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Bart Kamp

Then went outside to watch the P. parade

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29 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But, Tony, Oswald's response to the reporters in the TV news film generally matches the alibi that Oswald gave to Dallas Police Captain Will Fritz that same day, with Oswald telling Fritz that he was "having his lunch about that time [of the assassination] on the first floor" (Warren Report; Pg. 600).

Fritz never said that Oswald told him that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" or "standing on the top step in front of the building with Wesley Frazier" as the assassination was taking place. Oswald specifically said that he was inside the building on the first floor (which was a big fat lie, of course). But, per CTers, I guess I'm supposed to believe that Captain Fritz was the person telling a bunch of lies, instead of Mr. Oswald.

But the main point I always stress to CTers when this topic comes up is....

When given several chances to shout out to the world (via the live television cameras and microphones that were being shoved in his face on both November 22nd and 23rd at Dallas City Hall), Lee Harvey Oswald never uttered a word about being on the front steps of the Book Depository at precisely 12:30 PM on November 22.

Don't you think that's mighty strange if Lee Oswald had, in fact, been located on those steps when JFK was being killed?

Dave, can you please direct me to part where they asked Oswald if he heard any rifle shots or how many shots he heard?

If Oswald was having his lunch "about that time" at the rear of the building, as the notes imply, what could clearly be heard from there?

Was he eating his lunch when he faintly heard the same backfiring of Harleys that Frazier heard as the motorcade approached, then began to walk out to watch the parade? 

Did Oswald arrive at the front door area just as people were yelling and running around and therefore was not remembered by his colleagues as being a spectator in their company?

Did Oswald later equate the faintly heard backfiring as possible gunshots, so he therefore answered Fritz's question as "was having his lunch about that time on the first floor"

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Dave, can you please direct me to [the] part where they asked Oswald if he heard any rifle shots or how many shots he heard?

You know, Tony, that's an interesting point you just brought up. I don't think I've ever heard this discussed before --- i.e., whether Oswald himself was ever asked any of the questions that the eyewitnesses and earwitnesses were all asked --- e.g., How many shots (if any) did you hear?, Where did the shots come from?, Did you see any strangers in the building?, etc.

As far as I am aware, Oswald was never subjected to that type of "witness" questioning. But I think it would be fascinating to hear Oswald's answers to such questions. It makes me curious as to what type of lies he would have come up with if Captain Fritz had dished up those kinds of questions for Oswald to answer.

But even if Oswald were totally innocent, we can be pretty certain that he definitely was aware, even before he left the building, that the President had been shot (or at least shot at). And the reason we can know that Oswald knew this fact is because TSBD employee Mrs. Robert Reid told Oswald "the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him". (That sentence, as phrased by Mrs. Reid, makes no sense whatsoever, of course. But that's what Reid said she said to Oswald on the second floor within minutes of the shooting. It's likely, though, that Reid probably meant to say the word "kill" instead of "hit".)

 

Quote

If Oswald was having his lunch "about that time" at the rear of the building, as the notes imply, what could clearly be heard from there?

Was he eating his lunch when he faintly heard the same backfiring of Harleys that Frazier heard as the motorcade approached, then began to walk out to watch the parade? 

Did Oswald arrive at the front door area just as people were yelling and running around and therefore was not remembered by his colleagues as being a spectator in their company?

Did Oswald later equate the faintly heard backfiring as possible gunshots, so he therefore answered Fritz's question as "was having his lunch about that time on the first floor"

Well, Tony, you have to remember that my opinion about the statements that Lee Harvey Oswald made to Captain Fritz are totally different from the opinions of most conspiracy theorists when it comes to evaluating those exact same statements uttered by LHO. (That is, if you're inclined to believe that Oswald made any such "I was on the first floor" statement to Fritz in the first place, which many CTers do not believe; they think Fritz just made up all, or most, of Oswald's statements.)

My opinion is (and has been for decades) that Oswald was lying through his teeth when he told Captain J.W. Fritz that he was on the first floor having his lunch about the time of the assassination, because I firmly believe (based on a whole bunch of evidence in the case) that he was up on Floor #6 firing three rifle shots at the President.

So if you're trying to get me to look at Oswald's utterances from the POV of Lee being a completely innocent patsy and being on the first floor enjoying a leisurely lunch at 12:30 on Nov. 22, I won't be able to help you much there. Because the evidence indicates to me quite the opposite.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Lee Oswald's statements as recorded by James Hosty fit well with what we see in film documents. Lee Oswald came into the doorway a bit late. Thus, he was on the first floor, which means inside the building, during the shooting. However, he was in the doorway just seconds after the final shot rang out and he, therefore, saw the tail of the motorcade. The Hosty's handwritten notes taken by him during the first interrogation session at 3.15 on Friday, November 22, clear any doubts about Oswald movements during the assassination.

As per other employees not confirming Oswald's alibi: it is sufficient to see how Mr. Frazier responds to that question. He can still be asked by a grand jury to say who the person standing less than 3 feet away from him was. But no evasions or l.i.e.s, please: we know how tall Prayer Man was, what was the colour of his hair, his hairline, his posture, and his clothes.

Also, what about Mrs. Sarah Stanton denying in her official statements seeing Oswald but then telling her family about talking to Oswald as he was coming to buy the Coke minutes before the assassination? And what about Judy McCully who was "advised" by the FBI to report that she was outside the building while she was on the 4th floor?  

James Hosty was fully aware of the significance of Lee's statement about going to watch the parade and this is the reason for omitting this information in his book. Should he write in his book that Oswald went out to see the parade, the next thing would be: well, then let us inspect the visual evidence from the period just following the shooting if we can find him there. And we can. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

we know how tall Prayer Man was, what was the colour of his hair, his hairline, his posture, and his clothes.

How on Earth can we possibly KNOW all of those details from such a poor-quality image?

Answer --- We can't know.

And "colour of his hair"?? From a black-and-white film clip?? Come now.

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So, Andrej, you must think Roy Truly and Marrion Baker were l-i-a-r-s then, right? Both men corroborated each other about encountering Oswald on the 2nd floor just after the shooting. But you think they BOTH lied their tails off???

Please tell me why they'd each do something like that?

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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15 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But even if Oswald were totally innocent, we can be pretty certain that he definitely was aware, even before he left the building, that the President had been shot (or at least shot at). And the reason we can know that Oswald knew this fact is because TSBD employee Mrs. Robert Reid told Oswald "the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him". (That sentence, as phrased by Mrs. Reid, makes no sense whatsoever, of course. But that's what Reid said she said to Oswald on the second floor within minutes of the shooting. It's likely, though, that Reid probably meant to say the word "kill" instead of "hit".)

Or maybe the omission of "at"

"the President has been shot [at], but maybe they didn't hit him".

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22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

How on Earth can we possibly KNOW all of those details from such a poor-quality image?

Answer --- We can't know.

And "colour of his hair"?? From a black-and-white film clip?? Come now.

David:

1. As per body height - please see my 3D reconstructions of the doorway and Prayer Man's figure. If you do not trust computer programs, please subtract 10 inches (the height of human head for a person 6')  from Mr. Frazier's body height and you get the height of the top of Prayer Man's head above the top landing. Prayer Man stood with his right foot on the seconds step, so 5'2'' + 7'' = 5'9'' (Oswald's body height).

2. The shirt: Oswald had a light-red shirt on himself during the period of assassination, and changed it for a dark red-brown shirt at his North Beckley rooming house. If you convert the coloured version of this light-red shirt into greyscale, you get the grey we see in the black-and-white version of this shirt in WC exhibits, and on Prayer Man in Darnell. Of course, few light colours may give a similar grey tone, but it could not be a white shirt or yellow shirt or black shirt or dark green/blue/red. Oswald's pants he wore on Friday morning were grey and loose and match well Prayer Man's pants.

3. The same with hair colour: Prayer Man's colour would only match dark brown or black hair, not blond or grey (like Mrs. Stanton's hair).

4. The posture: well, the only way Prayer Man could stand in Darnell was with one foot on the top step, this foot being forward, and the left leg slightly bent in the knee joint. He would rest his body on his right foot which was stretched and slightly backwards. Lee can be seen standing this was in numerous photographs, even in the picture with David Ferrie as a Civil Patrol cadet. 

All points have been discussed in detail in various Prayer Man threads, no point bringing this on here.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

So if you're trying to get me to look at Oswald's utterances from the POV of Lee being a completely innocent patsy and being on the first floor enjoying a leisurely lunch at 12:30 on Nov. 22, I won't be able to help you much there. Because the evidence indicates to me quite the opposite.

 

Nobody said "leisurely lunch". Like I argued before, if Oswald ever claimed to be in a lunchroom at the time of the shooting, then this could indicate personal tension towards JFK for being loved by the public despite taking public responsibility for all the babykilling overseas. But that's only if Oswald was a real socialist instead of a shill.

Edited by Micah Mileto

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15 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

I wonder what DVP and the Frenchie will have to say about it.

Hello Mister Mitcham.
Just passing by.
I'm sorry, I have been away for a while, because I have so much work to do.
But I intend to come back soon, since I have some interetsing things to say, indeed.
Now, just what is your question ? You want to know what I have to say about the document uploaded by David Josephs that stipulates that Oswald acknowledged that he did have an encounter with Marrion Baker et Roy Truly on the second floor ?
Well, that's nothing new.
Lee Oswald was inside the building and therefore cannot be the so-called "prayer man". That's an absolute fact.
The rest is just a waste of time.

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33 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

Hello Mister Mitcham.
Just passing by.
I'm sorry, I have been away for a while, because I have so much work to do.
But I intend to come back soon, since I have some interetsing things to say, indeed.
Now, just what is your question ? You want to know what I have to say about the document uploaded by David Josephs that stipulates that Oswald acknowledged that he did have an encounter with Marrion Baker et Roy Truly on the second floor ?
Well, that's nothing new.
Lee Oswald was inside the building and therefore cannot be the so-called "prayer man". That's an absolute fact.
The rest is just a waste of time.

Do you also believe that the world is flat, Francois?

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23 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Do you also believe that the world is flat, Francois?

Of course not, but it looks like YOU do !

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

Now, just what is your question ? You want to know what I have to say about the document uploaded by David Josephs that stipulates that Oswald acknowledged that he did have an encounter with Marrion Baker et Roy Truly on the second floor ?

Francois:

It is worse than that. You know, James Hosty, the agent who had flushed an over-important note brought to the office by Lee Oswald, that guy took notes during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald at DPD headquarters right there, on Friday, 3.15 PM. And Lee was, rightly so, asked where he was during the assassination time, and he said that he had a lunch in the 1st floor lunch room, then he went to buy Coke from a machine in the 2nd floor lunchroom (to flush down that lunch) and he came back to the first floor to finish his lunch. So there he was. And he heard the noises from outside as the motorcade was passing, so he went out to view the P. parade. This is what Lee told right away when he was asked where he was when shots rang out. And that guy, Hosty, he scribbled all this on a sheet he grabbed in Fritz's office. There was a pile of blank affidavits, so he took one and wrote what Lee had said on the back of the affidavit. You would not believe, however, after more than 55 years that sheet with Hosty's handwritten notes was discovered at NARA by who else than a conspiracy researcher Malcolm Blunt. So, we have a problem here because it is an authentic record of what has been said during the very first interrogation, you know before the things could have been adjusted a little. Hosty realised later that watching P. parade had been a problem, so he did not put this information about P. parade into his book. The only problem is that some conspiracy freaks just do not stop and this is the result. Nobody can now believe that the second-floor encounter actually happened and what is worse that Oswald was shooting at the President from the sixth floor.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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To all,
One thing is sure, the shadowy, blurry figure that you call "Prayer man" is NOT Lee Oswald.
I say that with 100% certainty.
Hens will write philosophical books before you could even begin to prove otherwise.
It's hard to believe that anybody in their right mind would waste their time on such a wild goose chase. It's an utter waste of time.
It reminds me of the imaginary "Malcolm Wallace finger print" : some conspiracy theorists thought they had found evidence of a conspiracy. The truth was, they were totally wrong and just made fools of themselves (there was never any print from Wallace).
It's the same kind of mistake here. Some conspiracy theorists are deluding themselves into thinking that they have found evidence. But they'll soon disappear, when they themselves understand that they are stuck in a dead end.
(Now, I must admit that not all conspiracy theorists believe in such nonsense. Robert Groden, for instance, is adamant that Oswald was inside the building.)

Edited by François Carlier

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4 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Francois:

It is worse than that. You know, James Hosty, the agent who had flushed an over-important note brought to the office by Lee Oswald, that guy took notes during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald at DPD headquarters right there, on Friday, 3.15 PM. And Lee was, rightly so, asked where he was during the assassination time, and he said that he had a lunch in the 1st floor lunch room, then he went to buy Coke from a machine in the 2nd floor lunchroom (to flush down that lunch) and he came back to the first floor to finish his lunch. So there he was. And he heard the noises from outside as the motorcade was passing, so he went out to view the P. parade. This is what Lee told right away when he was asked where he was when shots rang out. And that guy, Hosty, he scribbled all this on a sheet he grabbed in Fritz's office. There was a pile of blank affidavits, so he took one and wrote what Lee had said on the back of the affidavit. You would not believe, however, after more than 55 years that sheet with Hosty's handwritten notes was discovered at NARA by who else than a conspiracy researcher Malcolm Blunt. So, we have a problem here because it is an authentic record of what has been said during the very first interrogation, you know before the things could have been adjusted a little. Hosty realised later that watching P. parade had been a problem, so he did not put this information about P. parade into his book. The only problem is that some conspiracy freaks just do not stop and this is the result. Nobody can now believe that the second-floor encounter actually happened and what is worse that Oswald was shooting at the President from the sixth floor.

 

Mister Stancak,
Thank you for your serious message, again. I must say that you are really a decent member here.
(though I disagree with you)
I have read your post.
Now, I'm not sure I understand your point anyway. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Oswald told the truth and did not kill JFK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if your statement was true, Oswald still said that he went outside well after the shots had been fired. Yet, the "prayer man" figure was outside before Marrion Baker entered the building. So it cannot be Oswald anyway.
 

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Francois:

So you are saying that there would be no difference between the quality of image we have now, which I would say is maybe fourth or fifth generation, and a first generation print struck off the original?

As Oprah said to Lance Armstrong, just answer yes or no.

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