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Pat Speer

First radio report on Tippit's shooting?

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2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Game over.  Make all the excuses you can conjure:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/Lee Harvey Oswald's Revolver

Revolver+Owned+By+Lee+Harvey+Oswald.jpg

Dave,

Not even the Warren Commission could link any bullets from that gun to Tippit's body. What they tried to link were the shells (cartridge cases) that were allegedly found at the scene with the above gun, but the problems with the cartridges are infamous: the bullets recovered from Tippit's body don't exactly match the shells. 

Some of the tested shells do match the above gun, but nobody can say for sure that the tested shells were, in fact, the same ones recovered at the Tippit scene. Not even the officers who marked the shells can say for sure. We just don't know, and the possibility of a later switch is real.

Firm conclusions (based solely on the ballistics evidence) are impossible here, thanks to the apparent "mis-handling" of the evidence.

You know this.

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Firm conclusions (based solely on the ballistics evidence) are impossible here, thanks to the apparent "mis-handling" of the evidence.

You know this.

I know nothing of the kind. The two "Davis" bullet shells have a perfect, unbroken, 1-man chain of possession (Doughty & Dhority).

Each officer marked the shell they got from the Davis girls.

Check Dale Myers' book for up-close photos showing those markings.

And those 2 shells were fired in Revolver V510210.

CTers have no way out re: those two shells.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

Paul,

Regarding your post on the previous page....

No doubt certain Warren Commission apologists will just call that one of those amazing coordinated typos... you know, the kind of thing that happens all the time... like Magic Bullets, Magic Postal Money Orders, disappearing wallets, etc.

As you probably know, John A. has written extensively on how the FBI altered the Dictabelt time stamps by transferring them tp audio to tape, editing the tape, and then re-cutting new Dictabelts.  Here is a link directly to the altered Dictabelt  discussion:

https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html#Dictabelt

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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Posted (edited)
On 4/19/2019 at 1:57 AM, Tony Krome said:

BTW, Brewer has stated that he thinks it was KLIF he was tuned into that day.

[...]

Brewer said that to ex-detective Ian Griggs back in 1996 when he was interviewed.

David Von Pein said:

OK. Thanks.

I've located the text of that 1996 interview with Johnny Brewer. It can be found here. On the second page of the interview—here—Brewer does, indeed, say that the radio station he was listening to on 11/22/63 could have been KLIF. But he then adds, "but I honestly don't know".

Johnny-Brewer-1996-Interview-Logo.png

____________________________________________________________________________________


Brewer-Interview-02.png
 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)

Just where is this "Dudley Hughes ambulance slip", and why can't anybody find a scan of it?

https://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Reactions_to_Warren_Report/Support_from_center/The_other_witnesses--Nashes.html

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/Mack Gary Cover-up/Item 27.pdf

 The Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home is the central ambulance dispatching point for southern Dallas. It either handles calls directly or calls other funeral homes in the system that cover other areas. Dudley M. Hughes Jr., the dispatcher, took the call from the police. He filled out an ambulance call slip with the code “3-19” (which means emergency shooting) and the address, “501 East 10th Street.” He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, in the space marked “Time Called.”

This is the article that Dale Myers cites. Has anybody seen this thing since 1964?

 

From Gokay Hasan Yusuf's review of Myers' book:

Myers writes that the Dudley Hughes Funeral home, which had dispatched the ambulance which took Tippit's body to Methodist hospital, was informed of the shooting at 1:18 pm by the DPD, and that Dudley M. Hughes Junior, who took the call from the DPD at the funeral home, allegedly filled out an ambulance call slip which was time stamped 1:18 pm (With Malice, Chapter 5). Myers references this call slip to an essay by researchers George and Patricia Nash in The New Leader entitled: The Other Witnesses (John Armstrong Baylor collection, tab entitled: George & Patricia Nash). However, the call slip itself doesn't appear to be amongst the Dallas Municipal archives collection, and taking into account all of the evidence which contradicts the notion that the funeral home received the call at 1:18 pm, this piece of evidence should be considered unreliable. Of course, it is entirely likely that if the ambulance call slip actually exists, the DPD had falsified it in order to bolster the notion that Tippit was shot close to 1:18 pm; and thereby allowing Oswald plenty of time to reach Tenth and Patton in order to shoot Tippit after he allegedly left the rooming house at 1026 North Beckley.

 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/myers-dale-with-malice-part-1

Edited by Micah Mileto

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On 4/20/2019 at 8:46 AM, David Von Pein said:

The 1:18 pm time, of course, probably refers to the time that Bowley's radio call was received - not the actual time Tippit was shot.

Can you clear this up for me? I've probably missed something, but how did the police dispatcher know to state the following;

"Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location"

Specifically, the suspect is "running" and heading "west"

It's at the 1:19 section;

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

Thanks

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Paul:

its worse than that.

There is  no evidence that Oswald ever picked up that handgun.

But even worse:  there is no evidence the FBI ever went to REA to gather the evidence for the transaction, or do witness interviews.

The obvious question for most normal thinkers would be :  Why would the FBI not do that?

Answer: because they knew what the results would be.  No one would be able to ID Oswald.

 

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But this has all been give over at length.

By me in my essay, "The TIppit Case in the New Millennium" and in McBride's  book on the TIppit case, Into the Nightmare.

The ballistics in the Tippit case stink to high heaven. From my essay.

Hill reported that one of the shells at the scene indicated “that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol.” This was shortly after another Dallas cop described the man escaping the scene—who did not match Oswald’s description—as being armed with an automatic. (Garrison, p. 198) Michael Griffith wrote in a review of Dale Myer's book about the Tippit case that, in 1986, Hill admitted he had picked up one of the casings for examination This is important because the shells are marked with ‘.38 AUTO’ at the base. And Hill said he specifically looked on the bottom.

As Garrison went on to explain, an automatic is clip loaded from its handle and its spring action ejects cartridge cases from the spent round. A revolver keeps the cartridge shells in the chamber as the turret rotates to the next round. As several authors have shown, including Garrison, it is hard to believe that experienced policemen could mistake an automatic handgun and ammo for a revolver. (For a telling visual presentation of this key point, see Robert Groden’s book Absolute Proof, p. 298) Especially since the Dallas police used .38 Special ammo and the shells were marked at the bottom. (see again Simpich, “Jerry Hill’s Lies”) This is an important point to recall as we progress through the ballistics evidence, and later, the issue of possession of the weapon.

Of the bullets taken from Tippit’s body, three are Winchester Western manufactured and copper-coated. The last is a lead bullet made by Remington-Peters. As Garrison noted, this seemed to suggest that two men might have fired at Tippit. (Garrison, p. 199) But further, the shells did not match the bullets. Two of the shells were made by Remington and two by Winchester. (Garrison, p. 201) This has led some to think that perhaps there was a shot that missed and a shell that was not recovered. The House Select Committee on Assassination suggested this but labeled it as speculation. (McBride, p. 256)

But the automatic/revolver dispute and the mismatching of the manufacturers and the ammo is only the beginning of the problems with the ballistics evidence. On the day of the shooting, the police made out an inventory of the evidence found at the scene. There was no mention of cartridge cases of any kind. (Garrison, p. 200) Moreover, it is also standard police procedure to send the bullets and shells to the FBI lab the day of the crime to have them identified and matched to the weapon. In the Tippit case, the authorities sent only one bullet to the Bureau. The police said this was the only projectile recovered from the victim’s body. (Joseph McBride, Into the Nightmare, p. 244) The FBI could not match this bullet to the weapon allegedly taken from Oswald later at the Texas Theater. And further, that bullet was described by the FBI as “so badly mutilated that there is not sufficient individual microscopic characteristics present for identification purposes.” (WC 24, p. 263)

There was a complicating factor to this issue. As Henry Hurt explained in Reasonable Doubt, and John Armstrong amplified on in Harvey and Lee, the Smith and Wesson .38 revolver in evidence had been altered by its purchaser George Rose and Company, located in Los Angeles. The company sent 500 of these guns to its gunsmith in Van Nuys, California. Among the modifications made were the re-chambering of the cylinder so the weapon could accommodate a .38 Special cartridge. This altered chamber made for a slight slippage upon firing and thus did not allow the usual markings to be placed on the bullet. (Armstrong, p. 482; Hurt, p. 143)

When they could not get a match on the first bullet, in March of 1964, the Commission sent FBI technician Cortlandt Cunningham to Dallas to find the other bullets. The police said they had misfiled them. But they turned up in the dead files, a point that the Commission tried to paper over. (McBride, p. 254) Predictably, four months later, the same thing happened: the bullets did not match. (Garrison, p. 199)

Thus, the emphasis was now on the shells. It was not until six days after the police sent the first bullet to the FBI that they finally marked the evidence inventory sheet with four shells. These the FBI were able to match to the weapon. The delay in getting the shells on the inventory list and the failure to send all the ammunition exhibits promptly to the FBI has led some to suspect that the police fiddled with the evidence—to the extent that it suggests that the original weapon perhaps really was an automatic. This is not at all a critic’s meandering speculation. Warren Commissioner Hale Boggs himself expressed similar reservations about the delay. Boggs asked Commission counsel Melvin Eisenberg, “What proof do you have though that these are the bullets?” (McBride, p. 258)

But even that is not the end to the problems with the Tippit ballistics. Benavides had found two cartridge cases at the scene. He handed them to Officer J. M . Poe. Hill told Poe to mark the shells with his initials. His marks were not evident when the policeman inspected the exhibits for the Commission. (Hurt, pp. 153-54) Further, when the witnesses who found the other two shells were asked by the FBI to identify them as the ones they originally recovered, they could not. (WC 24, p. 414)

One would think it could not get any worse. But, in the JFK case, it usually does. When McBride interviewed Detective Jim Leavelle in 1992, the crusty old cop tried to put the whole issue of police identification to rest by throwing a giant curveball at it. He now said that neither Poe, nor the man Poe gave the shells to, Sgt. Barnes, ever marked the cartridge cases at all. (McBride, p. 256) Consider the ramifications of this charge. First, Poe is now a xxxx. But by labeling him as such, it attempts to rid the Dallas Police of the substitution of evidence accusation. What it really does, however, as McBride notes—as if it had not been done already—is it makes the whole “chain of custody on the shells highly suspect.” (McBride, p. 256)

 

PS To make it worse, the Davis sisters could not certify the shells they turned over when the FBI visited them later.


 

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Posted (edited)

One last point before I depart, the guy who has been doing some exceptional research on the Tippit case right now is Milo Reech over at Deep Politics.

As far as the crime scene witnesses, he has gone beyond anyone, including McBride.

Take a peek if you want to see what state of the art is.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Can you clear this up for me? I've probably missed something, but how did the police dispatcher know to state the following;

"Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location"

Specifically, the suspect is "running" and heading "west"

It's at the 1:19 section;

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

Thanks

Tony,

 

For myself, I've always been interested in this passage:

1:44 PM

87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)

87. What was the last location anybody had on that suspect out here in Oak Cliff?

Dispatcher

Running north on Patton.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

 

Steve Thomas

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16 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tony,

 

For myself, I've always been interested in this passage:

1:44 PM

87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)

87. What was the last location anybody had on that suspect out here in Oak Cliff?

Dispatcher

Running north on Patton.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

 

Steve Thomas

There was a guy that ran north on Patton according to this;

 

Lane: And then what happened with the man with the gun?
Clemons: He unloaded it and then reloaded it.

Lane: And what did the other man do?
Clemons: The man kept going, straight down the street.

Lane: And then did they go in opposite directions?
Clemons: Yes, they were, they weren’t together, they went this way [indicating opposite] from each other. The one done the shooting went this way, the other went straight down past the street, that way.

Lane: What was the man, the man who did not do the shooting, but the man who went in other direction from the man with the gun, what was he wearing, if you remember?
Clemons: Well, as far as I can remember he had on, looked like light khakis and a white shirt.

Lane: And was he tall or short?
Clemons: He was tall.

Lane: And was he heavy or thin?
Clemons: He was thin.

Lane: But the one who did, the one who had the gun seconds after Tippit was shot, he was short and heavy?
Clemons: Yes, he was short and kinda heavy.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

...how did the police dispatcher know to state the following;

"Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location."

Specifically, the suspect is "running" and heading "west".

I don't see what the mystery is here. Any number of witnesses could have provided the information about the suspect moving (i.e., "running") west on Jefferson Boulevard just after the Tippit shooting. Those witnesses would include Callaway, Patterson, Guinyard, Reynolds, Searcy, Lewis, and Russell.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

I don't see what the mystery is here. Any number of witnesses could have provided the information about the suspect moving (i.e., "running") west on Jefferson Boulevard just after the Tippit shooting. Those witnesses would include Callaway, Patterson, Guinyard, Reynolds, Searcy, Lewis, and Russell.

 

I get the part where witnesses described that, but who told the dispatcher? I'm not seeing it on the transcript.

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

The tall one: Vaganov?

Don't know about the tall guy, but the "short and kinda heavy" fella doesn't sound like the guy George knew;

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT ; "he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual"

 

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