school.  What frustrates me is often there is an alleged find that when examined under either of the above backgrounds it fails.  

Here, however, I think you are on to something.

Good work, keep it up.  I will be reading.

Edited by Cory Santos

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10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And man, its really something that Campbell was not deposed.  Its really hard to think such a thing occurred.

Jim,

 

I don't know about being deposed, but James Leavelle did take a statement from Campbell on February 17, 1964.

(A lot of good that would do)

You can read it at the DPD Archives Box 3, Folder# 19, Item# 4  http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

In his statement, he said, "I did not know Oswald."

Oswald could hardly have said to Harry Homes, "...his boss stated he is one of our employees.", if he was talking about Campbell.

PS: Campbell told Leavelle he thought the shots came from the grassy knoll.

Steve Thomas

 

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So Bart, do you think this is the same source as the New York HT story?

 

Here it looks like Biffle's source might be Truly.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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So you are saying  that on the first day Truly contradicted the second floor lunch room encounter?  That is important.

When did he first adhere to the later scenario?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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In the evening of the 22nd.

The 2FLRE did not become public until 11-12AM on the 23rd.

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=> The Carlier challenge to James DiEugenio :

If you can prove that "prayer man" is Lee Oswald, I'll eat my book live on line, naked under a thunderstorm.

If you fail to prove that and realize that you had been wrong all along and Oswald was actually inside the building, I challenge you to do the same : eat your last book live, naked under a thunderstorm.

Deal ?

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