In Dealey Plaza today

[Gene Kelly]

Ron

I think the ability to escape is an essential consideration ... and the South Knoll shot origin and terminal Annex parking lot are ideal in that regard.  We've discussed the pros/cons of this South Knoll location before, in an October 2018 Umbrella Man EF thread.  Various knowledgeable posters have previously suggested that the emphasis on Zapruder, the Grassy Knoll fence and the Bookstore Depository are red herrings.  The main sniper was forward and to the left .... and escaped unnoticed.   The South Knoll location invokes controversies such as the hole in the windshield, the throat wound, and Tosh Plumlee's story.  It also strongly implies that the Zapruder filming is somehow a staged part of the entire scenario. A South Knoll shooter explains how they avoid collateral damage with Nellie and Jackie (all part of the plan) although hitting Governor Connally was not apparently part of the plan (David Lifton discusses why this threw a monkey wrench into the plot (and if they wanted to hit Connally, they could easily have done so).  Al Carrier discusses the possibility of an excellent marksman, who fired through the windshield and hit the President ... or given the elevations involved, could have gone over the windshield (or through a small space in the frame).  It was only 60+ yards away, with an excellent frontal vantage that didn't change as the Limo slowly advanced towards/into the kill zone. Here's an excerpt from Carrier's November 2004 EF thread entitled "South Knoll; Ballistics, Shot Trajectories":  

Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

This also explains why the decoy TSBD shooter - initially been facing the President from the sixth floor when the presidential limousine rounded the corner - waited, and took the more difficult shot from behind. That delay and more difficult shot from the rear was part of a triangulated ambush, with shooters on the Knolls able to use the overpass railroad tracks for escape routes. Such a positioning of the limousine for the kill shot would appear to be associated with Zapruder's camera POV, as well the expected echo distortion. This is why I'm so focused on the sniper/shooter priority of egress and to escape unnoticed. The Terminal Annex building's parking lot (an excellent sniper location with favorable ingress/egress).  The DCM or signal man is facing towards those locations.  This location affords an ideal pan angle on the limousine as it proceeded down Elm, with the greatest elevation over the limo's obstructions. The brightness of the noonday sun above the South Knoll renders anyone looking in that direction (from the street or limousine) essentially blind to the whole area ... which is also a classic sniper tactic.  By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.  The south end of the overpass is where James Tague was standing (just below) and as Ron Ecker pointed out, Tague possibly encountered the shooter, a "patrolman" who turned up by Tague and asked him what happened (Tague's original account before he changed his story.)  The there's the two Dallas police officers (White and Foster) ostensibly in charge of keeping persons off of the overpass during the motorcade ... both happened to submit a written report on December 4, 1963 in which both used the exact same phrase to describe their instructions:  

“As I recall, he instructed me to keep all persons off the overpass at this location during the parade.  It was my understanding that I was to keep all unauthorized persons away from the location…”

For me, it all comes together when the South Knoll is added to the mix.

Gene 

 

[David Boylan]

An old post here:

Last week we reported Hemming’s identification of Nestor Izquierdo, a black Cuban member of Brigade 2506, as the spotter in the Dal-Tex Building. We also reported Izquierdo’s close relationship with Rip Robertson, a CIA operative who ran a CIA front company on Stock Island hauling packs of arms into Cuba before the Bay of Pigs. Robertson captained one of the two boats delivering members of Brigade 2506 into the ill-fated Bay of Pigs. Some believe Robertson may have been involved in the assassination, a belief fueled by a photograph of a man watching the motorcade in Dealey Plaza who bears a striking resemblance to Robertson, as well as by Robertson’s close association with flashy Mafioso Johnny Rosselli who was involved in the CIA’s plots to kill Castro. FBI reports indicate Rosselli met twice in Miami with Jack Ruby in the months preceding the assassination.

 

Izquierdo was also close to Rafael Quintero and Manuel Artime. In August of 1963 Izquierdo was also an asset of JMWAVE.

[Cory Santos]

I had another thought while in the plaza- I was in Dallas to judge the pay per view fights at AT&T Stadium- as I was adjusting for some photos, a lady asked me where the film was made.  She meant Zapruder.  I showed her the pedestal right next to me was where he stood with the help of his secretary.  Two things occurred to me that were odd.  First, Why did he need to stand on it?  Standing right next to it you have a fine view of the cars going down elm.  It was not that crowded and because of the downward angle of the street, he would have had a fine film standing on the ground.  Actually, he could have stood in several places including the steps right next to the pedestal and got the same film.  Really, why did he not go right down to the street and film him?  Why?  Second, the pedestal he stood on is not flat.  Probably for an older person, it would be tricky to stand on it.  I know, I tried.  I am in my forties and a former college athlete and still in good shape.  It is tricky.  

These two oddities I believe are not "strange coincidences" the term I have so often used here and in my lectures. 

I know; conspiracy thinking.  But, really, the fact he stood where he did defies common sense and rational thinking.

 

[David G. Healy]

2 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

I had another thought while in the plaza- I was in Dallas to judge the pay per view fights at AT&T Stadium- as I was adjusting for some photos, a lady asked me where the film was made.  She meant Zapruder.  I showed her the pedestal right next to me was where he stood with the help of his secretary.  Two things occurred to me that were odd.  First, Why did he need to stand on it?  Standing right next to it you have a fine view of the cars going down elm.  It was not that crowded and because of the downward angle of the street, he would have had a fine film standing on the ground.  Actually, he could have stood in several places including the steps right next to the pedestal and got the same film.  Really, why did he not go right down to the street and film him?  Why?  Second, the pedestal he stood on is not flat.  Probably for an older person, it would be tricky to stand on it.  I know, I tried.  I am in my forties and a former college athlete and still in good shape.  It is tricky.  

These two oddities I believe are not "strange coincidences" the term I have so often used here and in my lectures. 

I know; conspiracy thinking.  But, really, the fact he stood where he did defies common sense and rational thinking.

 

a question I asked myself sitting on that pedestal nearly 37 years ago...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BELL-HOWELL-CO-FILMO-COMPANION-DOUBLE-RUN-EIGHT-VINTAGE-MOVIE-CAMERA/181760317784?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D57159%26meid%3Dcfbfef53dc8e4e869f85c94c79293079%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D173849546375%26itm%3D181760317784&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

speculation: imagine what you could do with this camera shooting the same KODAK film in addition to Zap's camera on the pedestal that afternoon?

Edited April 1, 2019 by David G. Healy

[Rick McTague]

On 3/28/2019 at 11:48 PM, Ron Bulman said:

(Ron, I added some pics from the places you describe from my walking tour in February, 2019).

I've been to/through  DP, parts of it about a dozen times regarding looking around on foot.  Driven through it many more working, passing through.  I've mentioned before on here, living in the mid cities between Fort Worth and Dallas a get out of town evening cruise in high school in 73 was down the still new and modern airport freeway (Two lanes each way!) to Commerce.  East on it to Houston.  North on it to Elm. West on it to Stemmons and home again.

Having hunted deer in my youth then looking over the picket fence on the gassy knoll at the X's in the street years later I thought, who needs a scope?  Though one would be useful for a precise shot. 

(From February 2019 about 4-5' down from the 90' angle in the picket fence.)

Standing under the second set of windows of the Dal-Tex building (where Zapruder's dress making firm was located on the second or third floor) I thought a floor or two up would be a great spot for a deer stand looking about a hundred yards down Elm.  Going back on the 50th with my daughter this was reinforced looking out the window of the soda/sandwich shop they have there now.

(I thought I got a pic from that angle looking down Elm but this is my attempt at recreating Altgens 5 with the Dal-Tex 2nd floor in clear view.)

Last fall crouching beside the last pillar on the South side of the triple overpass I though maybe Sherry Fister was right about at least one shot.  I was pretty much concealed from anyone on the other half of it.  When JFK rounded the corner from Houston to Elm I'd of been facing him pretty much straight on.  I've no doubt Chris Kyle with a scoped 22 could have taken out JFK's larynx. 

(This was taken about 20' from the south end of the triple overpass, right over where James Tague was standing, at a spot like you describe, easy to conceal and escape.  Plus, the trajectory from there to the limo make sense ala Sherry Fiester.)

(And escaped over the tracks to the parking lot below.  Before anybody realized what had happened.

 

[Rick McTague]

19 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ron

I think the ability to escape is an essential consideration ... and the South Knoll shot origin and terminal Annex parking lot are ideal in that regard.  We've discussed the pros/cons of this South Knoll location before, in an October 2018 Umbrella Man EF thread.  Various knowledgeable posters have previously suggested that the emphasis on Zapruder, the Grassy Knoll fence and the Bookstore Depository are red herrings.  The main sniper was forward and to the left .... and escaped unnoticed.   The South Knoll location invokes controversies such as the hole in the windshield, the throat wound, and Tosh Plumlee's story.  It also strongly implies that the Zapruder filming is somehow a staged part of the entire scenario. A South Knoll shooter explains how they avoid collateral damage with Nellie and Jackie (all part of the plan) although hitting Governor Connally was not apparently part of the plan (David Lifton discusses why this threw a monkey wrench into the plot (and if they wanted to hit Connally, they could easily have done so).  Al Carrier discusses the possibility of an excellent marksman, who fired through the windshield and hit the President ... or given the elevations involved, could have gone over the windshield (or through a small space in the frame).  It was only 60+ yards away, with an excellent frontal vantage that didn't change as the Limo slowly advanced towards/into the kill zone. Here's an excerpt from Carrier's November 2004 EF thread entitled "South Knoll; Ballistics, Shot Trajectories":  

Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

This also explains why the decoy TSBD shooter - initially been facing the President from the sixth floor when the presidential limousine rounded the corner - waited, and took the more difficult shot from behind. That delay and more difficult shot from the rear was part of a triangulated ambush, with shooters on the Knolls able to use the overpass railroad tracks for escape routes. Such a positioning of the limousine for the kill shot would appear to be associated with Zapruder's camera POV, as well the expected echo distortion. This is why I'm so focused on the sniper/shooter priority of egress and to escape unnoticed. The Terminal Annex building's parking lot (an excellent sniper location with favorable ingress/egress).  The DCM or signal man is facing towards those locations.  This location affords an ideal pan angle on the limousine as it proceeded down Elm, with the greatest elevation over the limo's obstructions. The brightness of the noonday sun above the South Knoll renders anyone looking in that direction (from the street or limousine) essentially blind to the whole area ... which is also a classic sniper tactic.  By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.  The south end of the overpass is where James Tague was standing (just below) and as Ron Ecker pointed out, Tague possibly encountered the shooter, a "patrolman" who turned up by Tague and asked him what happened (Tague's original account before he changed his story.)  The there's the two Dallas police officers (White and Foster) ostensibly in charge of keeping persons off of the overpass during the motorcade ... both happened to submit a written report on December 4, 1963 in which both used the exact same phrase to describe their instructions:  

 

“As I recall, he instructed me to keep all persons off the overpass at this location during the parade.  It was my understanding that I was to keep all unauthorized persons away from the location…”

 

For me, it all comes together when the South Knoll is added to the mix.

Gene 

 

Gene,

Here is a picture from about 20' from the south end of the TUP facing towards the parking lot - like you said, very east entrance and egress from that point.

Thanks

Rick

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

Gene,

Here is a picture from about 20' from the south end of the TUP facing towards the parking lot - like you said, very east entrance and egress from that point.

Thanks

Rick

Thanks for posting these Rick. Right between that transformer in the center of this picture and the last pillar which one can barely see behind the leafless tree is where I crouched last fall.  Pretty much invisible from where you took this picture and further North where Holland and others were.  You and Gene mention the Post Office parking lot just past this.  Another option regarding escape is over the tracks.  The steel fence was not there in other pictures I've seen from the time period.  Past the tracks went down a 15-20 foot embankment to a more remote parking lot for a small metal building manufacturing facility of some sort.  I found a better picture a year or two ago but you can see it in the bottom right of this one.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=743354AC10DCDEF078241D1620A5FD7248F35FF2&thid=OIP.ohKU63qxO21mTMUKdiGnhAHaFj&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FPolitics%2Fdealey-plaza-dallas-gty-jt-171021_4x3_992.jpg&exph=744&expw=992&q=dealey+plaza+overpass+1963&selectedindex=61&qpvt=dealey+plaza+overpass+1963&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6

[Gene Kelly]

Thanks Rick ... excellent pictures.  of all the possible locations, this one seems to be ideal for ingress/egress.    And that would be a priority for any sniper or shooter team.