A shot from the South West knoll has a problem

[Chris Bristow]

The theory about the bullet hole in the windshield in Altgens 6 places the shooter at Commerce St and the overpass. A shot from there lines up the hole in the windshield with JFK's neck. I mapped it out and came up with the same results as others have. But now I find that military snipers say even high velocity rounds will deflect downward by an inch or more from the windshield to the target in the (front) seat. This is due to the 45 degree backward angle of the windshield. For a bullet to pass through the location of the Altgens 6 hole then deflect downward 2 inches and hit JFk's neck the shooter would have to be at least  8 feet lower than the junction of the triple overpass and the Commerce St. sidewalk. I don't see how you could get any lower!
   The only solution is to move the shooter closer which allows for the round to hit at a more upward angle and account for the deflection. To maintain the angle and still have cover the only option is the manhole on the South West side of Elm. The manhole is 200 feet from the front of the limo and the hood is about 3 feet high. That means the angle from the manhole would allow you to see JFK's head but I am not keen about a manhole theory. Anyone have an insight?
  

[Adam Johnson]

The other problem A shot from the South West knoll has 

is it never happened.

[Joseph McBride]

Penn Jones once told me to get into the manhole to check out the theory. I took a photo from that

angle. It was theoretically possible, but the window of opportunity was so short and uncertain

it seemed unlikely. The storm drain at the end of the picket fence where it adjoins the

railroad overcrossing, on the other hand, looked like a much easier and more certain

shooting location for a trained sniper.

 

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

The other problem A shot from the South West knoll has 

is it never happened.

I would say it is very unlikely that a shot came from that position mostly because there was no cover, but that is just an opinion. The deflection of the bullet may prove it was impossible.

[Ron Bulman]

For professionals, maybe a military quality expert sniper, there is cover for one and possibly a spotter/radio man.  And egress over the tracks and down the hill to a car.  With a scoped 22 possibly silenced (the firecracker sound reported by some) hollow point, which wouldn't exit, the throat shot is possible.  From beside the last concrete pillar on the south side of the overpass.  Been there, crouched down.  You can't see/be seen from the part of the Railroad Overpass over Elm where Holland and others were.  Would not have been a problem for example Chris Kyle.

[Chris Bristow]

46 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

Penn Jones once told me to get into the manhole to check out the theory. I took a photo from that

angle. It was theoretically possible, but the window of opportunity was so short and uncertain

it seemed unlikely. The storm drain at the end of the picket fence where it adjoins the

railroad overcrossing, on the other hand, looked like a much easier and more certain

shooting location for a trained sniper.

 

I never considered that location for the throat shot. It is an almost level shot from 300 feet, and it does not have to pass through the windshield. But the bullet would cross the sidewalk at around 4 feet high.

[Chris Bristow]

16 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

For professionals, maybe a military quality expert sniper, there is cover for one and possibly a spotter/radio man.  And egress over the tracks and down the hill to a car.  With a scoped 22 possibly silenced (the firecracker sound reported by some) hollow point, which wouldn't exit, the throat shot is possible.  From beside the last concrete pillar on the south side of the overpass.  Been there, crouched down.  You can't see/be seen from the part of the Railroad Overpass over Elm where Holland and others were.  Would not have been a problem for example Chris Kyle.

Ron, do you mean on top of the triple? To correct for deflection you have to move to a lower location than the sidewalk on Commerce under the triple. The bullet has to take more of an upward angle through the windshield hole in altgens 6 to correct for deflection. But how do you get lower than that sidewalk?

[John Butler]

Chris,

To connect the windshield/throat shot to one from the front one has to have a location on where the presidential limousine was located when the first shot occurred.  Change that location and you have a different angle and perhaps a different direction.

Isn't that your problem?  I don't think anyone agrees on where the first shot occurred.  Most folks use the "x marks the spot" in Dealey Plaza provided, I think, by Robert Groden based on the Zapruder film.

MY view of the Zapruder film is completely different than his.  There are over 50 witnesses who have said shooting occurred in the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  That is certainly enough witnesses to raise reasonable doubt on what happened and where the first shot occurred.

Other than that most folks can't agree on what spot or frame in the Z film where that happened.  How can you compute angles without knowing exactly where the presidential limousine was located?

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Chris,

I have been a shooter since i was 9, over 40 years now....i never joined the military but i have shot at many targets and many moving animals. I have visited Dealey Plaza twice, once in 1997 and again in 2000. I spent a whole day moving around the plaza, the knoll and picket fence area, the overpass and underpass.. I went across to the south knoll then back up to the overpass from the south side.

After walking around for 4 or 5 hours i had made one conclusion BUT guess what building i really wanted to get into so i could check firing angles??? (At this stage i had'nt been into any buildings). The Daltex.

I tried sweet talking my way into an office area that would of had windows along elm street closest to the corner of Huston but was stopped at reception and pretty much told to go away. I think it was a real estate agent or building company from faded memory. 

We have a group of regular friends and family who go shooting together 5 or 6 times a year.  When anyone new to our group that had any military or genuine shooting credentials came along with us, i would take the opportunity to show that person video footage and photo's of Dealey Plaza and the Zapruder film. One guy was even an Olympic shooter for Australia when he was younger.

The overwhelming thoughts of them all, is that the fatal head shot was fired from between 20 and 40 degrees to JFK's right hand side at the moment of impact....BUT here is the one that interests me the most, and i believe it could be provable today......the first shot that hits the President in the back at Z220-Z223 was fired from a building behind him and from a firing position that was between 25 to 40 feet high. The sixth floor window of the TSBD is over 60 feet high.

So from my visits and my shooting history and that of many many others i have at times pestered with the assassination, i hope i have made some educated conclusions...

1. There was NOT a shot from the front thru the windshield that struck JFK in the throat and then the round vaporized itself disappearing forever.

2. The position i believe most likely that the fatal head shot came from was behind the fence at the north knoll/drain +underpass area but in the first panel of fencing to the east from the storm drain's position.  

3. The first round that struck JFK in the back was fired from the rear and from an elevation of less then 41 feet. 

For many years i believed that round just punched its way straight thru his body and out the throat...........I DONT believe that is what happened anymore.....I believe that round somehow  fragmented (after getting thru the strap muscles of JFKs back and perhaps clipping a rib) and one piece of the copper jacket went downwards into JFK's body leaving a track but the autopsy pathologists stopped following the track once it got past or behind the stomach/intestines, it never exited the body.....and the second piece of the copper jacket struck the top of the right lung without breaking thru the pleura and never exited the body.

The lead core of the bullet approx. 6mm in diameter exited the throat nicking the trachea, puncturing the skin (which was held firm by the collar and tie knot), then continued thru the shirt and tie, zipped past Gov Connally's left ear, crashing into the inside of the windshield bouncing back upwards striking the back of the rear vision mirror leaving a dent then falling to the floor of the limo. 

I will post a few photos to show you where i mean.....soon.

Adam.

[Adam Johnson]

Two images from the second floor windows of the Daltex building, one image from behind the picket fence at the storm drain, one image from in front of the fence at the storm drain.

[Adam Johnson]

First striking shots possible trajectory thru the limo at Z220 to Z223,  And here are 6.5mm copper jacket bullet fragments found in the limo. Lead and Copper jacket separated

Edited May 12, 2019 by Adam Johnson

[John Butler]

"The first round that struck JFK in the back was fired from the rear and from an elevation of less then 41 feet. 

Poor old John Connally has to be moved out of the way of the back shot in order to hit the windshield with a fragment.  Or, vice versa.  What about his wounds and their placement?   Or, did I just imagine all that business about the "magic bullet" of Specter?  Did that back / throat shot miss Connally?  Or, did a fragment fly upward from Connally's arm or leg to hit the framework for the windshield causing that nice round dent that doesn't conform to a fragment hit?  Is a second shot needed.  Oh, that would make four!

[Adam Johnson]

Hey John,

Have a look at the Z film and when the limo appears from behind the Stemmons freeway sign please tell me if you think John Connally is sitting upright in his chair facing straight ahead.....i believe the above positioning of his body at that Z220 to Z225/Z226 is the most accurate  shown anywhere in 50 years. His upper body and head are practically turned and facing straight at Mr. Zapruder.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Adam Johnson

[Ron Ecker]

This is not with regard to the neck wound, but I believe it was former poster Al Carrier who made a good case that a shot from the South Knoll could just clear the top of the windshield and inflict the fatal head wound.

 

 

 

 

[Chris Bristow]

8 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

To connect the windshield/throat shot to one from the front one has to have a location on where the presidential limousine was located when the first shot occurred.  Change that location and you have a different angle and perhaps a different direction.

 

Yes if it happened earlier the shot gets moved to the middle of Commerce or maybe the divider between Main and Commerce(Very rough guess). Maybe it raises the shot enough to come from the top of the triple.
The Z film could be faked but the witness accounts put the reaction to the neck/back shot around Z209 to 215. so that is what I am testing.