“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

Tony,

One of the points about identifying the Oswalds seen in the New Orleans TV film which I think these photos come from is who is who.  A standard technique of photo editors to disguise someone is to use a face mask from another person.  It is easier and more realistic than just substituting the head. 

I stuck me that the Harvey Oswald shown might not be Harvey but Lee faked instead.  In other words Harvey covered with a Lee face mask.  When you think about that that is too bizarre to believe.  That would be the opposite of most of what is seen. I did a writeup on Harvey's facial characteristics based upon his Dallas Police mug shot.  It's somewhere here on the forum.  It made sense to me but, to others not so much. 

Your shoulder angle analysis further leads me to believe that something suspicious is going on here.  Lee has the sloping shoulders and Harvey not as much.  If that is a Harvey face mask on Lee then they made of a mess of the appearance.  Looks more like Lee in my opinion, hence the photo comparison.

In the photo next to the 3 Patsy photo an Oswald figure is shown.  If you look close there is a line running down the face from the hairline to the chin.  The face mask is mismatched with the Oswald figure's hair.  In the 3 Patsy photo the central character has his backed turned in every photo he is in.  This person might be Lee Oswald.  If not, based on his round head, my next suspect in Kerry Thornley.  One or the other are prime suspects for the person in the Oswald Passport photo for Mexico.  I believe that Oswald in the passport is wearing a Harvey face mask.  That is an old argument.  Anyway that passport has been photo edited based on other characteristics. 

There is also the problem of altered photos in deciding whose who in the Oswalds in your analysis.  Some are composite photos.

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

Shelley’s office, where undoubtedly there was a phone he could use to “call his wife,” was on the TSBD first floor just steps away from the electrical panels.
 

 

Jim,

Thanks for that information.

BTW, the reason I said Shelley was in calling his wife during the Couch/Darnell clip is because I don't see him anywhere in the clips. In his first-day affidavit he said that immediately after the shots he ran over to that corner concrete island and ran into Gloria Calvery there. He then went back inside and called his wife.

Tommy Graves and I identified Gloria Calvery in the Couch/Darnell clips a couple years ago. She is standing on the steps talking to Billy Lovelady. So apparently, after bumping into Shelley on the concrete island, the two of them ran back to the steps. As I said, I don't see him on the steps or near the front entrance, so I believe he is inside.

However, I have recently seen Andrej's claim that Shelley is on the steps in Couch/Darnell. That very well may be true... Shelley may have gone back to the steps and stayed there a little while before going in and calling his wife. I need to be shown convincing evidence of this before changing my mind.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Andrej,

Shelley is lying here. In his first day statement he said that he ran across the street to the little, old island right after the shots and ran into Gloria Calvery there. Then in his WC testimony he changed it all around, saying that he stayed on the steps for three or four minutes before Gloria Calvery arrived there (ON THE STEPS). And Lovelady said the same lie in his WC testimony.

If you pay attention only to their first day statements, everything makes sense and is corroborated by the Couch Darnell clip. First day affidavits are much more likely to be accurate than later statements. Especially in a cover up.

Shelley and Lovelady were coached into giving false WC testimony so that Victoria Adam's timing could be discredited. Because her timing proved that the official story was hogwash.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

Shelley is lying here. In his first day statement he said that he ran across the street to the little, old island right after the shots and ran into Gloria Calvery there. Then in his WC testimony he changed it all around, saying that he stayed on the steps for three or four minutes before Gloria Calvery arrived there (ON THE STEPS). And Lovelady said the same lie in his WC testimony.

If you pay attention only to their first day statements, everything makes sense and is corroborated by the Couch Darnell clip. First day affidavits are much more likely to be accurate than later statements. Especially in a cover up.

Shelley and Lovelady were coached into giving false WC testimony so that Victoria Adam's timing could be discredited. Because her timing proved that the official story was hogwash.

 

Sandy:

I do not think that Shelley had lied when he said he stayed where he was for a minute or so. It is not Shelley who some people think he is in Couch/Darnell. Shelley is seen on the top landing in Darnell at his Altgens-Wiegman spot,  matching exactly what he had said to the Warren Commission. If you agree that the man in the western front part of the Doorway was Lovelady, I do not understand why Shelley could not stand where he was just 30 seconds after the last shot.  As far as Shelley is concerned, he is right there at his spot, a piece of his black tie can also be seen. So, Shelley's testimony plus visual data are already some corroborating evidence. I find the DPD affidavit as too brief and inaccurate.

I would assume lying by a witness only as the last resort and would first try to explain findings by checking statements by multiple witnesses. Neither Shelley nor Lovelady actually confirmed seeing Vicki Adams after they returned, so they did not lie and they did not help the Warren Commission a bit with their testimonies.  The lie that occurred was when the Warren Commission wanted to discredit Adams's statements by saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady. The two gentlemen did not take part in this lie.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Shelley and Lovelady both had three different versions of their stories about re-entering the TSBD.  The first was in their original DPD affidavits, both indicating that they went back into the building relatively quickly.  On 11/22/63,  Lovelady told the DPD (after describing the three shots)  “After it was over we went back into the building....”  Four months later,  he told the FBI,  “I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

On April 7, 1964, Vickie Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady all testified before the WC.  Adams, at least according to the existing transcript, said she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs a minute or so after the shots were fired. If we are to believe that the Shelley and Lovelady sighting by Adams was later inserted into her DPD affidavit and WC testimony, why did Ball question both Lovelady and Shelley about her on the same day she testified?  Also on April 7, Lovelady now testified much differently from his first-day affidavit.  He said that he went to the railroad tracks, saw police, and went back to the building via the west entrance on the back dock.  He testified as follows:

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something.…

Like Lovelady, Bill Shelley at the Warren Commission hearing that same day now remembered going all the way to the railroad tracks before re-entering the building, although he said nothing like that in his original affidavit.  And he sure was hazy about recalling Vickie Adams....

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 

[Sandy Larsen]

58 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Shelley and Lovelady both had three different versions of their stories about re-entering the TSBD.  The first was in their original DPD affidavits, both indicating that they went back into the building relatively quickly.  On 11/22/63,  Lovelady told the DPD (after describing the three shots)  “After it was over we went back into the building....”  Four months later,  he told the FBI,  “I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

On April 7, 1964, Vickie Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady all testified before the WC.  Adams, at least according to the existing transcript, said she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs a minute or so after the shots were fired. If we are to believe that the Shelley and Lovelady sighting by Adams was later inserted into her DPD affidavit and WC testimony, why did Ball question both Lovelady and Shelley about her on the same day she testified?  Also on April 7, Lovelady now testified much differently from his first-day affidavit.  He said that he went to the railroad tracks, saw police, and went back to the building via the west entrance on the back dock.  He testified as follows:

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something.…

Like Lovelady, Bill Shelley at the Warren Commission hearing that same day now remembered going all the way to the railroad tracks before re-entering the building, although he said nothing like that in his original affidavit.  And he sure was hazy about recalling Vickie Adams....

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 

Mr. Ball was told before he took testimony that day that Shelley and Lovelady had an encounter with Vickie Adams when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. The truth is that no such encounter ever occurred, but all three witnesses were coached and hounded into going along with the story. How did they respond?

Well, Lovelady and Shelley decided to go along with the part where they supposedly waited around several minutes and then entered the west door of the TSBD. That part is necessary to discredit Vickie Adam's timing. But as shown by their testimonies -- posted above by Jim -- they couldn't quite bring themselves to finger Vickie. Lovelady got so wound up in his deposition that he blurts out Vickie's name before he's even asked about her!

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

LOL!

And for some reason Lovelady knew more about Bill Shelley's interaction with Vickie than Bill Shelley did himself:

Mr. LOVELADY - ....I remember seeing a girl [Vickie, though he couldn't swear to it] as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something.…

Bill's version:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 

LOL!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I would assume lying by a witness only as the last resort and would first try to explain findings by checking statements by multiple witnesses.

You have much to learn when ferreting out l.i.a.r.s.

Don't forget...

Shelley's Story #1:  Immediately ran across the road to the little old island, where he bumped into Gloria Calvery.

Shelley's Story #2:  Waited three or four minutes on the steps till Gloria Calvery arrived there.

LIES!  He not only changed the location of his meeting with Gloria Calvery, but added the three or four minutes to boot!

And AMAZINGLY, Lovelady's evolving story ended up using Shelley's lies!  "Waited three minutes on the steps till Gloria Calvery arrived there."

(Even though Darnell/Couch shows Gloria Calvery arriving at the steps within 30 seconds (not 3 minutes) of the shooting. Which, not surprisingly, fits Shelley's Story #1, the first-day affidavit that most certainly is the correct story.)

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Neither Shelley nor Lovelady actually confirmed seeing Vicki Adams after they returned....

 

LOL, no they didn't ACTUALLY confirm seeing Vickie Adams. Lovelady only showed SIGNS of being coached to confirm seeing Vicki Adams! And signs that he knew Shelley was being coached to do the same.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

....so they did not lie and they did not help the Warren Commission a bit with their testimonies.

 

Yes they did lie... by saying they spent three minutes on the steps, and also by saying the entered to west door of the TSBD. Their testimonies provided the WC two stooges for Vickie Adams to supposedly see as she exited the stairwell, so that she could discredit herself. If only she would go along with their plan and say that she saw the two at that time.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The lie that occurred was when the Warren Commission wanted to discredit Adams's statements by saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady. The two gentlemen did not take part in this lie.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mr. Ball was told before he took testimony that day that Shelley and Lovelady had an encounter with Vickie Adams when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. The truth is that no such encounter ever occurred, but all three witnesses were coached and hounded into going along with the story. How did they respond?

Well, Lovelady and Shelley decided to go along with the part where they supposedly waited around several minutes and then entered the west door of the TSBD. That part is necessary to discredit Vickie Adam's timing. But as shown by their testimonies -- posted above by Jim -- they couldn't quite bring themselves to finger Vickie. Lovelady got so wound up in his deposition that he blurts out Vickie's name before he's even asked about her!

As I already pointed out, Adams, Shelley and Lovelady all testified on the same day: April 7, 1964.  So it is your contention that the WC and Dallas Police conspired to “improve” Adams’ testimony and affidavit and, within the few minutes before they testified, coached Shelley and Lovelady to go along with these not-yet-made "improvements" to Adams’ testimony?  LOL!

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 2/23/2019 at 4:56 PM, John Butler said:

Here's another speculation.  We usually think of the person in the New Orleans films passing out pamphlets as Harvey Oswald.  Based on the photo it could be Lee.  Would that make the photo shown a 4 Patsy photo?  Could who was to be the real Patsy still up in the air in the summer of 1963.  It could have been decided that one of the two, Harvey or Lee, was definitely going to be the Patsy. 

Could be anybody's guess.

Tony and John Butler,

There is some other evidence to support the speculation that a different "Oswald" was involved in the pamphlet distribution street-theater. Namely, the testimonies of both Philip Geraci III and Vance Blalock leave open the very real possibility that it was not "ClassicOswald" (to borrow Jim Hargrove's phrase) who had the initial discussion with the boys while they were loitering around Carlos Bringuer's store.

Permit me a rather long discussion, but one I think is worth considering:

1. The first thing that struck me was that 16 year old Phillip Geraci III did not recognize the "Oswald" he met as the man arrested in Dallas until after he got an unexplained visit from an FBI agent a few days after 11/22. Geraci said he saw pictures of the Dallas man, but:

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you recognize that individual in the picture as being the man that you saw in the store that day? 
Mr. GERACI - Well, tell you the truth, when I first heard about it in the papers and on the TV, I didn't recognize him. See, I forgot that I met this guy over there, you know, I forgot about it, and I thought I didn't meet him. It wasn't until the FBI man came to my house and he showed me a picture of him when he was first under arrest, and he got arrested in August, the 4th I think. 
Mr. LIEBELER - He showed you a picture that had been taken of Lee when he had been under arrest here in New Orleans? 
Mr. GERACI - Yes; it was one of those things with three things, showing him from the front, the side, and his face. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you then recognize the man in the picture, that they showed you as being the man that you met in the store that day? 
Mr. GERACI - Well, you see, I didn't exactly recognize him maybe, but anyway I was pretty sure it was him though. He said--he showed me that and said, "Do you ever remember an ex-marine and then I remembered there was a guy who was dressed something like that who was an ex-marine who came in, and he did have a funny name, you know, like Lee. It's a little unusual, it's kind of rare, and I remembered the last name was a little hard, so it just fits that that was him. "

On the other hand, Geraci's friend, 16 year old Vance Blalock, by the end of his testimony, seemingly did recognize "Oswald":

 

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you recall to each other and discuss with each other the meeting that you had with Oswald in the store on Decatur Street at that time? 
Mr. BLALOCK - I think I was the one that recognized him. I called it to Philip's attention, and the next day at school he said, "Yes, that is the man we met at the store." I recognized Oswald late one night when I was just about going to bed. I told my Daddy, "I went uptown and met that man up there." 
Mr. LIEBELER - This was shortly after the assassination? 
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes; during the time they didn't have any shows but the funeral and---- 
Mr. LIEBELER - [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] Let me show you a picture that has been marked as Exhibit I to the affidavit of Jesse J. Garner taken at New Orleans, April 6, 1964, and I ask you if you recognize the individual portrayed in that picture. 
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir; I recognize him. 

 

Mr. LIEBELER - And do you recognize him as the man you met in the store that day? 
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir; Lee Harvey Oswald. 

 

Definitive, right? 

 

Wrong.

 

Note well this curious exchange earlier in Blalock's testimony:

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did this man who walked up introduce himself by name? 
Mr. BLALOCK - I believe so, but I don't remember what name he gave. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you now convinced that he was Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mr. LIEBELER - But you don't remember that he mentioned the name Lee Harvey Oswald at that time? 
Mr. BLALOCK - No. 

 

John, I have omitted nothing. Note that Liebeler's key question ("Are you now convinced that he was Lee Harvey Oswald? ") has no recorded response from Blalock. Why not? I bet Blalock did answer, but his answer didn't fit the narrative. So it was deleted. Liebeler waited for a bit to try again, and as soon as Liebeler got Blalock to say the visitor was Lee Harvey Oswald, then Liebeler immediately ended the deposition.

 

I don't think that's a coincidence, do you? 

 

Harvey, or Lee?

 

2. Note that both boys said that "Oswald" claimed to be some sort of demolition expert, capable of blowing up bridges:

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald say anything about having been a Marine? 
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir; he did, and he explained that he took training in guerrilla warfare, and he told us how to blow up bridges, derail trains, make zip guns, make homemade gunpowder. 
Mr. LIEBELER - He told you about this in detail? 
Mr. BLALOCK - He told us how to blow up the Huey P. Long Bridge. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us just what he told you about that. I know you can't remember the exact words, but you can remember the substance of the conversation? 
Mr. BLALOCK - He told us to put powder charges at each end of the bridge from the foundation to where the foundation meets the suspension part, and to blow that part up and the center part of the bridge would collapse. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he talk about any other aspect of guerilla warfare that you can remember? 
Mr. BLALOCK - He said that if you don't have the materials you need always available, you had to do without stuff. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he give any specific example of that? 
Mr. BLALOCK - Gunpowder, high explosives. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he tell you how to do without gunpowder in these activities? 
Mr. BLALOCK - He told us how to derail a train without gunpowder. 
Mr. LIEBELER - What did he say about that? 
Mr. BLALOCK - He said put a chain around the railriad track and lock it to the track with a lock. 
Mr. LIEBELER - And then when the train hit the chain it would derail the train? 
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Did h

• e say that he knew how to make gunpowder? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir; he told us the formula, and I--saltpeter and nitrate some formula--I don't remember. 
  Mr. LIEBELER - Did he say anything about guns? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - About zip guns, how to make them out of tubing and a plunger. 

   

  Here's Geraci:

   

  Mr. GERACI - No. This was his first visit. As far as I can make out, it must have been, and he asked a few questions like that. Carlos just answered real simply and all that, he didn't go into any big speeches, you know, with them, like he did for me and Vance, just answered his questions simply. Then when the man came in with the broken radio, Carlos left, and that left Oswald, me, and Vance by ourselves. 
  Then, well, we asked--you know, we were a little interested in guerrilla warfare ourselves and things like that, and he said, well, he was an ex-marine, said he was in the Marines once. He said he learned a little bit about that stuff, and he said a few things about guerrilla warfare I remember, like he said the way to derail a train was to wrap chain around the ties of the track and then lock it with a padlock and the train would derail. He said the thing he liked best of all was learning how to blow up the Huey P. Long Bridge. He said you put explosive at each end on the banks and blow it up, and that leaves the one column standing. And he said how to make a homemade gun and how to make gunpowder, homemade gunpowder. He just went into those real simply. He didn't really, you know, tell us how to do it or anything, just said like if you want to make a homemade gun, you know, do something like you know, the thing you pull back [demonstrating] and it goes forward, like on one of the pinball machines. He just s aid something like that. He didn't really go into detail or anything. We didn't ask him. And by this time Carlos came back from the other guy, and came back, and he was listening, and, well, that is about all. 

   

  (This all sounds to me like Lee, not Harvey.)

   

   

  3. Note that Blalock said that "Oswald" claimed to have spent time in Florida with anti-Castro Cubans! (This caused Liebeler some concern!)

   

  Mr. LIEBELER - Did he say anything about Florida? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - Just mentioned the Cuban anti-Castro organization there. 
  Mr. LIEBELER - What did he say about that? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - I don't remember exactly, but I think he said he had been there and he had looked into it. I couldn't say for sure on that. 
  Mr. LIEBELER - Did he mention the name of the organization? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - No, sir. No, I don't recall any name. 

   

  Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember talking to the FBI agent about Oswald's remark concerning having been to Florida? 
  Mr. BLALOCK - No, sir; I don't remember what I told the FBI agent. I don't remember anything about Oswald saying---only that I think he said he had been there. 

   

  When Liebeler asked Geraci about whether "Oswald" had claimed to have been in Florida, note Geraci's hedged response:

   

  Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember whether Oswald said anything about having been in Florida? 
  Mr. GERACI - In Florida? 
  Mr. LIEBELER - Yes. 
  Mr. GERACI - I am not too sure about that. 
  Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember one way or the other whether---- 
  Mr. GERACI - The only thing I remember about Florida is when he asked was headquarters down there. He could have, but I don't know. 

   

  John, we know that Lee really did spend time in Florida, and that to ingratiate himself with strangers, Lee would have used the Florida connection. There is no known instance of Harvey in Florida, right?

   

  4. Two or three boys (besides Geraci and Blalock, a Bill Dwyer also made at least one visit to Bringuier's shop) in "Oswald's"  presence ("Oswald" offered to give them his Marine Corps Manuel, and both Geraci and Blalock started to follow "Oswald" home) is reminiscent of Dean Andrew's testimony about "Oswald" and "gay kids" from earlier that summer in New Orleans. 

  I am not certain that Geraci and Blalock were the same kids that accompanied "Oswald" to Andrews' office, merely that this "Oswald" was used to hanging around with teen boys.

   

  That sounds more like Lee than Harvey.

   

  John, finally what makes me very suspicious about this is that the official transcript reads that the depositions of both boys took TWO DAYS! (April 7-8, 1964)

   

  No way - those depositions from the published record couldn't have taken more than an hour each!

   

  I am certain these transcripts were manipulated and coordinated to hide the fact that the boys DID NOT initially identify the man they met as the Dallas Oswald. That's why the date reads "April 7-8, 1964."

   

  "The testimony of Vance Blalock, accompanied by his parents, was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley Jr. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission."

   

  "The testimony of Philip Geraci III, accompanied by his mother, was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission."

   

  John, I believe you and I agree that Harvey was arrested on August 5, 1963 by the NOPD and charged with disturbing the peace, after Harvey's altercation with Carlos Bringuier.

   

  I am not at all sure though that it was truly Harvey who made the initial approach to Bringuier a few days earlier. For the four reasons listed above, I believe there is a real possibility it was actually Lee.

   

  What do you think?

   

   

   

   

   

   

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Edited February 25, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Tony Krome]

 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John, we know that Lee really did spend time in Florida, and that to ingratiate himself with strangers, Lee would have used the Florida connection. There is no known instance of Harvey in Florida, right?

Harvey (along with Allen Felde) was probably stationed at a USMC base in Jacksonville, FL briefly during the spring of 1957 (see H&L, p. 162), but I can’t think of another instance when Harvey was in Florida. Lee, of course, spent a considerable amount of time there, especially while Harvey was in the USSR.

[Paul Jolliffe]

Thanks, Jim.

Yes, I had forgotten that Harvey was there in 1957. But when reading Liebler's deposition of Geraci and Blalock, it is obvious that Liebler was not concerned with 1957 - he was mortified that the boys might state unequivocally that "Oswald" claimed to have been in Florida, working in the company of anti-Castro Cubans. 

And that, as we all know, is something that would never fit "the narrative".

[Paul Jolliffe]

29 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

 

Tony,

I think your intention in posting this video was to show that the Oswald filmed passing out the pamphlets here, was in fact, the same man arrested in Dallas for the assassination.

But, I didn't claim that the above image isn't "Oswald". (It probably is, although I have some separate questions.) Instead, my claim was much more specific:

Was the "Oswald" who came to Bringuer's store (a few days before the above event) and who talked to Phillip Geraci III and Vance Blalock, the same man who was confronted on the street corner by Carlos Bringuer and his buddies?

A close reading of the testimonies of both boys makes it an open question, at least to me. Neither boy gave an unqualified identification of our man, and again, for the four reasons I listed earlier, there would seem to be room for doubt.

But, I recognize that reasonable people can disagree. That's why I wanted to throw it out there: does anyone else think the boys' testimonies leave room for doubt as to who actually visited Bringuer's store in early August?

[Joe Bauer]

35 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

 

Whoever took this video footage did as professional a job as a trained cameraman for television news stations. And with something better than an average everyday family film camera.

Oswald seems completely at ease with his being filmed and for what seemed like several minutes.

As paranoid and cynical as Oswald was reported to be, you'd think he would have exhibited at least some suspicious glances back at a cameraman whom he didn't know from Adam. imo

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

As I already pointed out, Adams, Shelley and Lovelady all testified on the same day: April 7, 1964.

 

I don't understand the point you are trying to make in saying they all testified the same day.

 

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

So it is your contention that the WC and Dallas Police conspired to “improve” Adams’ testimony and affidavit and, within the few minutes before they testified, coached Shelley and Lovelady to go along with these not-yet-made "improvements" to Adams’ testimony?  LOL!

 

No. I'm saying that during the weeks leading up to the WC depositions of Lovelady, Shelley, and Adams, the authorities were trying to tie up loose ends. Some time before their depositions, the authorities coached the three into telling a lie, saying they encountered each other near the rear stairwell on the first floor just as Vickie Adams exited it.

As can be seen in Lovelady's and Shelley's WC depositions, those two didn't fully go along with the plan. My guess is because they felt like they would be betraying Vickie Adams. And according to Vickie Adams, she didn't say what was recorded in her deposition. If she's right, this means the authorizes altered here testimony afterward. But  an alternate possibility is that she indeed said what she was coached to say, and later felt ashamed and denied she'd said it.