John Butler Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) There is a huge problem is Davidson's assumption that Betzner answers the Bronson Gap problem. There are only 10 people visible in the Mannequin Row area which has 19 in Zapruder. If you say that people are missing then you are saying that the Betzner photo is a fake. That it has photo edited. You also have the same problem with Willis. It has 10 people also visible. There are 19 people visible in that area in Zapruder. Edited June 4, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Davidson, "Start with this path first. He's 200ft away. 200ft/17.84 sec = 7.62mph I would think that the latter part of Bronson would show him running towards the steps, but I don't see anyone over there. The only person we see down this corridor is bald spot man in other films." I used a very similar idea years ago to indicate Phil couldn't have run that fast to get to the SW corner in order to film Kennedy. 200 feet is also the estimate I used. I'll see if I can find that somewhere in all the files I have on the assassination. Might take a while. If he ran at 7.62 mph and the limousine was moving at 11 mph (most everyone's estimate) and the limousine had at least a 60 + feet head start who got there first? Some witnesses estimated the speed of the limo could have been as high as 20-40 mph. Another problem I have is this statement. What corner is Phil talking about and what corner are you talking about in your post. Apparently, the only corner he is talking about is the SW corner of Elm and Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 33 minutes ago, Robin Unger said: Nice work Chris. When you did the small Bronson GIF, it showed Marylin Willis's parents standing next to the white column. Is that Phil Willis standing in front of Linda Willis ? Robin, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Gerda Dunckel Bell GIF ( men running ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 33 minutes ago, Robin Unger said: Nice work Chris. When you did the small Bronson GIF, it showed Marylin Willis's parents standing next to the white column. Is that Phil Willis standing in front of Linda Willis ? Robin, That depends on whether the Bronson photo you showed, with Phil's wife commenting that those were her parents, is true. If that is the case, the person I have red boxed in the small Bronson gif is Marilyn's father, not Phil. The only picture I have is from Life Magazine 1967. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Even with Dunkel's good Bell gif their is not enough there to declare that is Phil Willis or anyone else. The man running not the black cutout isn't bald enough to be Phil Willis. What is see as a bald spot is light colored objects on Elm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 I don't want to get accused of having an over heated imagination. So, I am not going to say watch the fellow indicated by the red arrow in a run of the Dunkel gif. He looks very spastic as if he is desperately trying to do something as the limo approaches. He looks like he is beating a drum. Or, is he taking photos and winding in the next frame? The image is so blurred you can't say who it is even though you have thoughts on who that might be. You really can't say this image matches Prayer Man in the Martin film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Robin Unger said: Gerda Dunckel Bell GIF ( men running ) Outstanding Robin/Gerda. I didn't have the early Bell frames. Chronologically Bell will occur a little before Martin. #1 would be the prime candidate for Willis. imo #2 bald spot man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) In response to the post above. No. 1 can't be seen in order to distinguish who that might be. It is like the two men in suits as Allman and Ford, any guy with a bald spot could be Willis. If it is Willis he is to late the presidential limousine is passing or about to. Martin and Bell filmed at the same time, the same scenes. No. 2 the bald headed guy is not bald. You are seeing the arms of the man across the street on Elm. The one who looks like he is beating a drum. Look at the frame from your gif I posted. What is more disconcerting is the black cut out man. Some features of that person should be shown, but are not. Could it be the editors didn't have time or energy to put in someone if details to be seen there. Really, 4 and 3 from Martin is really shameless. Post the rest of the frame! You will see the presidential limousine is passing. Study that 4 or 5 seconds or about 70 frames in Martin and you will see that. Besides, Linda and Rosemary, according to Elsie Dorman were already there on the SW corner before this Martin scene. Phil is not in Elsie Dorman. Even in Zapruder we see Linda and Rosemary running around the corner almost the same as it is shown in Dorman. OBTW, Prayer Man is taking photos of the presidential party. Edited June 5, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 Chris Barstow you sure stirred up Butler. Over 1/3, 50 of 143 posts on this thread. Pretty much all useless blather, a term he's used. Though Chris and Robin have posted valiant rebuttals he's filled a lot of space with drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said: Chris Barstow you sure stirred up Butler. Over 1/3, 50 of 143 posts on this thread. Pretty much all useless blather, a term he's used. Though Chris and Robin have posted valiant rebuttals he's filled a lot of space with drivel. More "horse carp" from Bulman. At least Unger and Davidson are using data to try and refute what I am saying. Bristow really hasn't stayed in the argument. They are not making personal attacks as you are. And, this comes from a fellow that consistently makes dumber than a rock statements. Remember your recent comment, your Q statement to DiEugenio as an example. Edited June 5, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Chris Barstow you sure stirred up Butler. Over 1/3, 50 of 143 posts on this thread. Pretty much all useless blather, a term he's used. Though Chris and Robin have posted valiant rebuttals he's filled a lot of space with drivel. Stirred and shaken I guess. # 51. Regarding the rocks statement, I do know a geologist if you'd like am official interpretation. Since we're well off Chris's original topic, thanks 2 u. Edited June 5, 2019 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 11 hours ago, John Butler said: Davidson, "Start with this path first. He's 200ft away. 200ft/17.84 sec = 7.62mph I would think that the latter part of Bronson would show him running towards the steps, but I don't see anyone over there. The only person we see down this corridor is bald spot man in other films." If he ran at 7.62 mph and the limousine was moving at 11 mph (most everyone's estimate) and the limousine had at least a 60 + feet head start who got there first? Some witnesses estimated the speed of the limo could have been as high as 20-40 mph. I'm quite sure the limo wasn't traveling 20-40 mph around the Elm St turn. This is what happens when you base your speed conclusions on "(most everyone's estimate)". Eventually, someone will create a graphic that is more reflective of the true speed traveled for the span we are talking about. Although there are other deceptions(distance traveled/frame rate) created by this graphic, the overall speed is within 1/2mph of what it should be. I suggest you add up the speeds within the graphic and come up with the average, then combine that with a 9.3mph average for Houston St. Once you have that, you can then compare running speeds/distances vs limo speeds/distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) Davidson, "Although there are other deceptions(distance traveled/frame rate) created by this graphic, the overall speed is within 1/2mph of what it should be." Why publish this information if it has a deceptive quality. How deceptive is the speed on Houston (9.3 mph) and the speed in the turn onto Elm (6.8mph)? Be sure to include the time of the Zapruder Gap in your calculations. I have estimated 21 or 22 seconds for the Gap. David Josephs did 14 seconds which is reasonable. In Zapruder Willis turns up after frame 133. Some people say he is in Dorman. I can't find him there. Your presentation of Phil and Linda running down the walk to the SW corner defeats your whole argument. If you show the whole frame or do one of questionable gifs based on data from 4 or 5 seconds or 70 frames of the Martin film you will see the limo is there when your version of Phil Willis is on the walkway. You will see the limousine is already on Elm past the TSBD doorway approaching the SW corner of the TSBD when you have Phil and Linda still running for the SW corner on the walkway. Dorman shows both Linda and Rosemary arriving long before that. How in the world can you time the limousine in the Towner Cartoon? The films is a fake. Way to many frames have splices and there are missing frames. Someone once said you see one frame per second. I didn't notice that and didn't see that. It shows Dallas Policeman on the steps of the TSBD as the limo passes the TSBD doorway. If I my memory serves it takes the Advance Motorcycle Policemen in the first 132 frames of Zapruder about 7.3 seconds (based on dividing the frames by 18 and timing it with a watch- 7.2 if you divide by 18.3) to travel down Elm before he vanishes. Can't remember whether that was Glen McBride or not. McBride had time to stop and let Mary Moorman take a Polaroid. I think it was Weigman who said the caravan was traveling at about 20-40 mph. I'm not sure about Weigman, but do believe it was one of the Camera Car guys. I believe Weigman said he couldn't leave the vehicle until it stopped indicating it was traveling relatively fast. Your graphic is about the speed of the limo as it makes it turn into Elm Street. But, Greer didn't slow down that much. Hence, his wild turn onto Elm Street. What was the Limo's speed on Houston Street? That is the key idea for timing Phil's run not the speed of the turn onto Elm Street. Edited June 5, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Stirred and shaken I guess. # 51. Regarding the rocks statement, I do know a geologist if you'd like am official interpretation. Since we're well off Chris's original topic, thanks 2 u. Bulman, I so wanted to write Bullman, but Jim DiEugenio took me to task on that kind of behavior. Mitcham says it's childish and for once he is right. Past #51! So what! We are still on topic. The topic is whether or not the Zapruder film is a fake. John Costella used the leaning lamppost as an indicator of the falseness of the Zapruder film. Chris was out to debunk that. I suggested there was better material to debate the falseness of the Zapruder film. Other films/photos either back up or confound the Zapruder film and need to be discussed. That's what we are doing. Do you understand now? Stir and shaken? To many references to adult beverages over the years. Was that your problem when you replied to Jim Eugenio with your Q comment? Edited June 5, 2019 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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