In Dealey Plaza today

[Cory Santos]

I am here on business and went down to Dealey.  Few observations from this visit   First, I cannot understand why the bookstore continues to only stock LHO did it books.  Posner and Bugliosi and Mailer are prominently displayed.  Fonzo's book is there, nothing from the film JFK which renewed so much intrest in the 1990s.  There is an odd picture of LBJ alone smiling for sale   The plaque outside the TSBD says LHO allegedly shot JFK with allegedly circled.  

Lee Bowers really had a good viewpoint of the grassy knoll fence. 

 

I still say the best shot actually was where the drainage grates are before the knoll and overpass meet.

I dont see how anyone can say shots came from either of the pergolas.  There was no concealment nor was escape possible.

Why were people watching from the steps of the TSBD?  Not the best spot when one could walk further down elm into the plaza and really get close and see JFK.  

The manholes in Dealey still intrigue me.

[Micah Mileto]

Can a civilian physically go into the south knoll sewers or are they welded/locked shut?

[John Kozlowski]

11 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

Can a civilian physically go into the south knoll sewers or are they welded/locked shut?

I'd be suprised if they were welded shut. Would make it a hassle for matinence. 

[Cory Santos]

I didnt try to lift them so not sure.  I believe I read they were accessible previously, now, dont know.  It is a good location for the head shot.  It has concealment and escape potential.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Cory Santos

[Ron Bulman]

7 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

I didnt try to lift them so not sure.  I believe I read they were accessible previously, now, dont know.  It is a good location for the head shot.  It has concealment and escape potential.

What was the escape potential?  I don't agree with the head shot from there, back and to the left and all.

[John Kozlowski]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

What was the escape potential?  I don't agree with the head shot from there, back and to the left and all.

I'm with you on that. Plus id think if a police officer had seen the shooter they could have had him cornered with nowhere to go. 

[Micah Mileto]

10 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

I'm with you on that. Plus id think if a police officer had seen the shooter they could have had him cornered with nowhere to go. 

There is more than one storm drain/manhole cover on the South Knoll.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Micah Mileto

[John Kozlowski]

I figured that but if a shot was seen couldnt they just radio for officers to go down into the sewers and cut the shooter off at some point?

[John Kozlowski]

14 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

There is more than one storm drain/manhole cover on the South Knoll.

I'm not familiar with the sewer system in DP but I really never bought into the shooter in the sewer. Unless the police were in on it 100% I think it would be too risky to put someone down there. Especially someone who isnt the patsy.

[Rick McTague]

All,

While not really focusing on the sewer covers, I thought I'd put a link up to a post I made of my annual walking tour of DP back in February for those who don't get to live in Texas.

Regarding the south knoll, no one would have to use sewer access there to either shoot or escape, as my photos will show.  Plenty of wide open access to a large parking lot and out to various streets from the south knoll.  Given the # people on the overpass towards the north side, a sewer escape makes sense.  There was the witness of the guy (forgot his name) who borrowed a car from a dealer close to DP and on Friday afternoon came back into the dealership muddy and disheveled with no car - which was found in the RR parking lot behind the fence.

Enjoy!

Rick

[Cory Santos]

I think in reviewing the posts above, some appear to think I am talking about the drains on Elm Street.  I am not.

I am speaking of another spot.  I will post some pictures to clarify this issue.

[Gene Kelly]

Rick

I had friends in Dealey Plaza two weekends ago and took similar pictures.  The overall smallness of the site, and the close proximity (to the limousine in the street) with all the potential/proposed shooter locations is a strong and lasting first impression.  Up high, on that 6th TSBD floor, is the least likely location.  All that I've ever read - from experts/knowledgeable snipers - convinces me of that.  The spotter is the unsung hero of the sniper pair. While the shooter sets elevation and windage on the gun and fires good shots, the spotter’s job is far more involved. Typically, they’re using much better optics than the shooter and are responsible for identifying the target and telling the shooter when to pull the trigger. Once the shot’s fired, the spotter looks for whether the bullet hit the target; if not, the spotter quickly tells the shooter how to adjust, and another shot is fired. Because of the nature of their missions, snipers travel with very little gear, patiently moving under the cover of brush or night (but they never travel alone). Snipers teams often have to stay completely still for hours or days at a time, to avoid detection, waiting for the right moment to take the shot. The sniper team uses maps or photographs to determine the best route to the objective, and (reading about tactics) they:

• walk or "stalk" from the drop-off point to the objective
• set up a position, and verify that the position is well camouflaged

• establish an escape route and a second, well-camouflaged fallback position

• locate target (or know it's on its way), get into position; taking a spot on the ground that offers best field of fire ... and the spotter lies on the ground behind the sniper
• work together to range the target, read the wind, and angle and adjust for other variables that may affect the shot. And then they wait for the target
• just take the shot and get out of there

In modern day, scout sniper teams typically consist of 4-8-man teams consisting of shooter, spotter, radioman, and additional personnel to provide security.  Its hard to imagine that Dealey Plaza was any different.

Gene

 

[Micah Mileto]

23 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Rick

I had friends in Dealey Plaza two weekends ago and took similar pictures.  The overall smallness of the site, and the close proximity (to the limousine in the street) with all the potential/proposed shooter locations is a strong and lasting first impression.  Up high, on that 6th TSBD floor, is the least likely location.  All that I've ever read - from experts/knowledgeable snipers - convinces me of that.  The spotter is the unsung hero of the sniper pair. While the shooter sets elevation and windage on the gun and fires good shots, the spotter’s job is far more involved. Typically, they’re using much better optics than the shooter and are responsible for identifying the target and telling the shooter when to pull the trigger. Once the shot’s fired, the spotter looks for whether the bullet hit the target; if not, the spotter quickly tells the shooter how to adjust, and another shot is fired. Because of the nature of their missions, snipers travel with very little gear, patiently moving under the cover of brush or night (but they never travel alone). Snipers teams often have to stay completely still for hours or days at a time, to avoid detection, waiting for the right moment to take the shot. The sniper team uses maps or photographs to determine the best route to the objective, and (reading about tactics) they:

• walk or "stalk" from the drop-off point to the objective
• set up a position, and verify that the position is well camouflaged

   

• establish an escape route and a second, well-camouflaged fallback position

   

• locate target (or know it's on its way), get into position; taking a spot on the ground that offers best field of fire ... and the spotter lies on the ground behind the sniper
• work together to range the target, read the wind, and angle and adjust for other variables that may affect the shot. And then they wait for the target
• just take the shot and get out of there

In modern day, scout sniper teams typically consist of 4-8-man teams consisting of shooter, spotter, radioman, and additional personnel to provide security.  Its hard to imagine that Dealey Plaza was any different.

 

Gene

 

 

Isn't that for when a shot is taken from a mile away instead of 200-300 feet away?

[Gene Kelly]

Yes ... but there's some speculation that one shot may've been distant.  Range/wind and other variables aside, the main point I was struck by in researching sniper tactics is that the site is chosen with egress in mind ... the shooters want to escape, and they don't go it alone.  They scout or plan the shot (in advance), use well-camouflaged Plan B fallback positions, and they must know somehow that the target is on the way.  I think these considerations provide clues as to where the Dealey shots originated from, and how the shooter teams were organized. 

[Ron Bulman]

I've been to/through  DP, parts of it about a dozen times regarding looking around on foot.  Driven through it many more working, passing through.  I've mentioned before on here, living in the mid cities between Fort Worth and Dallas a get out of town evening cruise in high school in 73 was down the still new and modern airport freeway (Two lanes each way!) to Commerce.  East on it to Houston.  North on it to Elm. West on it to Stemmons and home again.

Having hunted deer in my youth then looking over the picket fence on the gassy knoll at the X's in the street years later I thought, who needs a scope?  Though one would be useful for a precise shot. 

Standing under the second set of windows of the Dal-Tex building (where Zapruder's dress making firm was located on the second or third floor) I thought a floor or two up would be a great spot for a deer stand looking about a hundred yards down Elm.  Going back on the 50th with my daughter this was reinforced looking out the window of the soda/sandwich shop they have there now.

Last fall crouching beside the last pillar on the South side of the triple overpass I though maybe Sherry Fister was right about at least one shot.  I was pretty much concealed from anyone on the other half of it.  When JFK rounded the corner from Houston to Elm I'd of been facing him pretty much straight on.  I've no doubt Chris Kyle with a scoped 22 could have taken out JFK's larynx. 

And escaped over the tracks to the parking lot below.  Before anybody realized what had happened.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Ron Bulman