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Then went outside to watch the P. parade


Guest Bart Kamp

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

If I may.
Every assassin when caught by the police will lie and refuse to admit their guilt.
Like every assassin, Oswald :
- lied about the evidence against him and anything that would point to him as being guilty
- told the truth about
all the rest, especially trivial things or things that could help him show he was innocent.
That's very simple. Can't you understand that ?
Oswald's best interest at that point was to give all possible information that could exonerate him. Of course, if he had been outside at the time of the shooting, he would have said so. He didn't.
He didn't say that he was outside, because he was inside. Period.

Indeed you may, Francois. Indeed you may.

Your argument is that Oswald told the truth about some things and lied about others.

And you're saying that the way we know when Oswald was lying was when he said anything that supports the PM argument.

And the way we know when Oswald was telling the truth was when he said anything that supports the lone nut argument.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Oswald didn't lie about everything. He told the truth when he felt that telling the truth wouldn't incriminate him in any way. Such as when he admitted that he took a bus and a cab to his roominghouse just after the assassination. And he told the truth when he told Captain Fritz that his normal working hours at the TSBD were from 8:00 AM to 4:45 PM. And he told the truth about having lived in New Orleans prior to coming to Dallas. None of those truthful facts incriminated him as a double murderer---so he didn't need to lie about them.

But whenever the subject turned to something connected directly to the murders of JFK and Officer Tippit, then Oswald turned into a Lying Machine. He lied about not owning a rifle. He lied when he said he never had said a word to Buell Frazier about wanting to go to Irving on 11/21 to get curtain rods. He lied when he said he didn't bring a large-ish package into the Depository on the morning of 11/22. He lied when he said the Backyard Photos were fakes. And he lied in that video above when he said he was "Just a patsy". And, of course, he lied when he said he never shot anyone.

But since conspiracists seem to think Lee Harvey was telling nothing but the truth in his many statements after his arrest, then they must think Lee was being truthful when he told the press at 7:55 PM CST on 11/22 that he was INSIDE the building when the President was being shot, right? CTers surely can't believe he was outside on the steps but decided to LIE to the reporters and say he was inside, correct? That would be a fairly silly thing for Mr. Oswald to want to do (and a silly thing for any CTer to believe), wouldn't it?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/Oswald's Lies (Part 1)

David, David, David.

Please my response to the Monsieur.

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1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

I prefer to think of it this way, Vanessa....

My methodology has inherent facts.

And that is a perfect example of your flawed logic. Your 'facts' are whatever you choose to call facts.

Let's discuss some actual facts then. Holmes, Fritz and now Hosty confirm that in his interrogation Oswald said he was watching the Presidential parade.

That is Oswald's alibi as presented by Holmes, Fritz and Hosty. 

Do you agree that is a fact?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

Every assassin when caught by the police will lie and refuse to admit their guilt.

"Gavrilo Princip, a native of Livno who is thought to have been a student in Belgrade, was immediately arrested at the scene and is said to have confessed."

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15 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Holmes, Fritz and now Hosty confirm that in his interrogation Oswald said he was watching the Presidential parade.

That is Oswald's alibi as presented by Holmes, Fritz and Hosty. 

Do you agree that is a fact?

Well, if Oswald actually made the statement about going out to watch the parade (which, of course, as mentioned earlier, would merely be another of LHO's lies), then such a statement SHOULD show up in some of the notes of the people who were there to hear such a statement. So there's nothing unusual about that.

But....

I don't know where you got the idea that the specific "Presidential Parade" statement shows up anywhere in the notes or reports of J.W. Fritz and Harry Holmes. As far as I know, neither Fritz nor Holmes said anything about LHO saying he watched the "P. Parade".

Please provide the citations for Fritz and Holmes saying any such thing. Thanks.

(And Fritz' "Out with Bill Shelley in front" note certainly doesn't qualify.)

Edited by David Von Pein
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4 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

And that is a perfect example of your flawed logic. Your 'facts' are whatever you choose to call facts.

Let's discuss some actual facts then. Holmes, Fritz and now Hosty confirm that in his interrogation Oswald said he was watching the Presidential parade.

That is Oswald's alibi as presented by Holmes, Fritz and Hosty. 

Do you agree that is a fact?

 

 

 

That's nitpicking.
If you want to quote Holmes, Fritz and Hosty, don't forget that they concluded that Oswald was indeed the assassin.
One thing I'd like to tell you. Watch true crime shows (Forensic files, 48 hours, come to mind, but there are others). Those are true stories with actual footage most of the time. See how killers and assassins can lie. It's amazing ! They deny reality (that's an understatement). But they sometimes tell the truth (for instance : "Yes, I do live on Lincoln Street") but always for things that have no bearing on the evidence pointing to them as the guilty party.
 

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2 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

That's nitpicking.
If you want to quote Holmes, Fritz and Hosty, don't forget that they concluded that Oswald was indeed the assassin.
One thing I'd like to tell you. Watch true crime shows (Forensic files, 48 hours, come to mind, but there are others). Those are true stories with actual footage most of the time. See how killers and assassins can lie. It's amazing ! They deny reality (that's an understatement). But they sometimes tell the truth (for instance : "Yes, I do live on Lincoln Street") but always for things that have no bearing on the evidence pointing to them as the guilty party.
 

Not nitpicking at all Francois.

This information is crucial. We now have 3 investigators confirming that Oswald claimed to be outside when the President passed by. 

Do you agree that's Oswald's alibi?

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2 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Fritz's notes have this : "Claims second floor Coke when officer came in". There you have the second floor encounter in someone's notes. But wait. Are you telling me that you all want to disbelieve Fritz"s notes and believe Hosty's notes ? On what grounds ?

Francois:

There is a difference between Hosty's and Fritz' notes. Hosty's notes are authentic, they were taken during the first interrogation on Friday, 22/11/63, 3.15PM. Hosty's notes are on the back of a DPD affidavit form which he said independently he used before his notes were discovered last week. Hosty's book closely follows the notes up to the point, and the point was that he went out to see the P. parade. You do not go to watch the parade several minutes after it had passed the building, the parade was still around.  

Oswald would not have any benefit from lying about the second-floor encounter should it ever happen - it would be silly to try to suppress it if both Truly and Baker would be able to confirm it. The point is that at 3.15PM, the cover-up was not that tight yet and the 2nd-floor encounter was not cooked properly.  

In contrast, Fritz's notes are not authentic. In the first place, he did not take any notes during the interrogation itself. He used the FBI agent Bookhout 's notes to jot down his notes at some point later, it may have been days or even weeks later, maybe just before his testimony for the Warren Commission. Those notes are already tainted and contain a reference to the second-floor encounter which is not even mentioned in Officer Baker's first testimony.

Irrespective of going out to watch P. parade, the course of events described by Agent Hosty fits with the recent report of Mrs. Sarah Stanton's family, conveyed to Mr. Doyle last June.  Mrs. Stanton said she has met Lee Oswald on stairs (most likely the stairs connecting the 1st and 2nd floor) while she was in the process of going out to watch the motorcade several minutes before the shooting. The motorcade was due 12.25PM, so it would be just minutes before 12.25PM. Lee said to Mrs. Stanton that he was only going to buy Coke for his lunch and that he would then proceed to his "room". Mrs. Stanton saw what Lee Oswald said during his first interrogation session and what James Hosty scribbled down. Lee had his Coke before the shooting and came from the first floor to the second floor to get it (as Hosty's notes say). What Mrs. Stanton could not see was that Lee then returned to the first floor - that was the "room" captured in Mrs. Stanton's statements. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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1 minute ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Not nitpicking at all Francois.

This information is crucial. We now have 3 investigators confirming that Oswald claimed to be outside when the President passed by. 

Do you agree that's Oswald's alibi?

At best, it is not an alibi, it is a statement.
Besides, they do not say that Oswald was outside "when" the president passed by. You know very well that they didn't think that Oswald was outside when Kennedy passed by, since they believed that Oswald was shooting from the sixth floor. Therefore, they couldn't have meant to say that he was outside at the time the motorcade passed by. At best, they wrote that down in an effort to quote Oswald, knowing full well that he was lying.

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7 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

We now have 3 investigators confirming that Oswald claimed to be outside when the President passed by. 

Again....

Where did Fritz and Holmes "confirm" this? What notes? What report? Please cite the links. I don't think either man ever said any such thing.

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46 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Well, if Oswald actually made the statement about going out to watch the parade (which, of course, as mentioned earlier, would merely be another of LHO's lies), then such a statement SHOULD show up in some of the notes of the people who were there to hear such a statement. So there's nothing unusual about that.

But....

I don't know where you got the idea that the specific "Presidential Parade" statement shows up anywhere in the notes or reports of J.W. Fritz and Harry Holmes. As far as I know, neither Fritz nor Holmes said anything about LHO saying he watched the "P. Parade".

Please provide the citations for Fritz and Holmes saying any such thing. Thanks.

(And Fritz' "Out with Bill Shelley in front" note certainly doesn't qualify.)

David, I'm referring to Fritz and Holmes WC testimony. I'm sure you know it.

Holmes said that Oswald said he 'had come out to this front part' at 'the front entrance to the first floor'.... That is the TSBD doorway.

Fritz said that Oswald said he came outside and 'saw all the excitement'. Oswald couldn't have seen the excitement from the 2nd floor lunchroom. It was windowless.

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