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Jim Hargrove

Amazing Psychic Prediction by the Man Called "Lee Harvey Oswald"

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LHO and Marina allegedly met Ruth Paine in February, 1963. However, LHO's boss at Leslie Welding told the WC that when LHO quit, he wrote to the company and asked that his check be sent to him in Irving, TX. This is late Sept or the first week in October, 1962, four months before he and his wife allegedly met Ruth Paine.

WC testimony of Tommy Bargas (emphasis added):

Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there. 
Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th, 1962? 
Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember. 
Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th? 
Mr. BARGAS. It is possible. 
Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated? 
Mr. BARGAS. Yes. 
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment? 
Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours. 
Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time? 
Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that. 
Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day? 
Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing." 
In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say. 
Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said he was up there in Irving somewhere I--don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it. I never had seen him since then and the last time I heard of him was when his name sounded off on the radio. 
Mr. JENNER. Where were you then? 
Mr. BARGAS. I was there at the plant. 

How did "LHO" know he could get mail in Irving four months before he and Marina allegedly met Ruth Paine?

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Good catch...

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If Bargas is correct, it's looking like the missing address below is somewhere in Irving;

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for---at first, for some time he stayed at the YMCA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when I did not live with him.

 

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My guess is that the address he gave for the check to be sent to was a P.O.Box.

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Posted (edited)

Jim,

Good catch, indeed!

I'm curious: why did "Oswald" abruptly quit Leslie Welding in the first place? After all, he and Marina and their daughter had only lived at 2703 Mercedes in Fort Worth since August 10. He may have worked there as late as October 8 (as insinuated by Albert Jenner), but Bargas may well be right - "Oswald" may have quit in mid - September. 

Bargas remembered that "Oswald's" last day was a Friday and he didn't show up on the following Monday or Tuesday. But October 8 was a Monday, and we know that "Oswald" took aptitude tests on Tuesday, October 9 at the Texas Employment Commission and then rented the P.O. Box. "Oswald" started work at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall on Friday, October 12.

Jenner's timeline leaves no real possibility that "Oswald" was in Irving. After all, he was in Fort Worth on Monday and in Dallas the next day.

And remember, that right at this time, Marina and June moved in with Elena Hall while "Oswald" looked for work in Dallas. If Jenner was right, then "Oswald's" last day was Monday, but he was working again by Friday. When, and why exactly, would they have made the arrangements for Marina and June? That makes no sense to me.

But what if Jenner was wrong and Bargas was right?

What if "Oswald" actually did quit in September on a Friday - maybe Sept. 14 or 21? 

Now the timing makes sense.

"Oswald" went to Irving for some unknown reason. Marina and June move in with Elena Hall. "Oswald" completes the Irving assignment and looks for work in Dallas. To me, it seems to fit better.

One other thing:

Two of Jack Ruby's band (Bill Willis, drummer and William Simmons, piano) lived in Irving.

Their address?

2530 W. 5th Street in Irving - 15 miles from Ruby's Carousel Club, but less than two hundred feet from Ruth Paine 2515 W. 5th in Irving.

I wonder if "Oswald" might have spent a few days at that (sensitive) address before moving on to Dallas by October 9? Might that also explain not only the missing residence but also his use of a P.O. Box to conceal that address?

 

Edited by Paul Jolliffe

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Paul,

The 2530 W. 5th St. address in Irving never occurred to me, but if the two musicians were there in the fall of 1963 specifically to keep tabs on the patsy-to-be, then the time frame a year earlier seems unlikely.  American-born LEE Oswald has always seemed more associated with Ruby than Russian-speaking HARVEY.  But who knows what convoluted turns this thing could have taken? I don’t know when the musicians moved into that address, do you?
 

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12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

If Bargas is correct, it's looking like the missing address below is somewhere in Irving;

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for---at first, for some time he stayed at the YMCA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when I did not live with him.

 

Tony,

We know Oswald’s residence for most of this time frame, and it wasn’t in Irving. The apartment Marina couldn’t remember was almost certainly the Coz-I-Eight Apartments at 1404 North Beckley in the South Oak Cliff neighborhood of Dallas.  From Harvey and Lee:

Oswald's residence from October 9th thru October 14th remains unknown, but on October 15th he checked into the Dallas YMCA at 605 N. Ervay. He was assigned room #415, at a cost of $2.25 per day, and remained at the "Y" until October 19.133

George Bouhe told the FBI that after securing employment with JCS Oswald spoke with him by telephone every two or three days for several weeks. Bouhe said that when Oswald moved out of the YMCA, he moved to South Oak Cliff in Dallas. Bouhe's recollections are confirmed by Gary Taylor who told the Warren Commission that he remembered Oswald was living at the "Coz-I-Eight Apartments," 1404 North Beckley, in South Oak Cliff.134 [H&L p. 416]

Oswald moved out of 1404 North Beckley on November 3, 1962, when he moved into apartment #2 at 604 Elsbeth, where he had a brief reconciliation with Marina.

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

The 2530 W. 5th St. address in Irving never occurred to me, but if the two musicians were there in the fall of 1963 specifically to keep tabs on the patsy-to-be, then the time frame a year earlier seems unlikely.  American-born LEE Oswald has always seemed more associated with Ruby than Russian-speaking HARVEY.  But who knows what convoluted turns this thing could have taken? I don’t know when the musicians moved into that address, do you?
 

Jim,

I was (subtly) suggesting that there may have been something sensitive about the 2530 W. 5th address - the "coincidence" of two of Jack Ruby's musicians living fully 15 miles away from their club, but within a snowball's throw of Ruth Paine, Marina, June, Rachel and (on the weekends) "Oswald" seems ridiculously improbable. I know that was in 1963, but the Paine's also lived at that address in the fall of 1962. I don't find it impossible that "Oswald" could have stayed at 2530 W. 5th a year earlier for roughly two weeks. 

If so, then it seems possible (probable?) to me that 2530 W. 5th may have been a CIA safehouse, used by intelligence assets/operatives while carrying out some clandestine assignment.

Also, I find it very curious that "Oswald" left his job in Fort Worth (either in September or early October), seemingly at the drop of a hat, just as the Military Intelligence Community was ramping up pressure on President Kennedy to "do something" about the arms build-up on Cuba. (While the SS-4's would not be discovered until October 16, the conventional arms build-up was real.) JFK responded with his September 13, 1962 press conference in which he restated his belief that offensive weapons had not yet been introduced to Cuba.

As Kennedy warned both the Cubans and his own national security people:

"Unilateral military intervention, on the part of the United States, can not currently be either required or justified. And it is regrettable that loose talk about such action in this country might serve to give a thin color of legitimacy to the communist pretense that such a threat exists . . ."

This agitated JFK's military advisers, who were chafing for a chance to invade Cuba.

The fact that "Oswald" inexplicably left his job in Fort Worth (quite possibly the day after JFK's press conference), was unaccounted for perhaps two weeks,  and then got a job on October 12 at Jaggars in Dallas,  working on sophisticated maps of Cuba, would suggest that these moves were somehow related.

https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/JFKWHA/1962/JFKWHA-126/JFKWHA-126

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5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

We know Oswald’s residence for most of this time frame, and it wasn’t in Irving.

Please nominate the date range you believe relates to Irving (1962)

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Here’s John A’s take on the whole 1962 Irving thing.  The guy who worked for Leslie Welding was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald.  The fellow whose identity he was sharing, American-born LEE Oswald, had a brother (Robert) living in Fort Worth.  And LEE knew other people living in Fort Worth.

By comparison, HARVEY Oswald had no one other than an estranged wife and a care-taker “mother” who didn’t care (or know) a bit about him.   He didn’t trust Marguerite and couldn’t rely on Marina.  So where could he have his check sent?

There is evidence that Harvey briefly attended Antioch College in Ohio. Ruth Paine attended the same school, but earlier.  Both were probably associated with the CIA.   John believes that the story of when Harvey Oswald met Ruth Paine is a lie.  He thinks he knew her probably since the mid-1950s.  John thinks Harvey had his paycheck sent to the Paine residence in Irving.

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23 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There is evidence that Harvey briefly attended Antioch College in Ohio. Ruth Paine attended the same school, but earlier.  Both were probably associated with the CIA.   John believes that the story of when Harvey Oswald met Ruth Paine is a lie.  He thinks he knew her probably since the mid-1950s.  John thinks Harvey had his paycheck sent to the Paine residence in Irving.

So what you are saying is that when Oswald wrote a letter to Leslie Welding, the letter contained the address of Ruth Paine??

It follows that when Ruth Paine received Oswald's pay check in the mail, she knew that Leslie Welding had a written record of her address.

So the Central Intelligence Agency ran the risk that Bargas would not reveal that document before the WC??

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Tony,

It doesn't seem odd to me that Harvey Oswald might write such a letter.  This was more than a year before the assassination, and the evidence seems to show that the plot hadn't even been hatched yet. The actions of this young man weren't put under a microscope until 11/22/63.

What strikes me as entirely possible, though, is that Bargas still had the letter (or some accounting paperwork listing the address), and it was Ruth Paine's address at 2515 W. 5th in Irving. When the FBI/WC discovered this, the dreaded Conspiracy Alarm went off, everything was suppressed, and Bargas's testimony was altered.  This is obviously conjecture, but I'd sure like to see the stenographer’s notes on Bargas's testimony.

Can you name anyone else of interest to researchers who lived in Irving?

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7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tony,

It doesn't seem odd to me that Harvey Oswald might write such a letter.  This was more than a year before the assassination, and the evidence seems to show that the plot hadn't even been hatched yet. The actions of this young man weren't put under a microscope until 11/22/63.

What strikes me as entirely possible, though, is that Bargas still had the letter (or some accounting paperwork listing the address), and it was Ruth Paine's address at 2515 W. 5th in Irving. When the FBI/WC discovered this, the dreaded Conspiracy Alarm went off, everything was suppressed, and Bargas's testimony was altered.  This is obviously conjecture, but I'd sure like to see the stenographer’s notes on Bargas's testimony.

Can you name anyone else of interest to researchers who lived in Irving?

Jim,

That sounds plausible (but obviously, not proven.) 

Can you (or John A.) fill us in with a few more details about a possible "Oswald"/Ruth Paine connection from the 1950's?

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Posted (edited)

It's pretty limited, Paul, but see pp. 166-167 of Harvey and Lee, summarized and excerpted here.  Ruth graduated from Antioch College in 1955.  "On November 29, 1963 Sgt. Donald Swartz, of the Intelligence Unit of the Columbus, Ohio Police De­partment, received information that Oswald attended classes at Antioch College 'for a short period of time.' Sgt. Swartz said, "He was dismissed because he was unable to prove his graduation from high school.50" [H&L, 166]

Antioch College was a mighty small Yankee school for these two southerners to just happen to attend.  Add to it Ruth Paine's study of Russian and her involvement with the Young Friends Movement, through which she may have met Harvey Oswald, and the coincidences begin to sound unreasonable.  From H&L:

 After the assassination FBI Agents John R. Wineberg and William Betts interviewed
people who knew Ruth Paine when she attended summer sessions at the University of
Pennsylvania in 1957. An FBI informant, "PH T-1", advised that Ruth had studied
Russian and was a member of the Young Friends Movement. This group, located in
Philadelphia, was interested in relaxing East-West tensions. The FBI informant said
that it was through the Young Friends Movement that Ruth Paine had first got in con­
tact with Lee Harvey Oswald through pen pal activity. 52

NOTE: Warren Commission attorney Albert Jenner briefly touched on the subject of
''pen pal activity" with Ruth Paine. Jenner said, "And out of this interest and activity
arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America
to see and observe America?" When Ruth answered, "Yes," Jenner said, "I won't go into
that."53 Jenner, and the Warren Commission, refused to explore the possibility that Ruth
Paine's first contact with Harvey Oswald was in the 1950's .

Sgt. Swartz passed the information about Oswald's possible attendance at
Antioch College to FBI Agent Robert F. Mahler. If Lee Harvey Oswald was in Yellow
Springs, Ohio for a few weeks in the fall of 1957, he soon left and moved to New
Orleans.

Harvey's pattern of briefly attending schools without evidence of prior coursework at other schools is quite familiar by now.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It's pretty limited, Paul, but see pp. 166-167 of Harvey and Lee, summarized and excerpted here.  Ruth graduated from Antioch College in 1955.  "On November 29, 1963 Sgt. Donald Swartz, of the Intelligence Unit of the Columbus, Ohio Police De­partment, received information that Oswald attended classes at Antioch College 'for a short period of time.' Sgt. Swartz said, "He was dismissed because he was unable to prove his graduation from high school.50" [H&L, 166]

Antioch College was a mighty small Yankee school for these two southerners to just happen to attend.  Add to it Ruth Paine's study of Russian and her involvement with the Young Friends Movement, through which she may have met Harvey Oswald, and the coincidences begin to sound unreasonable.  From H&L:

 After the assassination FBI Agents John R. Wineberg and William Betts interviewed
people who knew Ruth Paine when she attended summer sessions at the University of
Pennsylvania in 1957. An FBI informant, "PH T-1", advised that Ruth had studied
Russian and was a member of the Young Friends Movement. This group, located in
Philadelphia, was interested in relaxing East-West tensions. The FBI informant said
that it was through the Young Friends Movement that Ruth Paine had first got in con­
tact with Lee Harvey Oswald through pen pal activity. 52

NOTE: Warren Commission attorney Albert Jenner briefly touched on the subject of
''pen pal activity" with Ruth Paine. Jenner said, "And out of this interest and activity
arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America
to see and observe America?" When Ruth answered, "Yes," Jenner said, "I won't go into
that."53 Jenner, and the Warren Commission, refused to explore the possibility that Ruth
Paine's first contact with Harvey Oswald was in the 1950's .

Sgt. Swartz passed the information about Oswald's possible attendance at
Antioch College to FBI Agent Robert F. Mahler. If Lee Harvey Oswald was in Yellow
Springs, Ohio for a few weeks in the fall of 1957, he soon left and moved to New
Orleans.

Harvey's pattern of briefly attending schools without evidence of prior coursework at other schools is quite familiar by now.

Thanks, Jim. I'd forgotten that passage from "Harvey & Lee". So if ol' Ruth was hoping for some genuine contact with "Russian" students, imagine her disappointment when she discovered her pen pal was (supposedly) from New Orleans!

I don't believe our "Oswald" was born in New Orleans. But I am not sure he was an ethnic Russian, either. 

Anyway, this is the kind of thing I was looking for: evidence (not beyond a reasonable doubt, but not terrible either) that "Oswald" and Ruth Paine may have been acquainted or at least in touch before the party in 1963. 

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