A shot from the South West knoll has a problem

[Darrell Curtis]

18 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Penn Jones once told me to get into the manhole to check out the theory. I took a photo from that

angle. It was theoretically possible, but the window of opportunity was so short and uncertain

it seemed unlikely. The storm drain at the end of the picket fence where it adjoins the

railroad overcrossing, on the other hand, looked like a much easier and more certain

shooting location for a trained sniper.

 

Curiously, it has been filled in with cement. I'm reluctant to make too much of that, but it's the only one like that in the area that is filled in.

[Chris Bristow]

On 5/12/2019 at 6:41 AM, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Chris,

I have been a shooter since i was 9, over 40 years now....i never joined the military but i have shot at many targets and many moving animals. I have visited Dealey Plaza twice, once in 1997 and again in 2000. I spent a whole day moving around the plaza, the knoll and picket fence area, the overpass and underpass.. I went across to the south knoll then back up to the overpass from the south side.

Lots of good information there, thanks. The Dal Tex photo is  a view I have never seen. I agree that the head shot scenarios have merit.
There are definitely some problems with the windshield anomaly being a bullet hole. It would have to pass very close to Connally and maybe pelt him with glass. Not to mention the shock wave inches from his ear that he never mentioned or the lack of an exit wound.
 On the other hand I can't explain multiple witnesses who saw a "Through and and through" bullet hole as they stood right in front of the limo. As you may know Dr Glanges stood right in front of the limo and saw the hole. She was a women who shot rifles since she was very young. She reloaded ammo with her father all his life and she knew the difference between high and low velocity impacts. Then George Whitaker, a manger at the Ford factory in Michigan said the limo arrived Monday for a new windshield. He recounts a bullet hole below.
""After knocking on the locked door (which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape — and to then get the new windshield back to the  building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon (quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): “And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through…it was a good, clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front.""
  It is hard to write off those consistent statements. I have recently considered that maybe there was a windshield shot that missed. If that was the case I could place the shooter in a different location. The parking lot in the South corner next to the RR tracks is a great place for a sniper because the shot would be almost level and the limo would be heading toward the shooter(Or the closest it would come to driving straight towards the shooter). The Sun is at the shooters back and he could shoot from the back of an enclosed truck that has backed into a parking space. That gives perfect cover and maybe some room for the gunsmoke to be contained inside the truck if the shooter stood back from the rear end. That also means a very quick exit as the truck could just drive straight away. That shot would could hit low and left and miss JFK.
 Here is another bit I find compelling. Look at the bullet holes on the right. You see a heart shape or maybe Mickey Mouse ears shaped hole in black. The middle image of the Altgens 6 hole has the same feature. It's size is also similar. notice the image on the left has that angled crack that seems to happen when you hit an angled windshield from the right. Altgens 6 shares that feature too.. I finally found a good image of Altgens 7 and the same angled line is present in the same place as Altgens 6.
 So I don't know what went on. There are interesting pros and cons but nothing that convinces me, yet.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Chris Bristow

[Chris Bristow]

5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

This is not with regard to the neck wound, but I believe it was former poster Al Carrier who made a good case that a shot from the South Knoll could just clear the top of the windshield and inflict the fatal head wound.

 

 

 

 

Interesting idea. I found that a fragment from the head shot could have gone under the cross bar and over the windshield. His head at 313 was at about the height of his neck at 209 so it seems like it could work.

[Chris Davidson]

22 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The theory about the bullet hole in the windshield in Altgens 6 places the shooter at Commerce St and the overpass. A shot from there lines up the hole in the windshield with JFK's neck. I mapped it out and came up with the same results as others have. But now I find that military snipers say even high velocity rounds will deflect downward by an inch or more from the windshield to the target in the (front) seat. This is due to the 45 degree backward angle of the windshield. For a bullet to pass through the location of the Altgens 6 hole then deflect downward 2 inches and hit JFk's neck the shooter would have to be at least  8 feet lower than the junction of the triple overpass and the Commerce St. sidewalk. I don't see how you could get any lower!
   The only solution is to move the shooter closer which allows for the round to hit at a more upward angle and account for the deflection. To maintain the angle and still have cover the only option is the manhole on the South West side of Elm. The manhole is 200 feet from the front of the limo and the hood is about 3 feet high. That means the angle from the manhole would allow you to see JFK's head but I am not keen about a manhole theory. Anyone have an insight?
  

Is Dealy Plaza symmetrical?

If so, are the parking lots on both the North/South knolls at the same elevation?

The 1st shot determined was elevation 423.07 (approx z217-218), that, plus a windshield height hole at approx 42.5 inches above the pavement equals an elevation of 423.07 + 3.54ft = 426.61ft.

Drommer plat shows the elev at the picket fence corner of 96.5 while the elev at the sidewalk under the 6th floor snipers window is elev 100.4.

That difference = 3.9ft

Converted back to West's measurements, that would be elev 430.2 - 100.4 = 329.8 + 96.5 = elev 426.3.

Or, 430.2 - 3.9ft = 426.3

I assume the ground was level(symmetry) from the east to the west end of the picket fence.

 

 

[Chris Bristow]

26 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Is Dealy Plaza symmetrical?

If so, are the parking lots on both the North/South knolls at the same elevation?

The 1st shot determined was elevation 423.07 (approx z217-218), that, plus a windshield height hole at approx 42.5 inches above the pavement equals an elevation of 423.07 + 3.54ft = 426.61ft.

Drommer plat shows the elev at the picket fence corner of 96.5 while the elev at the sidewalk under the 6th floor snipers window is elev 100.4.

That difference = 3.9ft

Converted back to West's measurements, that would be elev 430.2 - 100.4 = 329.8 + 96.5 = elev 426.3.

Or, 430.2 - 3.9ft = 426.3

I assume the ground was level(symmetry) from the east to the west end of the picket fence.

 

 

By first shot do you mean the throat shot or the possible missed shot closer to Houston? I am talking about the throat shot around Z210. Google Earth shows an elevation of 415 ft at the 1st x in the road and 414ft in the South parking lot.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chris Bristow

[Chris Davidson]

1st shot/back shot was referred to as behind the Stemmons sign when viewing from Z's footage.

CE884 shows the elevations with a 3.27ft height adjustment for the back wound location above the pavement.

Subtract 3.27ft from the elevations listed in CE884 and you have the true street elevations at those frame numbers.

So between Z frames 210-222,  elev 423.53 (426.8 - 3.27) and 422.84 (426.11 - 3.27) = elev 423.07.

 

[Ron Bulman]

22 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Penn Jones once told me to get into the manhole to check out the theory. I took a photo from that

angle. It was theoretically possible, but the window of opportunity was so short and uncertain

it seemed unlikely. The storm drain at the end of the picket fence where it adjoins the

railroad overcrossing, on the other hand, looked like a much easier and more certain

shooting location for a trained sniper.

 

Further up the fence makes more sense to me for the back portion of back and to the left.  More especially if you consider the Horne and Chesser(sp?) possibility of simultaneous head shots with one in the forehead hairline.

[Chris Bristow]

3 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

1st shot/back shot was referred to as behind the Stemmons sign when viewing from Z's footage.

CE884 shows the elevations with a 3.27ft height adjustment for the back wound location above the pavement.

Subtract 3.27ft from the elevations listed in CE884 and you have the true street elevations at those frame numbers.

So between Z frames 210-222,  elev 423.53 (426.8 - 3.27) and 422.84 (426.11 - 3.27) = elev 423.07.

 

I think you are right, CE844 may be correct and Google Earth has a problem. Your numbers match the West Breneman map at Z210. At Z313 the WB map is 418 and CE844 shows 421, so they diverge a bit, while Google Earth is about 10 feet off in many places. I don't know why that is but none of those maps are fully consistent with CE844.
The WB map shows the manhole by the West end of the picket fence is 1 foot higher than than street level at Z210. That appears correct and If that is true then the South parking lot is at about the same elevation as Z210 because that manhole, the overpass, and the parking lot in the South corner are all within one foot elevation of each other according to Google Earth.  CE844 does not give the elevation for any of those points so I don't have one map that shows Z210 and the parking lot. It looks like it still is close to a level shot.

[Chris Davidson]

47 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

I think you are right, CE844 may be correct and Google Earth has a problem. Your numbers match the West Breneman map at Z210. At Z313 the WB map is 418 and CE844 shows 421, so they diverge a bit, while Google Earth is about 10 feet off in many places. I don't know why that is but none of those maps are fully consistent with CE844.
The WB map shows the manhole by the West end of the picket fence is 1 foot higher than than street level at Z210. That appears correct and If that is true then the South parking lot is at about the same elevation as Z210 because that manhole, the overpass, and the parking lot in the South corner are all within one foot elevation of each other according to Google Earth.  CE844 does not give the elevation for any of those points so I don't have one map that shows Z210 and the parking lot. It looks like it still is close to a level shot.

Yes, that's the important part.

My original elev was 426, not 426.3, so adjusting for that from previous work, at 400ft away from the top of the South knoll a shooting angle of .157° at approx 1.1ft above the ground will do.

A sniper lying down perhaps.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22692-swan-song-math-rules/?do=findComment&comment=392034

P.S. There is more to the above link if you want to scroll (backward/forward) from it.

[John Butler]

What a bizarre Z frame!

Z 223 crop from John Costella's z frames:

I don't see any of the bizarre things in the Z frame above this one in this crop of Z 223.  The only thing I see as unusual is Jackie Kennedy is larger or appears larger than John Connally.  She has broader shoulders.

**

I had a lady tell me once in a genealogy discussion of ancestry that location- location- location was the answer to what we were discussing.  Once I checked the location she was wrong in general and in detail.

If someone wants to use the Z film for the location of the presidential vehicle when the first shot occurred needs to work out alternative scenarios because as soon as you settle on say Z frame 222 as the moment of the first shot you will have others saying No! No!

I personally think the Zapruder Gap footage has been transferred further down Elm Street so that a shooter can be placed in the 6th floor sniper's nest whether the Kabuki drama of a man with a gun was enacted.  You can't prove that anyone fired a shot from there beyond a reasonable doubt.  Nor can you prove that the first shot occurred at any particular Z frame beyond a reasonable doubt.  You can't even prove how many times President Kennedy was shot in the head beyond a reasonable doubt.  In another thread I listed at least a half a dozen shots to the head that has been claimed from time to time as a skeptical listing.

The Zapruder film may be almost technically perfect as John Costella claims but, it has so many content problems that once these are listed and shown it becomes very difficult to not consider it a built from the ground up fake.  Costella said that he thought is was built from the ground up and I didn't understand that for the longest time.  The content problems in the film back up what he said.

So I don't know what guys like Chris and Chris do to get some accuracy or pin point accuracy in their work.  There are always skeptics.

Edited May 13, 2019 by John Butler

[Adam Johnson]

Here is another couple of factors to consider for a frontal shot thru the windscreen NOT happening....

Greer and Kellermen's reactions from Z220 to Z240.......

Greers head/face/eyeballs were 18" or probably less from the spot a bullet is supposed to have punctured its way thru the windshield, Kellermens maybe  30" to 36" away .......Have you ever been driving a car or sitting in the front seat when a stone/rock flies up and hits the windshield??? Its pretty hard not to miss the sound and crack on the windshield........Kellermen and Greer never react to a thru and thru shot....NEVER.....Anyone here honestly believe if those two agents saw a bullet come thru the window only a foot or two from there heads they would not have assumed they were under attack and accelerated and zig zag the F@#k out of there. Stuff happening from behind them is confusing....a bullet thru the glass a foot from your eyes....NOT VERY CONFUSING

Two police officers and 8 to 12 people were standing on the overpass above elm street.....Do you honestly think I could stand on the overpass above commerce street and fire a rifle at the limo coming down Elm....and no one would see me standing 30 to 40 feet away.  It is a straight line of sight behind the overpass wall....no where to hide   from one end to the other....clear straight line. SO NO NOBODY ever stood above commerce street on the overpass and fired a miracle shot just over the windshield,  just under the partition chrome, just past Connally into JFK's throat and then had the round vanish from existence.

Chris above you speak of how rounds thru slanted windshields are pulled downward from there point of entry....100% correct ..........do you know who the only person ever seen in the plaza at the time of the shooting that day who was in a possible position to maybe...maybe(a 100 million to one) to make a shoot thru the the windshield that would be pulled downward and maybe hit the president.....JAMES TAGUE...................but guess what he was captured on film and photos....and never had a rifle. 

OH and one more thing

A shot thru the windshield from front to back striking the president in the throat  NEVER HAPPENED

 

PS.  how did they fake the white house garage photos taken of the limo by SS and FBI within the first 18 hours of arriving back in Washington DC.....How did they get false testimony from white house garage staff, Secret Service agents and FBI agents during that first 18 to 24 hours in the White House Garage.  Windshield damage YES  thru and thru front to back,

NO NEVER HAPPENED      

After that first 24 hours..............anything could of happened to that strike.....so the ford guys could have been presented with a hole....but none of them saw that limo inside the first 18-24 hours at the white house garage, so their evidence is moot. 

[Adam Johnson]

53 minutes ago, John Butler said:

The Zapruder film may be almost technically perfect as John Costella claims

The frame above 223 i got from John Costella.............small world

[John Butler]

Adam,

That is really interesting.  It looks like someone has "monkeyed" with your version.

There are things that look like a hooting baboon, skull, and John Connally in sections.  With magnification it looks less like anthropomorphic figures.  But it still looks edited by someone.

[Chris Davidson]

13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I think you are right, CE844 may be correct and Google Earth has a problem. Your numbers match the West Breneman map at Z210. At Z313 the WB map is 418 and CE844 shows 421, so they diverge a bit, while Google Earth is about 10 feet off in many places. I don't know why that is but none of those maps are fully consistent with CE844.
The WB map shows the manhole by the West end of the picket fence is 1 foot higher than than street level at Z210. That appears correct and If that is true then the South parking lot is at about the same elevation as Z210 because that manhole, the overpass, and the parking lot in the South corner are all within one foot elevation of each other according to Google Earth.  CE844 does not give the elevation for any of those points so I don't have one map that shows Z210 and the parking lot. It looks like it still is close to a level shot.

Chris,

If you want to dig deeper into this, I suggest this site:

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/08-2south-knoll/

After reading it, if so inclined, you can add my info to it and draw your own conclusion.

P.S. I am not Ant Davidson mentioned in the link above.

[Evan Marshall]

I was the original training sgt for the SWAT Team in Detroit and we found that amour piercing rounds did not deflect near as much and frankly rounds thru windshields did all sorts of unpredictable things.

As a training specialist for the National Nuclear Security Administration's office of secure transportation we had access to all sorts of classified rounds but most were a refinement of earlier efforts and AP rounds existed before 1963.