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----- >>>>> It's Lee <<<<< -----

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10 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

David, stick to the new evidence. It cancels out all that old 'evidence'. 

In your (wildest) dreams maybe.

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An "It's Lee!" Follow-Up....

Based on the comments I have received from a member of my Facebook group, I was prompted to take another look at this page of the "Prayer Man" website, on which we find these words (which evidently I didn't read carefully enough yesterday when I first looked at that webpage; emphasis added by DVP):

"When I [Ed LeDoux] got to Richard Sprague’s annotated sketches of Weigman [sic] and the label of an unknown figure marked J, she stopped me. Marina interjected and said, “That’s Lee”. I was taken aback, as she knew exactly what and who I had asked about. She volunteered her answer. I exclaimed, “What?”, to make sure I had heard her correctly. And she replied to me, “It’s Lee”, and did so as quite a matter of fact."

So it's clear from the above words written by Ed LeDoux that Marina didn't "identify" Lee Harvey Oswald as "Prayer Man" from any of the FILMS showing the front of the Book Depository during the time of the assassination (i.e., the black-and-white news films taken by Dave Wiegman of NBC-TV and Jimmy Darnell of WBAP-TV), but, instead, Marina evidently called out "That's Lee" when looking at this "sketch"....

Man-In-Doorway-Sketch.jpg

....which, of course, is a sketch that depicts absolutely no clear features whatsoever that could possibly be utilized to positively identify ANY human being.

So when I said this yesterday....

"Marina Oswald looked at the same crappy, fuzzy image that all of us have looked at, and yet she somehow KNOWS "It's Lee". Yeah, right."

....I was probably incorrect, because it certainly would appear (according to the words we find at Prayer-Man.com) that Marina Oswald was NOT looking at this still frame from the Darnell Film when she exclaimed "It's Lee". She was merely looking at some drawing or "sketch".

So why in the world the Prayer Man and ROKC conspiracy theorists are propping up this "It's Lee" junk is beyond me. Because it couldn't be more obvious to me now that Marina Oswald's "It's Lee!" declaration is about as useful and meaningful as a blind person trying to figure out the identity of the "Prayer Man" figure.

In other words, Marina is very likely mixed up regarding which "Doorway Man" figure is which, and as such, her "It's Lee" remark is not credible at all. In fact, it's totally worthless. And it would still be totally worthless even if Marina WAS referring to the "Prayer Man" figure seen in the Darnell film. Because that figure cannot be positively identified as "Lee" (or anyone else) given its poor quality and low resolution.

It's also quite clear from the audio of LeDoux's telephone conversation with Marina Oswald in July of 2018 that Marina has no interest in reading the "Prayer Man" book that was sent to her by members of the "Prayer Man" online fraternity. She said to LeDoux very pointedly: "I'm not going to read that book".

So Marina certainly hasn't gleaned any knowledge from this book at all. And I have a feeling that she probably hasn't read a single thing about the "Prayer Man" theory---ever.

Plus, Marina mentions the name of "Billy Lovelady" during her brief telephone conversation with LeDoux [linked below], implying that she was still of the opinion at that time that the "Classic Lovelady Figure" (for lack of a better way to describe it) in the James Altgens photograph was the focus of LeDoux's interest, and not the "Prayer Man" figure.

Play-Audio-Logo.png

It's very curious to me (based on that one article at the "Prayer Man" website) that anyone in the PM community could possibly think that Marina had, in fact, said that the Prayer Man figure was Lee Oswald, when she clearly seems to think that the "Billy Lovelady" figure in the TSBD doorway is the prime focus of Ed LeDoux's inquiry. And thusly, she mentions "Billy Lovelady" in her follow-up phone conversation with LeDoux above. I think she is saying that she thinks Lee is the Billy Lovelady figure. She's not saying the "Prayer Man" figure is Lee at all.

And I'll add this....

Based on the words that Marina used in her interviews with LeDoux, I'm going to guess that even if Marina Oswald HAS seen this image from Jimmy Darnell's film, she could very well STILL think that the "Prayer Man" image is the same as the "Billy Lovelady" image. Both figures, after all, are standing very close to each other in the west portion of the doorway. So if Marina hasn't "studied up" on the "Prayer Man" theory specifically (and it's pretty clear that she hasn't, based on her comments to LeDoux on the phone), she could very easily be merging the two "Doorway Man" figures into just one, with that one (in Marina's mind) being this man right here in the Altgens photo.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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David:

Marina was sent Prayer Man pictures, not Altgens6. She was taken through the schematic drawing of the doorway figures (Barnabei) and stopped at the one labelled "J", not at Lovelady or Shelley or anyone else. This was in context of previous Darnell and Wiegman pictures she received by mail. It is true that the recorded conversation includes Marina's using the name Lovelady, in the sense that one only needs to understand the difference between the two men, Lovelady and Lee - she was not saying that Lovelady in Altgens6 was Lee. That part may raise some questions and it would be very useful to sit with Marina, show her both Altgens6 and Darnell and record the responses. However, I also gather that Marina may not be able to do it due to her health issues which she has mentioned at the beginning of the phone conversation. Under such circumstances, Marina could be severely distressed and confused even in things which healthy people of younger age find easy or trivial. I appreciated that Ed had chosen to make the call short once Marina told she was unwell.

It may be worthy to prepare two (sets of) pictures, one with Altgens6-Lovelady and one with Darnell-Prayer Man , shuffle them and ask if any of the figures in any of the photographs resembles Lee. Give her enough time and put her at ease. I would say this should be done by someone who can visit  Marina and can see if she is all right on the day. Maybe David Lifton or Gary Shaw?

So, we are half-way through here. Some will interpret Marina's statements as a positive identification and some will point to uncertainty in her statements.

 

 

 

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Andrej,

Good suggestions above. I agree that a sit-down, in-person conversation with Marina Oswald Porter would be the best way to straighten out exactly where she stands on the matter of "Altgens/Lovelady" vs. "Prayer Man". Because I think, as of right now, she is equating ALL "Doorway Man" images with the famous Altgens/Lovelady image. And I think that's why she said this to Ed LeDoux in one of their conversations:

"When I [LeDoux] asked Marina about the images of Prayer Man to Lee, she said, “Yes, seen it many times”, like it was old news."

Now, does anyone really think that Marina Oswald has seen the "Prayer Man" image "many times" since that theory first popped up on anybody's radar in 2013? I seriously doubt it. The image she has very likely seen "many times", however, is the Altgens/Lovelady picture.

Edited by David Von Pein

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David:

there were two phono calls. The earlier phone call, I gather, happened after Marina received a pack of Darnell and Wiegman stills which apparenly also contained Barnebei sketches, and Ed and Marina went through the sketch while having other Darnell and Wiegman photographs around. It was at that point when Marina confirmed "J" person to be Lee. There was no association with Altgens6 during the first conversation. The second phone call was the one which was recorded. Marina was not well, she did not read Prayer Man book but she browsed through the book and realised she might not be able to understand because there were too many characters mentioned in the book, and she felt that was too much on her. Those having grandparents around their 80th year of life would understand right away what was the problem. She clearly was a bit confused at that moment and mentioned Lovelady and came back in her mind to Algens6 which picture she had seen many times. However, she did not think that she was identifying  from Altgens6, she gave her approval to something which has been discussed during the first conversation, and that was Darnell' Prayer Man.

Ed is a member on this forum and can shed more light on the problem. I may not interpret the course of events accurately as I was not the one making the calls.

 

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It doesn't really matter, Andrej. Because one thing is quite obvious to me after looking at this image just one time ---- and that is:

Nobody can say for sure who the so-called "Prayer Man" person is ---- not even Marina Oswald.

And anyone who thinks she can positively I.D. LHO as PM is only fooling themselves.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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You are anything but an expert, you have no proper photography knowledge.

Have not posted any evidence to the contrary.

Been filling these threads with baseless innuendo and just your opinion

And are starting to bore just about everyone here with it.......

Go home Von Pein!

 

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37 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Nobody can say for sure who the so-called "Prayer Man" person is ---- not even Marina Oswald.

And anyone who thinks she can positively I.D. LHO as PM is only fooling themselves.

We will see about it. I am sure we can do a lot for clarifying the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man even with the versions of Darnell available now, and even more if a high-resolution copy of Darnell film will be available to researchers.

I would not recommend using the copy of Darnell's still which pops up after hitting the link in your message. I am afraid this version is already a processed image in which the contrasts have been increased. My preferred Darnell images are those obtained by disassembling Darnell film into individual frames.

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47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My preferred Darnell images are those obtained by disassembling Darnell film into individual frames.

I have no experience in this field, but after reading the above, is there any way that you can enter all frames, that show PM, into some graphics software, that could generate an optimum single image? 

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On 2/17/2019 at 11:51 PM, David Von Pein said:

For any person who believes that the "Prayer Man" figure is Lee Harvey Oswald and for those who are unaware of the document linked below, I'd recommend that they read that document, which is an April 3, 1964, FBI report consisting of signed statements from 73 different Book Depository employees. The FBI, in these statements, sought to discover some basic information from those 73 TSBD employees, including whether each of the employees had seen Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of JFK's assassination.

And if you read through all 73 statements, you'll find that there wasn't a single employee who said they saw Oswald at the time the shooting took place --- not even among the several people who said they were located on or near the front steps of the Depository at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63.

Do the "Prayer Man" advocates think all of the people who were in a position to see Oswald on or near the steps were lying? Or were they all just not very observant? And if it's the latter option, then conspiracy theorists have got to admit one thing for sure --- any conspirators who might have been attempting to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for President Kennedy's murder on November 22nd sure as heck got awfully lucky when their designated "patsy", who was standing right out in the open in front of the building for all to potentially see, just happened to go totally unnoticed in the eyes of every single spectator who was standing nearby.

Patsy-framing assassination plotters don't get that lucky very often. Do they? ....

CD706-Logo.png

I wonder why the FBI felt it necessary to secure depositions from 73 people claiming specifically that Lee Oswald was not on the front steps?

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Good luck in ever getting an UNALTERED high-resolution copy of the Darnell film from the National Archive or Sixth Floor Museum!

See the following:
 

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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1 hour ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

I wonder why the FBI felt it necessary to secure depositions from 73 people claiming specifically that Lee Oswald was not on the front steps?


LOL excellent point!  :clapping

(But are you sure they were all asked that, or said they hadn't seen Oswald on the steps? Or are you just being facetious?)

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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1 hour ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

I wonder why the FBI felt it necessary to secure depositions from 73 people claiming specifically that Lee Oswald was not on the front steps?

Hi Andrew, I spent some time reading the witness statements and I agree there is something contrived about getting witnessing to answer such limited questions. Two statements jump out to me: That of Ochus Campbell who gives a rather contradictory impression, he did not look at the TBSD, but does recall seeing the Motorcade passing the TBSD. I guess that's impossible and his emphasis on not looking at the building may suggest his awareness of his earlier comments about Oswald's location.

 

The second statement is odd as it doesn't match the standard of the others. It is that of Wesley Frasier. He doesn't get to say 'I don't know Oswald' and more improtantly he does not get to say he does know Oswald. I guess as a 19 year old he may not have been very talkative, but its odd they didn't prompt him to say what most of the other's had said, or what seems likely this is not a full recording of what he did say.

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:


LOL excellent point!  :clapping

(But are you sure they were all asked that, or said they hadn't seen Oswald on the steps? Or are you just being facetious?)

 

I’m a smartass. Nonetheless, it’s reminiscent of agents’ trip to Lovelady’s home the evening of the assassination with the enlargement of Altgens 6 for Lovelady to confirm it was him in the photo. They appear to have been concerned about something turning up to prove LHO was not where they claimed him to be — certainly more concerned than they were about recording the primary suspect’s statements.

Edited by Andrew Prutsok

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1 hour ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

I’m a smartass. Nonetheless, it’s reminiscent of agents’ trip to Lovelady’s home the evening of the assassination with the enlargement of Altgens 6 for Lovelady to confirm it was him in the photo. They appear to have been concerned about something turning up to prove LHO was not where they claimed him to be — certainly more concerned than they were about recording the primary suspect’s statements. 


I see your point. It does make one wonder if the reason for getting those belated statements (March & April 1964) from the TSBD employees was to see who knew where Oswald really was during the shooting.

 

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