Should FBI Agent James Hosty be solely blamed for the murder of John F. Kennedy

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 2/26/2019 at 7:35 PM, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, after Hosty was transferred to Kansas City, he allegedly told Carver Gayton that such was the case.

Oswald was an informant.  

Jim,

I agree that "Oswald's" connections to the FBI were deliberately obscured by the FBI. 

But on whom or what could he have been informing?

"Oswald" never hung around any genuine pro-Castro leftists! "Oswald" never actually had any members of his one-man "Fair Play for Cuba" Committee! "Oswald" didn't socialize with genuine communists or socialists!

(Instead, he knew and socialized with White Russians! And if you believe Perry Russo, Clay Shaw, David Ferry, Guy Banister and violently anti-Castro Cubans! Not a lefty in sight!)

You could argue that "Oswald" was informing on the violent right for the FBI, but that's never seemed very plausible to me - what Shaw, Banister and Ferry were doing was all in plain sight, sanctioned by most of the national security state. What did the FBI need "Oswald" to tell them?

As far as we know, "Oswald" never had any money - doesn't the FBI hook their informants by paying them a monthly stipend? 

Might I suggest instead that "Oswald" was a creature of the CIA, and as the pre-selected patsy for the assassination, he was sheep-dipped by the CIA as an FBI informant to embarrass and implicate the FBI? An operation, that, by the way, would guarantee that the FBI would move heaven and earth to hide any evidence of a conspiracy, for fear that it would point back at them!  No wonder that Orest Pena, the owner of the Habana Bar in New Orleans, and a witness to multiple visits to his bar by FBI agent Warren DeBrueys and someone who looked very much like our "Oswald" was lead-piped in the head before he could meet with Harold Weisberg in 1967! No wonder that the license plate of the car associated with the visits by DeBrueys and the "Oswald" lookalike was never investigated!

(Even though the FBI did not assassinate the president!)

Further, that the sinister implications of the  "dirty rumor" as related by Bill Alexander, Waggoner Carr, and Allen Dulles himself all suggested that if the Warren Commission pulled on the "FBI informant" thread, the ensuing scandal would wreck the FBI, even if they had nothing to do with the assassination! I believe that Earl Warren and the rest of the commissioners (except Allen Dulles) then took that bait.

Whatever the motivations were, the hints that "Oswald" had FBI connections guaranteed that there would be no serious look at "Oswald's" murky contacts with people who were clearly intelligence-related.

And that was precisely what Allen Dulles and the CIA most desired.

[Joe Bauer]

Lee and Marina's extreme and long term financial stress after arriving in the U.S. and where they couldn't even afford a crib for baby June and instead had her sleeping in an open suitcase, Marina could not afford basic prenatal and needed dental care, they lived in the cheapest of apartments or lived with others and couldn't afford to go anywhere except by walking, bus or the generosity of friends with cars who also helped them in moving, etc.,  has always been a sticking point in my mind regarding Oswald being on some informant side income payroll.

If Lee was earning a little on the side in this role of paid informant, it sure must have been absolute peanuts. Sure didn't help their at times desperate financial situation.

Portly and perjury convicted NO attorney Dean Andrews once stated that after hearing Lee Oswald was passing out pamphlets just blocks away from his office one day, he ( Andrews) waddled down to confront Oswald over an unpaid bill due Andrews that Oswald hadn't paid.

Andrews claimed that when he reached Oswald he asked Oswald what he was doing and Oswald stated "it's just a job." At least Oswald was making a little income from that endeavor.

Getting back to Hosty ... his credibility was shot from the get go imo.

He doesn't tell the WC he had destroyed incredibly important file material his office had on Oswald the day or day after Ruby whacked Oswald in the DPD basement. When asked why he kept this incredibly important action truth from the WC even though he had sworn to tell them "The truth, WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God" ( and he was CATHOLIC!) he stated blithely ..."they didn't ask."

And was the Oswald file material he burned just a scrap of paper?

I once heard a radio station interview of Hosty regarding his book.  In the interview he nonchalantly volunteered this tidbit regarding the Warren Commission and the relationship his employer had with several of the WC members.

Hosty said " we had THREE OF THEM."

He mentioned Ford, Russell and was about to mention the 3rd member who was feeding info to his agency when the host interrupted with another question.

Hosty was all about protecting his employer, himself and his job and pension versus being totally honest about what he knew regards Oswald and everything else related.

And the NO FBI office must have had a substantial file on Oswald.  Has this file been honestly revealed to the public? 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

I kind of disagree with that.

If you follow Newman's Oswald and the CIA there are two phases to Oswald in New Orleans. He calls the first phase the undercover part and the second phase the breakout part.

In the first part its pretty obvious that Oswald was leafleting to leftist groups in hopes of snuffing out some Castro sympathizers. (See pages 309-11)  This would include the NOCPA group which included professors from Tulane.  And also students like Hugh Murray.

That postulation in that book is that Oswald laid the groundwork for the provocateur stuff first, and then went public to discredit what he had done.  Which culminates in the Butler interview where he is exposed as a Russian traveler.

As per funding, I agree with Jim Garrison on this.  Oswald's whole role/profile was to display himself as an itinerant wastrel.  The payoff would come later. 

[Stephanie Goldberg]

17 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Lee and Marina's extreme and long term financial stress after arriving in the U.S. and where they couldn't even afford a crib for baby June and instead had her sleeping in an open suitcase, Marina could not afford basic prenatal and needed dental care, they lived in the cheapest of apartments or lived with others and couldn't afford to go anywhere except by walking, bus or the generosity of friends with cars who also helped them in moving, etc.,  has always been a sticking point in my mind regarding Oswald being on some informant side income payroll.

If Lee was earning a little on the side in this role of paid informant, it sure must have been absolute peanuts. Sure didn't help their at times desperate financial situation.

Portly and perjury convicted NO attorney Dean Andrews once stated that after hearing Lee Oswald was passing out pamphlets just blocks away from his office one day, he ( Andrews) waddled down to confront Oswald over an unpaid bill due Andrews that Oswald hadn't paid.

Andrews claimed that when he reached Oswald he asked Oswald what he was doing and Oswald stated "it's just a job." At least Oswald was making a little income from that endeavor.

Getting back to Hosty ... his credibility was shot from the get go imo.

He doesn't tell the WC he had destroyed incredibly important file material his office had on Oswald the day or day after Ruby whacked Oswald in the DPD basement. When asked why he kept this incredibly important action truth from the WC even though he had sworn to tell them "The truth, WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God" ( and he was CATHOLIC!) he stated blithely ..."they didn't ask."

And was the Oswald file material he burned just a scrap of paper?

I once heard a radio station interview of Hosty regarding his book.  In the interview he nonchalantly volunteered this tidbit regarding the Warren Commission and the relationship his employer had with several of the WC members.

Hosty said " we had THREE OF THEM."

He mentioned Ford, Russell and was about to mention the 3rd member who was feeding info to his agency when the host interrupted with another question.

Hosty was all about protecting his employer, himself and his job and pension versus being totally honest about what he knew regards Oswald and everything else related.

And the NO FBI office must have had a substantial file on Oswald.  Has this file been honestly revealed to the public? 

 Oswald's financial state never bothered me when considering the possibility that he might be an informant.  And while I don't have any books in front of me at the moment, didn't one of them - maybe the Jim Garrison book? - say something about Oswald paying people who handed out leaflets for him?  

As far as Hosty goes, my impression from reading his book was that he got used and came to realize that fact.  But I agree that he was loyal to the FBI in spite of that.  

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:22 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Here it is, if you have not read it.  The magnificent Edwin Black essay on the plot to kill JFK in Chicago.

In my view, it might be the best essay on the JFK case published in the seventies.  It is certainly one of the most important of that decade.

http://thechicagoplot.com/The Chicago Plot.pdf

The other side hates this article.  And its easy to see why. Some apparatus was hunting JFK in the fall of 1963.  And it appears that Oswald may have been the informant on it.

Jim,

Thanks for posting that article.

Is there any evidence, other than the name "Lee", that the unknown informant in the Chicago case was LHO?

[James DiEugenio]

To my knowledge, I do not think so.

But I have to qualify this by saying I am not well versed on the Homer Echeverria story.

[Joseph McBride]

In addition to the FBI documents, there is this from Anthony Summers:  "Officer J. B. Hicks was on duty in the relevant office until after 2:00 A.M. [November 23] and is certain Oswald was not arraigned at 1:35." According to Tippit researcher Larry Ray Harris, when Oswald was arraigned at 7:10 p.m. on November 22 on the charge of murdering Tippit, he angrily exclaimed, "That's ridiculous!"

And I write in INTO THE NIGHTMARE,

When I asked [Detective James] Leavelle why the Tippit killing seemed to take precedence over the presidential assassination in terms of early arraignment, and when I told Leavelle about the FBI report saying that Oswald was never arraigned for the shooting of the President, the detective made a revealing admission: "Now, the thing was, the Captain [Will Fritz, the head of Homicide, who was running the interrogation of Oswald] asked me if I had enough to make a case on him for the Tippit killing. And I said, 'Oh, yeah, I got plenty on that.' . . . I had him identified by about three or four people. And so Cap said, 'Well, go ahead and make a tight case on him in case we have trouble making this one on the presidential shooting.' So that was one reason he was arraigned early on the Tippit shooting. But I was thinking that we also arraigned him somewhere down the line on the shooting of the President. But I wouldn’t swear to that offhand.”

Edited March 1, 2019 by Joseph McBride

[Ray Mitcham]

Quote by  Jim De E "In the first part its pretty obvious that Oswald was leafleting to leftist groups in hopes of snuffing out some Castro sympathizers."

 

I sincerely hope you meant "sniffing out", Jim. "Snuffing out" seems a bit over the top.😎

Edited March 1, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[James DiEugenio]

LOL

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

In addition to the FBI documents, there is this from Anthony Summers:  "Officer J. B. Hicks was on duty in the relevant office until after 2:00 A.M. [November 23] and is certain Oswald was not arraigned at 1:35." According to Tippit researcher Larry Ray Harris, when Oswald was arraigned at 7:10 p.m. on November 22 on the charge of murdering Tippit, he angrily exclaimed, "That's ridiculous!"

And I write in INTO THE NIGHTMARE,

When I asked [Detective James] Leavelle why the Tippit killing seemed to take precedence over the presidential assassination in terms of early arraignment, and when I told Leavelle about the FBI report saying that Oswald was never arraigned for the shooting of the President, the detective made a revealing admission: "Now, the thing was, the Captain [Will Fritz, the head of Homicide, who was running the interrogation of Oswald] asked me if I had enough to make a case on him for the Tippit killing. And I said, 'Oh, yeah, I got plenty on that.' . . . I had him identified by about three or four people. And so Cap said, 'Well, go ahead and make a tight case on him in case we have trouble making this one on the presidential shooting.' So that was one reason he was arraigned early on the Tippit shooting. But I was thinking that we also arraigned him somewhere down the line on the shooting of the President. But I wouldn’t swear to that offhand.”

 

From my old paper on Oswald's interrogations (page 223 etc.).

A new (and very different) one will be out in a few weeks

 

The non arraignment is confirmed by Hosty HERE

 

And Justice of the Peace David Johnston who is being interviewed by ABC’s Roger Sharp on the 23rd below states that ‘the complaint’ was not read out to the accused at all, and that is because Oswald was asleep in his cell. And he confirms it! The damning Johnston statement in the video below nullifies the fairy tales above completely and only shows that Oswald was only arraigned for the Tippit murder.

 

Not enough? He must have misspoken…….on TV no less. During Henry Wade’s press conference which ran just after Oswald’s the following exchange takes place: Justice of the Peace Johnston watched with fascination. The questioning turned a corner when the reporters reminded Wade that Oswald said he didn’t know he had been charged with the assassination of the President. Wade said he 224 had been filed on. Which was right? “I do not know,” the D.A. replied. “He has just been charged. I know he has been advised of the other and taken before the magistrate.” One of the newspapermen put the question to Johnston: “Did he answer that question whether the man had been advised that he’s been charged? The man said here that he didn’t know he had been, Dave. How about that?” David Johnston thought it over. “He has not been advised that the charge of the murder of the President, because he is on capital offense on the other.” The reporters could not decipher the sentence. “He has not been advised?” one asked. The judge said: “He has not been advised.” “When will the arraignment be for the President?” Wade reclaimed his press conference. “I imagine in—tonight sometime.” The interviewers could not seem to let go of the question. “He has not been arraigned on the assassination?” “No.” (The Day Kennedy Was Killed by Jim Bishop, chapter 12 Midnight).

Oswald was being photographed and had his finger prints taken again and then went to his cell.

Timothy Cweik starts digging deeper into this shortly after and finds out that only 4 newspapers as reporting ‘the arraignment’ that weekend; the Philadelphia Bulletin (see next page’s article), the Dallas Times-Herald, the New York Times and the Washington Evening Star. Of those, only the Bulletin and the Times actually used the word "arraignment". And Looking into this further, Timothy Cweik found no follow up stories in any of the 4 papers, including in "wraps-ups" of the entire weekend. Stranger still; no other publications picked up the story. In an effort to find out more, Cweik contacted the reporter for the Bulletin who had landed this apparent major scoop, John McCullough. McCullough declined an interview. He did appear before the Warren Commission, but did not offer information about the arraignment, nor was he asked about it. The story got even stranger when Cweik looked more closely at the other 3 papers. The Times article appeared in the microfilm records of the newspaper, but not in any actual hard copies that were tracked down. And to top it off, the Evening Star 225 reporter was Jeremiah O'Leary. O'Leary was once described by Carl Bernstein as having "a valuable personal relationship" with the CIA during the 1960s. The article on the next page is littered with mistakes, but the so called fake arraignment are definitely the crown jewels of fakery. 

Check the link to the pdf for the newspaper articles. From page 223 onwards.

[Guest]

From my up and coming paper

Just after that arraignment Oswald is led out of 317.

Oswald is being escorted out by Boyd, Sims and Hall.

This film is shot from in front of the door of 317. 

The next one is the same scene shot with the camera near the door leading to the elevator.

Here are two films taken from opposite angles showing Oswald’s departure from Fritz’s office on his way to the jail elevator to have him appear for his third line-up with the Davis sisters.

After that line-up Oswald makes his return to the corridor, he is caught the second he emerges through the same door he just went into half an hour before that.

The patsy sequence. Listen carefully! Forget the building remark. 

 

 

The full text of that particular videos segment is this:

 

Oswald: “I’d like to have some legal representation, these police officers have not allowed me to have any.” “I don’t know what this is all about”

Reporter: “Did you kill The President?”

Oswald: “No Sir I didn’t, people keep asking me that.”

 Reporter: inaudible as another reporter is asking “Did you shoot The President”

Oswald: “I work in that building”

Reporter: “Where you in the building at the time?”

Oswald: “Naturally if I work in that building, yes Sir.”

 Reporter: “Did you shoot The President?”

Oswald: “No, they are taking me in because of the fact that I lived in The Soviet Union.” “I’m just a patsy!”

 Reporter: “Did you shoot The President?”

 

 

 

Oswald asked for legal representation straight after his arraignment and also after the line-up he was sent to straight after.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

The damning Johnston statement in the video below nullifies the fairy tales above completely and only shows that Oswald was only arraigned for the Tippit murder.

 

 

 

Bart,

Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not?
Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment.
Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. in your records.
Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right.
Mr. BALL. 1:35?
Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35.
Mr. BALL. That was where?
Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name.
I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, but I believe he might have.
Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at 1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there.
Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out.

 

The jail checkout card does not show him as being checked out of the jail between 1:10 AM and 10:25 AM. The Lieutenant is probably Lt. Karl P. Knight, and JB is probably J.B. Hicks.

DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 114

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

From Batchelor Exhibit 5002, page 19:

 

If Oswald wasn't arraigned, and he wasn't checked out of jail, what the hell was going on at 1:35 in the morning of the 23rd?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Robert Harper]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

f Oswald wasn't arraigned, and he wasn't checked out of jail, what the hell was going on at 1:35 in the morning of the 23rd?

 

No matter how much I read of this case, I still get amazed when I encounter information I don't recall encountering. But the one thing that doesn't change is the internal anger produced by thinking about the complicity of the "press" and the "government."  The complicity between the "military" and the "government" always existed to some extent, but post 1941 became almost a branch of government itself.

 The facts and connections and deceptions and - even evidence - had to be tracked down by amateurs, not career investigators or law enforcers of integrity or an independent press.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bart,

Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not?
Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment.
Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. in your records.
Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right.
Mr. BALL. 1:35?
Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35.
Mr. BALL. That was where?
Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name.
I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, but I believe he might have.
Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at 1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there.
Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out.

 

The jail checkout card does not show him as being checked out of the jail between 1:10 AM and 10:25 AM. The Lieutenant is probably Lt. Karl P. Knight, and JB is probably J.B. Hicks.

DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 114

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

From Batchelor Exhibit 5002, page 19:

 

If Oswald wasn't arraigned, and he wasn't checked out of jail, what the hell was going on at 1:35 in the morning of the 23rd?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Steve they are covering for each other, unless the jailers were taking a nap.

Just like T.L. Baker's report does.

 

So you have Hosty and the jailers who say it did not happen with their reports.

Leavelle as per Joe McBride's interview.

The newspapers barely make a mention of it.

And then there is Oswald who on Sunday morning asks whether he is being filed on for the murder of the Pres. (this becomes apparent in Leavelle's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said “I am filed on for the President’s murder, is that right?” 

 

That was on Sunday morning......so if Oswald was arraigned as per Fritz in the middle of the night then he should have known.

 

This all against Fritz and co.and their so called statements

 

Hmmmm my money is on the first bunch.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Bart Kamp
More info added

[Guest]

Nothing happened, they only made it 01:35 as before that they were all noticed downstairs, and Oswald had already been photographed, handed his shirt over and finger printed and was back in his cell, while on the third fl they were still yapping to the press.