“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

I have often wondered if the Texas Theater was like my home town theater back during the days of segregation.  In our local theater the balcony area was used for black people only.  Maybe that is why the stairs were located near the entrance at the Texas Theater.  At home there was a private entrance into the balcony from outside the building.  Inside the theater there was a set of stairs leading to the balcony but, that was roped off and accessible only by black people. 

I always wanted to see a movie from the balcony.  I got to later when my brother ran the projection booth.  It was cool.  But, I don't know if I was forced to sit there.

I bring this up to show that a white person going up to the balcony area would be very noticeable if they had the same practices as our local theater in 1963.

I know from personal experience that Texas was still segregated to a certain point in 1969.  Some night clubs were private and blacks were not allowed.  In Austin there were mixed race clubs where white and black people could socialize.  But, not in Killen, Texas outside of Fort Hood.

Edited April 20, 2019 by John Butler

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please everyone, don't hijack this thread into another endless Prayer Man controversy!  This thing is long enough, and I know from past experience that you guys never stop arguing about Prayer Man.  If someone ever produces real proof, I'll be real interested, but I've yet to see anything approaching it.  Please... start your own thread.

Here is your real proof.

And It's Lee.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

Bart,

I wouldn't call that proof, but it is good evidence!  I really hope Oswald WAS outside the theater during the shooting, because that would be the quickest, simplest way to disprove the entire Warren Commission nonsense!

As for the evidence two Oswald's, or at least two people who looked like Classic Oswald, one in a white shirt (as seen by many witnesses) and one in a brown or dark red shirt (also as seen by many witnesses) were inside the TSBD, just look at this image of the white-shirted Oswald in the TSBD window:

Many people saw the Oswald in the darker shirt.

There’s also tons of evidence of two LHO’s in the Book Depository.  For example, one left in a bus and taxi, the other in a Nash Rambler.

No doubt you’ll want to tell me that one Oswald never rode on a bus and taxi.  Then how do you explain how U.S. Army civilian employee Stuart Reed just happened to take high quality color photographs on the same roll of film of the front entrance of the TSBD, WcWatters’ bus 1213, and the front of the Texas Theater just as “Lee Harvey Oswald was being dragged out.

Remarkable coincidence?  No, obviously a planned operation designed to capture the movements of one of the “Oswalds,”  i.e, the patsy.

Harvey and Lee Depart the TSBD

Edited April 20, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Butch Burroughs told author James Douglass that two Oswalds were arrested in the Texas Theater.  From p. 292-293 of JFK and the Unspeakable:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”  He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.”  Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald like he was his brother or something….”

Douglass goes on to talk about Bernard J. Haire, owner of a store just two doors away from the theater, who saw the Oswald lookalike taken out the back of the theater.  For decades, Haire thought he had seen the arrest of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

[Guest]

It is proof, your personal opinion doesn't carry any weight on this.

There is zero evidence for two Oswald's in the TSBD, if so start listing it. No doubt it can be refuted w the back of a hand....as it is worthless and can be easily explained by looking at the larger picture at play here, something I really miss seeing from a lot of people here.

You got some nerve introducing an even smudgier pic with the 6th floor hooey, than the Darnell stills. I thought it was already decided a decade or so ago that it was utter indiscernible rubbish. Why are you trying to flog this dead horse again? Sixth floor smudge indeed.

I am going to tell you something else, and you will not like this.

Had Armstrong paid better attention to Malcolm Blunt's research then he would have noticed the real stuff instead of speculating his rear off with Hansel and Gretal type innuendo. In the coming months I will release the stuff that puts the real story out, the one we at ROKC have been propagating for a few years already. 

No amount of dragon glass will even make a dent into it.

And that's it from me, I am way too occupied w the above mentioned material (scanning/archiving etc.) and forum life isn't as appealing as it used to be.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

To Bart Kamp:

I contacted John A. and asked him if he knew Malcolm Blunt. Following is John's response.

John said that he met Malcolm in the mid-1990s in Dallas. They spent a lot of time together reviewing documents and meeting people in Dallas. Malcolm traveled with John to his home in Tulsa, OK., where they spent a few days looking over John's collection of documents. 

During the next several years (1995-1999) John traveled to Adelphi, MD, where he and Malcolm met daily and visited the National Archives during working hours. At night they would return to an apartment they shared and review, and often copy, each other's documents. 

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John handled and inspected each and every item belonging to LHO that was listed on the joint FBI/DPD inventory (the National Archives no longer allows personal inspection of these items--only photographs). 

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John discovered that the DPD had sent 225 items to the FBI during the evening of 11/22/63, but 3 days later the FBI returned 455 items to the DPD. 

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John inspected the Minox camera and 1) could not open the camera to view the serial number; 2) found the camera to be unusually "heavy"; 3) had the camera weighted; 4) learned the weight of this camera was far in excess of manufacturer's specifications; 5) concluded this camera had been intentionally filled with a material that prevented the camera from opening and exposing the serial number of the camera

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John asked to see the roll of Klein's microfilm that was obtained by the FBI. The archives advised the microfilm had disappeared, and they had only a box in which the microfilm had been stored

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John copied an HSCA tape recording of Robert McKeown, during which he discussed meeting with LEE Oswald on Labor Day weekend in 1963. John realized this was the same day during which HARVEY Oswald and his wife and child were at Lake Pontchartrain with the Murrets. McKeown also discussed his close, long time personal relationship with Castro.

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John located a document (WC testimony of James Cadigan) wherein Allen Dulles had altered testimony.

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John discovered that the US Postal money order, allegedly used to pay for the Mannlicher Carcano rifle, had disappeared--there were only photographs of the money order.

** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John found a document wherein the WC agreed to accept FBI photographs of evidence in lieu of the physical evidence. This, of course, provides the opportunity to alter or manufacture any and all evidence.

Have you, Bart Kamp, ever visited the National Archives?

On one occasion, Malcolm and John drove to Rhode Island where they met and had a lobster dinner with former Marine Richard Cyr, who knew and spent a lot of time with LEE Oswald in Japan. Malcolm and John then drove to Leeds, MA., where they met and videotape recorded an interview with Dr. Milton Kurian, a NYC psychiatrist who interviewed HARVEY Oswald in April, 1953 (see U-Tube video).

On another occasion, when John and Malcolm were together in Dallas, John brought Dr. Kurian and his wife to Dallas, TX for a JFK Lancer conference. John also brought Palmer McBride to this conference, a man who had worked with HARVEY Oswald at the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in New Orleans in 1957-58 while LEE Oswald and Richard Cyr were together in the Marine Corps in Japan. Malcolm spent several days with Palmer, who had recently retired from a 40 year career working for NASA. Malcolm also spoke with Harry Vance (Palmer's long-time friend from N.O) who also met and remembered HARVEY Oswald at the Pfisterer Dental Lab in 1957-58. Then there was William Wulf, President of the N.O. Amateur Astronomy Association (1957-58), who met HARVEY Oswald on numerous occasions in early 1958. When HARVEY Oswald visited Wulf's home, and began discussing communism, Wulf's father told young Oswald to "get out of his house." 

Please ask Malcolm for his impression and opinion of Palmer McBride and Harry Vance's credibility. Please record Malcolm's response for the benefit of forum members. 

Have you, Bart Kamp, ever personally interviewed a witness who personally knew or worked with LHO during the 1950s.

Malcolm accompanied John during one of his (John's) many visits to the home of Marina Oswald Porter. It was during this visit that Marina gave John all of the original color slides from Dr. Norton's examination of HARVEY Oswald when exhumed in 1981. John copied the slides, returned the original slides to Marina, and posted some of the slides on line.

Did you, Bart Kamp, ever meet Marina or June or Rachel ?

I look forward to posting your replies to the above questions for the benefit of forum members.

Since you seem to be too busy and too important to hang out with us mere mortals here on the Ed Forum, I am also going to PM you this message to make sure you don't miss it.  Forum software should email it to you also.

As for evidence for two Oswalds at the TSBD, I have posted it in this very thread, posted it in many other threads on this forum, and have posted it all over HarveyandLee.net.  You just pretend it doesn't exist. That doesn't make it go away.  

Edited April 21, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Guest]

What, you thought answering a post also requires the same content as a PM? No need. But it does display your over zealous character a bit.

That "badge of honour" style list is great to know for everyone, but it is no dragon glass and you are completely missing the point I made in the previous post,once again. Perhaps you, Jim Hargrove,  could pay some closer attention to what I do write.

I have seen/read/scanned MB's archive to a large extend in relation to the documentation collected from that period.

Have you Jim Hargrove? I do not bother with the spook stuff as the older material suits my interest better and there has been a time limit on gathering/copying his archive. This ends soon.

I have also read Armstrong's book. 

And I can tell you this again as you seem to have missed the point Jim Hargrove, had he bothered to read all the material gathered at that time and used it as such then there would have been a whole different book on the table. A book that would have been awesome instead of dangling in a puddle of mediocre mud. That was my point Jim Hargrove. An evidence based book i/e instead of using the word ''probably'' more than 1,000 times! Should I bring up the Osanic interview from one month ago again Jim Hargrove? If only the man stuck with the facts! The amount of speculative content was unreal.

Palmer McBride, I know Malcolm spoke with him. He spoke to me about this last Feb. So what!

Now you can sling as much as you try Jim Hargrove, but since you missed the point completely I rest my case. Let's talk smudgy pix instead! Or your evidence for two Oswalds inside the T.S.B.D. for which you have hardly any fans, well you got Brian Doyle for one..... freshly, be it temporarily kicked off, from that other place. All that dross about two Oswald's inside the T.S.B.D. at that time can easily be explained in a larger pic. sense, which somehow eludes you, why? 

And, as I said already forum life ins't what it used to be, so bark some more as I am sure someone in the far distance will pay some attention to it. I on the other hand am going to enjoy this Easter weekend somewhat and then dig into that archive some more this week. Care to join Jim Hargrove? 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Jim Hargrove]

On 4/19/2019 at 6:10 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

 ... I completely agree that an "Oswald" impersonator shot J.D. Tippit. While that suspect may not have been a dead ringer for our "Oswald", he did resemble him enough to confuse strangers who might have seen him.

For readers who may be unaware to what Jim is referring about the two arrests in the Texas Theater, there are not one, but two different official Dallas Police reports extant in which the arrest of "Oswald" took place in the balcony, not the first floor. 

We know that our "Oswald" was arrested on the first floor.

So who was this "LHO" arrested in the balcony?

The same guy who shot Tippit, that's who!

Paul--I agree completely... but let’s keep going.

Initial radio reports from the Dallas Police indicated that Tippit’s killer was wearing “a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks.” The closest witness thought Tippit’s killer looked like “Oswald” but had a different hair cut in the back.  Classic Oswald® was wearing a dark red or brown shirt at the TSBD, and a brown shirt at the Texas Theater.

In examining testimony from people inside the TSBD, there is an obvious divide between witnesses who saw Oswald in a white shirt and those who saw Oswald in a red/brown shirt.  Within seconds of the time Truly and Baker encountered Oswald in a brown shirt, Mrs. Reid saw Oswald in a white shirt. During his questioning of Mrs. Reid, WC attorney Belin tried hard to get her to say this Oswald went into the lunchroom to get his brown/red shirt.  But she knew that he didn’t do that.  Mrs. Reid knew he walked right on through the office and out the other door. Belin couldn’t make her change her mind.

The white-shirted Oswald was seen by many entering a Nash Rambler soon after the hit.  Some people don’t want to admit it, but there is a trainload of evidence indicating the brown-shirted Oswald took a bus and taxi from the TSBD to the North Beckley rooming house.  Two Oswalds in the Book Depository, two Oswalds leaving Dealey Plaza.

AGAIN: Two Oswalds in the Book Depository and two Oswalds leaving it, a white-shirted Oswald killing Tippit, and two Oswalds, one definitely in a brown shirt and the other probably in a white shirt, in the Texas Theater.

Let’s keep moving backwards in time from Nov. 22.  During the six weeks prior to the assassinations of JFK and Tippit, Classic Oswald® (Marina’s husband--the guy in the brown shirts on November 22) was demonstrably somewhere else when an Oswald impostor did all sorts of incriminating things all around the Dallas area.  For example:

Appearing at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;
 
Nov. 2 visits Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

Nov. 6th or 7th visits the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and is referred to the shop where Dial Ryder works.

Appearing on November 2 (undoubtedly with an “Oswald” drivers license, which supposedly didn't exist) at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car;
 
On November 15, an “Oswald” lookalike showed up at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas;
 
On Nov. 20th, “Oswald” went hitch-hiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper who introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

Most of the episodes above, and others, were memorialized by Sylvia Meagher and in the movie Executive Action.  WHY IS THE EVIDENCE ALWAYS EXPLAINED BEST BY SUGGESTING THERE WERE TWO OSWALDS?

For the first time ever, John Armstrong looked back an entire decade from 1963, looking for more clues of two Oswalds that had escaped the FBI dragnet.  The result, in spades, are just a single click away:

HARVEY AND LEE

To Paul J: Let's have a conversation about Dorothy Garner.  

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

witnesses who saw Oswald in a white shirt and those who saw Oswald in a red/brown shirt

I haven't seen the part about how and what time white shirt Oswald enters the TSBD

[Andrej Stancak]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Classic Oswald® was wearing a dark red or brown shirt at the TSBD, and a brown shirt at the Texas Theater.

Jim:

this is one of many points which you keep repeating in spite of data saying otherwise. Lee Oswald wore a light red shirt, CE151, not the dark brown-red shirt, CE150 in the morning hours of Friday, November 22. Please note that he worked all Thursday in the same shirt which he had on himself when he arrived to work on Friday morning. That shirt was dirty and Lee needed to change it and he did after he arrived at his room at North Beckley. I am copying here my text from the thread "Oswald's shirt". 

Oswald's clothes, similar to his whereabouts or the statements of people who saw him on Friday morning were deliberately kept unclear and even contradicting. This was the disinformation strategy which unfortunately affects us all even today. 

(While you do not like to refer to Prayer Man in this thread, it may be of interest to you that the colour of CE151 (light-red) matched, after converting it to greyscale, the grey tone of his pants (khaki or grey worker's cloth colour). This combination of similarly grey shirt and slacks is seen in Prayer Man). 

Posted March 27 (edited)

I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. 

Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. 

The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem.

• Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page)
• Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative  "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page).

• Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ).
• FBI agent James Bookhout:  "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers"  (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page).

 Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning:

• Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt and a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm).

The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book:  A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination?

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

Andrej,

Thank you for bringing this up…. I’ve been meaning to discuss that shirt ever since I saw your description of it as “bright red.”  Here is the image of CE151 from Pat Speer’s site:

Below is a color swatch I see as bright red.  Do you see it differently?

 

There is little doubt that color perception and monitor/displays can differ about colors, which is why I sent that image to several people I know back in March and asked what color they saw.  I would describe that color as brown or reddish brown.  The two replies I got back both called it brown.  Do you really see it as bright red?

It would be nice if others here indicated how they would describe the color of CE151. 

I would also ask, is that shirt closer to brown or closer to white?

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Andrej,

Thank you for bringing this up…. I’ve been meaning to discuss that shirt ever since I saw your description of it as “bright red.”  Here is the image of CE151 from Pat Speer’s site:

Below is a color swatch I see as bright red.  Do you see it differently?

 

There is little doubt that color perception and monitor/displays can differ about colors, which is why I sent that image to several people I know back in March and asked what color they saw.  I would describe that color as brown or reddish brown.  The two replies I got back both called it brown.  Do you really see it as bright red?

It would be nice if others here indicated how they would describe the color of CE151. 

I would also ask, is that shirt closer to brown or closer to white?

Jim:

I have never described the colour of CE151 as "bright" red, only as light red. CE151 is pinkish, the CE150 which Lee wore during his arrest would be dark brown or brown-red. CE150 was distinctly darker than CE151. These two shirts cannot be interchanged. CE151 is a button-down collar type of shirt, a detail which Lee told his interrogators and which detail excludes the CE150 as the shirt he wore during the time of the assassination.  While I do not care what John Armstrong writes about the colour of Oswald's shirt (there are much more serious issues with his escape theory than the colour of the shirt), I do care about knowing exactly which shirt did Lee Oswald wear during morning hours because only the CE151 would not only allow to consider Lee Oswald as Prayer Man but also provide additional circumstantial evidence for this possibility.

 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

Andrej,

Personally I would say that the color of this shirt is light (or medium) brown. But I could see other people calling it just brown.

Now, if I saw the shirt in person and noticed that it was actually a red color rather than brown, I would call it a muted red.

I just google muted red and was a little surprised to find that Valspar (a paint company) has a color by that very name, and that it actually matches the shirt's color:
 

 

Now, had I not been able to think of the word "muted" quickly, I would have searched for an adjective that would similarly indicate it not being a true (bright) red. That word might have been "dark." So yes, I could see someone calling it a dark red shirt.

I wouldn't called it a light red shirt because light red to me is a pink color.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

I haven't seen the part about how and what time white shirt Oswald enters the TSBD

Tony,

No one knows when the sixth floor team first entered the TSBD. We know from witness testimony that at least two men were up on the sixth floor a few minutes after 12 pm, but precisely when they first got there remains conjecture. 

How did they get there?

Again, no one can say for sure - maybe they entered overnight, and then hid for several hours, only to emerge at the right time (unlikely, in my view, but possible, I guess. Professional snipers are trained to lie in wait for hours. So maybe?)

Or maybe they entered innocuously through one of the loading dock entrances and took a freight elevator up. If so, then it almost certainly would have been at lunch. Also they probably would have been accompanied by a TSBD "insider" to provide a veneer of cover to their arrival. (Roy Truly is a distinct possibility here, in my view.)

If they took a freight elevator up, it would have to have been after the "elevator race" involving the flooring crew from the sixth floor. 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

Personally I would say that the color of this shirt is light (or medium) brown. But I could see other people calling it just brown.

I would also describe the shirt as brown, and so did the two people I emailed the image to.  In fairness, though, I would also describe Sandy’s “Muted Red” Valspar swatch as brown or at least reddish-brown, so it is clear that perceptions and descriptions can vary.  But Andrej also makes a crucial point:

Let’s all make it absolutely clear that this shirt—call it brown or red or whatever--was NOT the arrest shirt!  Any findings that fibers from the arrest shirt were on the Magic Rifle® is proof of yet more treachery from the FBI.

Back to the point, though, would anyone here describe CE151 as a “white" shirt?  It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me that witnesses referred to CE151 as a brown shirt.