Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties

[Ron Bulman]

Just food for thought.  I have to wonder if Manson would have known that Sharon Tate's dad was Army Intel.  I'd lean toward probably not.  Whitson, If he was involved, could have, who knows?  Second, if say Manson and or Watson possibly cased the place the day/afternoon/evening before they may have thought Tate wasn't there.  According to the book her car was not there, it was in the shop.  I have no idea if she usually parked it in a garage, the drive way or where.  I know "if".  Just thinking, which has gotten me in trouble before.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Just food for thought.  I have to wonder if Manson would have known that Sharon Tate's dad was Army Intel.  I'd lean toward probably not.  Whitson, If he was involved, could have, who knows?

 

From Dave Emory's website:

http://spitfirelist.com/news/new-book-on-manson-killings-and-the-intelligence-community/

 

<quote on, emphasis added>

1.   Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties by Tom O’Neill; Little, Brown and Company [HC]; Copyright 2019 by Tom O’Neill; 978–0‑316–47755‑0; pp.184–187.

. . . . I wanted to see . . . if Manson had any credible connections to the government or law enforcement, and if I could link him to the police infiltrations of leftist groups I’d read about. Then, as if I’d conjured him from thin air, someone emerged who fit into the puzzle. He seemed to have wandered into Southern California from the pages of a spy novel . . . . His name was Reeve Whitson, and his intersections with the Manson investigation suggested a dimension to the Tate-LaBianca murders that had been wiped from the official record.

It started with Shahrokh Hatami, Sharon Tate’s friend and personal photographer. When I spoke with Hatami over the phone in 1999, he’d never given an interview about the murders. Sorting through his memories, he recalled something he’d never been able to explain.

At seven in the morning on August 9, 1969, Hatami got a frantic phone call from a friend. Rubbing sleep from his eyes, he listened as the caller delivered the terrible news: Sharon Tate and four others had been murdered in her home on Cielo Drive. Afterward, in numb terror, he and his girlfriend switched on the radio and listened all morning for further reports. They had to wait a while. As Hatami later learned, that call came ninety minutes before the Polanskis’ maid had arrived at the house, discovered the bodies, and ran screaming to the neighbors, who called the police. Unwittingly, Hatami had become one of the first people in the world to hear about the murders—all because of his friend.

That “friend” was Reeve Whitson, whom Hatami characterized as “a mystery man”—a phrase I’d hear a lot as I researched him in earnest. A close friend of Tate and Polanski, Whitson had a talent for discretion. When people remembered him at all, he was usually on the periphery, coming and going, his purpose unknown, his purpose unknown, his motives inscrutable. . ..

. . . . To get some sense of Whitson’s role in the case, I looked his name up in the trial transcript. It appeared four times, all during Hatami’s testimony. It was Whitson, he confirmed on the stand, who brought him to [Vincent] Bugliosi during the investigation. And yet Whitson never appeared in Helter Skelter, which gave an otherwise detailed account of Hatami’s story.

As well it should. Hatami’s testimony was a dramatic high point. Before the packed courtroom, he explained that five months before the murders, he’d been visiting Sharon Tate when he noticed someone on the property. Hustling toward the front door, he found a short, scraggly Manson standing there. Manson asked if Terry Melcher was around. Hatami wanting, to be rid of him, sent Manson around back. He knew that Rudi Altobelli ligved in the guest-house, and could tell him where to find Melcher.

Hatami’s story proved that Manson knew where the house on Cielo Drive was, and how to get there. And it added some tragic foreshadowing: since Tate, Sebring, Folger, and Frykowski were in the room behind Hatami, this would be the one and only time Manson laid eyes on his future victims.

The problem, Hatami revealed to me, was that he’d never been confident that it was Manson he saw that day. His uncertainty meant nothing to Bugliosi and Reeve Whitson, who coerced his testimony anyway. “The circumstances I was put through to become a witness,” Hatami said, “I didn’t like at all.” Whitson told him “‘Hatami, you saw that guy, Altobelli said so, we need another person to corroborate it.’” . . . .

Hatami demurred, and Whitson turned the screws, effectively threatening him with deportation—he said he’d ensure that Hatami, an Iranian without U.S. citizenship, wouldn’t be able to get another visa. If he wanted to stay in America, all he had to do was say he’s seen Manson that day at Tate’s house. Not long after, Whitson brought Hatami to his car and showed him his gun. Although Hatami didn’t know Whitson too well, he took the threat seriously—he believed that Whitson really had the means to deport him.

“I was framed by Mr. Whitson,” Hatami told me. “I was never sure it happened that way. I had to save my ass.” Bugliosi and I were still speaking then, so I asked him if he knew Whitson at all. Hatami thought that was “rubbish.” “Bugliosi knows him very well, “ he said. “I could not have been a witness without Reeve.”

He was right. Because the defense suspected that Bugliosi and Whitson had, indeed, coerced Hatami’s story, they called on Bugliosi to explain himself at the trial. Under oath, but out of the presence of the jury, Bugliosi tried to answer for the fact that he’s interviewed without a tape recorder or a stenographer. Who was in the room when Hatami talked? “Just Reeve Whitson, myself, and Mr. Hatami,” Bugliosi replied. the judge decided that Hatami couldn’t testify to having seen Manson. The jury heard only that hhe house when a man came to the door, and that he sent the man to the guesthouse.

But of course, Bugliosi had forgotten that he’d supplied Whitson’s name under oath. Whitson wanted it that way. He served his purpose and then disappeared, Hatami said, like “a piece in a chess game.”

If Whitson was a chess piece, who was moving him around? He’d died in 1994, so I couldn’t ask him. Hatami gave me the names of people who might’ve known him Almost invariably they told me the same thing: that Whitson had been an undercover agent of some kind. Some said he was in the FBI, others the Secret Service. The rough consensus, though, was that he was part of the CIA, or an offshoot special-operations group connected to it. </q>

So Whitson was a close friend of the daughter of a fellow intel official and he set her up for slaughter?

No, I don't buy it.

Looks to me like Manson was a male prostitute with a chip on his shoulder and a gift for gab, nothing more.

Quote

 

  Second, if say Manson and or Watson possibly cased the place the day/afternoon/evening before they may have thought Tate wasn't there.  According to the book her car was not there, it was in the shop.  I have no idea if she usually parked it in a garage, the drive way or where.  I know "if".  Just thinking, which has gotten me in trouble before.

Is there any evidence anyone cased the Tate house before the murders?

 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

From Dave Emory's website:

http://spitfirelist.com/news/new-book-on-manson-killings-and-the-intelligence-community/

 

<quote on, emphasis added>

1.   Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties by Tom O’Neill; Little, Brown and Company [HC]; Copyright 2019 by Tom O’Neill; 978–0‑316–47755‑0; pp.184–187.

. . . . I wanted to see . . . if Manson had any credible connections to the government or law enforcement, and if I could link him to the police infiltrations of leftist groups I’d read about. Then, as if I’d conjured him from thin air, someone emerged who fit into the puzzle. He seemed to have wandered into Southern California from the pages of a spy novel . . . . His name was Reeve Whitson, and his intersections with the Manson investigation suggested a dimension to the Tate-LaBianca murders that had been wiped from the official record.

It started with Shahrokh Hatami, Sharon Tate’s friend and personal photographer. When I spoke with Hatami over the phone in 1999, he’d never given an interview about the murders. Sorting through his memories, he recalled something he’d never been able to explain.

At seven in the morning on August 9, 1969, Hatami got a frantic phone call from a friend. Rubbing sleep from his eyes, he listened as the caller delivered the terrible news: Sharon Tate and four others had been murdered in her home on Cielo Drive. Afterward, in numb terror, he and his girlfriend switched on the radio and listened all morning for further reports. They had to wait a while. As Hatami later learned, that call came ninety minutes before the Polanskis’ maid had arrived at the house, discovered the bodies, and ran screaming to the neighbors, who called the police. Unwittingly, Hatami had become one of the first people in the world to hear about the murders—all because of his friend.

That “friend” was Reeve Whitson, whom Hatami characterized as “a mystery man”—a phrase I’d hear a lot as I researched him in earnest. A close friend of Tate and Polanski, Whitson had a talent for discretion. When people remembered him at all, he was usually on the periphery, coming and going, his purpose unknown, his purpose unknown, his motives inscrutable. . ..

. . . . To get some sense of Whitson’s role in the case, I looked his name up in the trial transcript. It appeared four times, all during Hatami’s testimony. It was Whitson, he confirmed on the stand, who brought him to [Vincent] Bugliosi during the investigation. And yet Whitson never appeared in Helter Skelter, which gave an otherwise detailed account of Hatami’s story.

As well it should. Hatami’s testimony was a dramatic high point. Before the packed courtroom, he explained that five months before the murders, he’d been visiting Sharon Tate when he noticed someone on the property. Hustling toward the front door, he found a short, scraggly Manson standing there. Manson asked if Terry Melcher was around. Hatami wanting, to be rid of him, sent Manson around back. He knew that Rudi Altobelli ligved in the guest-house, and could tell him where to find Melcher.

Hatami’s story proved that Manson knew where the house on Cielo Drive was, and how to get there. And it added some tragic foreshadowing: since Tate, Sebring, Folger, and Frykowski were in the room behind Hatami, this would be the one and only time Manson laid eyes on his future victims.

The problem, Hatami revealed to me, was that he’d never been confident that it was Manson he saw that day. His uncertainty meant nothing to Bugliosi and Reeve Whitson, who coerced his testimony anyway. “The circumstances I was put through to become a witness,” Hatami said, “I didn’t like at all.” Whitson told him “‘Hatami, you saw that guy, Altobelli said so, we need another person to corroborate it.’” . . . .

Hatami demurred, and Whitson turned the screws, effectively threatening him with deportation—he said he’d ensure that Hatami, an Iranian without U.S. citizenship, wouldn’t be able to get another visa. If he wanted to stay in America, all he had to do was say he’s seen Manson that day at Tate’s house. Not long after, Whitson brought Hatami to his car and showed him his gun. Although Hatami didn’t know Whitson too well, he took the threat seriously—he believed that Whitson really had the means to deport him.

“I was framed by Mr. Whitson,” Hatami told me. “I was never sure it happened that way. I had to save my ass.” Bugliosi and I were still speaking then, so I asked him if he knew Whitson at all. Hatami thought that was “rubbish.” “Bugliosi knows him very well, “ he said. “I could not have been a witness without Reeve.”

He was right. Because the defense suspected that Bugliosi and Whitson had, indeed, coerced Hatami’s story, they called on Bugliosi to explain himself at the trial. Under oath, but out of the presence of the jury, Bugliosi tried to answer for the fact that he’s interviewed without a tape recorder or a stenographer. Who was in the room when Hatami talked? “Just Reeve Whitson, myself, and Mr. Hatami,” Bugliosi replied. the judge decided that Hatami couldn’t testify to having seen Manson. The jury heard only that hhe house when a man came to the door, and that he sent the man to the guesthouse.

But of course, Bugliosi had forgotten that he’d supplied Whitson’s name under oath. Whitson wanted it that way. He served his purpose and then disappeared, Hatami said, like “a piece in a chess game.”

If Whitson was a chess piece, who was moving him around? He’d died in 1994, so I couldn’t ask him. Hatami gave me the names of people who might’ve known him Almost invariably they told me the same thing: that Whitson had been an undercover agent of some kind. Some said he was in the FBI, others the Secret Service. The rough consensus, though, was that he was part of the CIA, or an offshoot special-operations group connected to it. </q>

So Whitson was a close friend of the daughter of a fellow intel official and he set her up for slaughter?

No, I don't buy it.

Looks to me like Manson was a male prostitute with a chip on his shoulder and a gift for gab, nothing more.

Is there any evidence anyone cased the Tate house before the murders?

 

 

No, Manson was not a male prostitute, far from it.  He had more than a gift for gab.  Nope, no evidence of casing, just a thought regarding a possibility, speculation on my part as stated.  But, your highlighting of Whitson as friend of Tate and Polanski is interesting.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Cliff Varnell]

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

No, Manson was not a male prostitute, far from it.

It wouldn't have been something he'd brag about.  In Manson In His Own Words he refers to visiting un-named friends and re-stocking up on drugs.  Kinda naive to think it didn't involve returning sex favors.

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

  He had more than a gift for gab. 

Like what?  He was a lousy musician, a lousy thief, a lousy pimp.

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Nope, no evidence of casing, just a thought regarding a possibility, speculation on my part as stated.  But, your highlighting of Whitson as friend of Tate and Polanski is interesting.

As soon as folks see the letters "CIA" the imaginations run wild.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It wouldn't have been something he'd brag about.  In Manson In His Own Words he refers to visiting un-named friends and re-stocking up on drugs.  Kinda naive to think it didn't involve returning sex favors.

Like what?  He was a lousy musician, a lousy thief, a lousy pimp.

As soon as folks see the letters "CIA" the imaginations run wild.

He had a harem of girls at this point,  they called him Jesus.  He May have been influenced by MKULTRA in particular at some point.

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

He had a harem of girls at this point, 

Which speaks to his gift of gab, does it not?

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

they called him Jesus. 

Some of them, not all, according to Manson.

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

He May have been influenced by MKULTRA in particular at some point.

As a mind control drug LSD was operationally ineffective.  The impact of LSD differed greatly from person to person depending on the subject's frame of mind immediately before coming on to it.  It wasn't addictive and usually the effect wore off with a good sleep.

According to John Marks' The Search for the Manchurian Candidate (pg 59) the CIA's operational interest peaked by 1956. 

"LSD had an incredibly powerful effect on people, but not in ways the CIA could predict or control." (Marks, pg 78).

We're supposed to believe that by 1969 Manson could tell the CIA something they didn't already know?

[Paul Brancato]

http://w.spitfirelist.com/category/news/

scrolldown to the paragraph update on Chaos. Hard to figure out what Cliff isn’t buying. The comment which one can read by clicking on the link says that the author knows more about Whitson’s Nazi connections than what he chose to put in his book. This American Intelligence agent was possibly part of Skorzeny’s Network. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Paul Brancato

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

http://w.spitfirelist.com/category/news/

scrolldown to the paragraph update on Chaos. Hard to figure out what Cliff isn’t buying. The comment which one can read by clicking on the link says that the author knows more about Whitson’s Nazi connections than what he chose to put in his book. This American Intelligence agent was possibly part of Skorzeny’s Network. 

Apparently I haven't made myself clear enough. 

I don't buy the idea that Reeve Whitson would conspire to murder his friend Sharon Tate, the daughter of a fellow US intelligence official.

I don't buy the idea that either Charles Manson or Tex Watson were intelligence operatives.

I don't buy the idea that because Whitson had connections to the CIA and the Skorzeny network the un-buyable ideas above become more palatable.

I do buy Manson's account of the crimes found in Manson In His Own Words.  I think Nuel Emmons skillfully drew out of Manson an account as objective as possible.

By 1969 the use of LSD in behavior modification programs was old hat, its effectiveness discredited.  Jolly West had moved on to electro-shock treatments.

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Apparently I haven't made myself clear enough. 

I don't buy the idea that Reeve Whitson would conspire to murder his friend Sharon Tate, the daughter of a fellow US intelligence official.

I don't buy the idea that either Charles Manson or Tex Watson were intelligence operatives.

I don't buy the idea that because Whitson had connections to the CIA and the Skorzeny network the un-buyable ideas above become more palatable.

I do buy Manson's account of the crimes found in Manson In His Own Words.  I think Nuel Emmons skillfully drew out of Manson an account as objective as possible.

By 1969 the use of LSD in behavior modification programs was old hat, its effectiveness discredited.  Jolly West had moved on to electro-shock treatments.

Mr. Varnell - All you have to say about the incredibly weird connections of Reeve Whitson is that if he was MI there is no way he could have been party to the murder of the daughter of another MI officer. Really? 

[Cliff Varnell]

44 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Mr. Varnell - All you have to say about the incredibly weird connections of Reeve Whitson is that if he was MI there is no way he could have been party to the murder of the daughter of another MI officer. Really? 

Yes Paul, I'm saying that Whitson's CIA/Skorzeny connections were incidental to the T/L murders.

Do you have evidence of a beef between Reeve Whitson and Sharon Tate?

Can you show evidence of a beef between Reeve Whitson and Col. Paul Tate?

What's the motive for MI involvement in the T/L murders?  Those MKULTRA LSD experiments were discarded by 1969.  If they wanted to "discredit the counter-culture" why didn't they commit copy-cat "crazy hippie" crimes right after Woodstock, the counter-culture's apex?

Would it kill you to read Manson In His Own Words before you dismiss my conclusions?

Edited August 25, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Yes Paul, I'm saying that Whitson's CIA/Skorzeny connections were incidental to the T/L murders.

Do you have evidence of a beef between Reeve Whitson and Sharon Tate?

Can you show evidence of a beef between Reeve Whitson and Col. Paul Tate?

What's the motive for MI involvement in the T/L murders?  Those MKULTRA LSD experiments were discarded by 1969.  If they wanted to "discredit the counter-culture" why didn't they commit copy-cat "crazy hippie" crimes right after Woodstock, the counter-culture's apex?

Would it kill you to read Manson In His Own Words before you dismiss my conclusions?

Wouldn’t kill me. I just can’t believe how close minded you are on this subject. Dismissing these odd connections because of some random objection to the possibility that a military intelligence officer might not have the highest ethical standards. 

[Cliff Varnell]

16 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Wouldn’t kill me. I just can’t believe how close minded you are on this subject

I read the book and I can't believe the CIA-did-it angle.

Quote

 

. Dismissing these odd connections because of some random objection to the possibility that a military intelligence officer might not have the highest ethical standards. 

How does "not having the highest ethical standards" correlate to arranging the murder of a pregnant friend who happened to be the daughter of a military intelligence officer?

I'm waiting for a shred of evidence beyond the assumption that proximity equals causation.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

3 minutes ago, Robert Wheeler said:

The JFK Assassination Forum is no place to peddle conspiracy theories Paul! /s

I'm waiting to hear a conspiracy theory for why Reeve Whitson would arrange the murder of Sharon Tate.

Because.  Reasons.  Skorzeny...??

That's not good enough.

[David Andrews]

For circumstances showing pre=planning of the attack, see William Weston's post #16 at DPF's Manson thread:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard&p=125978#post125978

 

[Cliff Varnell]

36 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

For circumstances showing pre=planning of the attack, see William Weston's post #16 at DPF's Manson thread:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard&p=125978#post125978

 

Okay.

<quote on>

Thanks for notifying me of the other thread. I have been out of town for the last few weeks. I see that I have some catching up to do.

As for [dog-keeper William] Garretson, I cannot see how he could be an innocent bystander. Most researchers, including me, cannot believe he failed to hear what was going on outside.

<quote off>

So William Garretson was an accessory to murder because researchers cannot believe he was anything else?

That's evidence?

<quote on>

Garretson was in charge of the dogs, including a Weimariner noted for his viciousness as an attack dog. That the dog was not out prowling around must be due to the fact that Garretson had something to do with keeping him contained. Garretson had been the dogkeeper since March 1969, prior to Manson's visit to the Cielo house on March 23.

<quote off>

Weren't the dogs discovered by the police in a closet in the main house?

<quote on>

Garretson mentioned on his polygraph test on August 10 a "Patty Montgomery" who stayed with him for a while at the guest house. “Patty Montgomery” was an alias for Patricia Krenwinkel. The dogs probably knew her and got used to her presence. And of course, Garretson would have gotten to know the Manson Family. Patricia was probably his controller.

<quote off>

If Krenwinkle knew the dogs that would explain why they didn't bark, wouldn't it?

I'd love to see the evidence Patricia Krenwinkle was an intel operative. 

Ya know, for so many f-cked up kids there sure were a lot of intel agents...

<quote on, emphasis in the original>

I saw on the other thread that Joseph McBride posted a transcript of Mae Brussell’s October 13, 1971 show on Manson. I fully agree with her when she said “...the murder of Sharon Tate and the other persons in her home was a political massacre. ... It had to be planned well in advance of when it happened.”

<quote off>

Mae came to that conclusion prior to investigation.  Mae Brusell was a great researcher but that didn't make her immune to confirmation bias.

<quote on>

When Manson visited Altobelli at Cielo Drive four months before the murders, he noticed the aggressiveness of the Weimariner.   For his Helter Skelter plan to succeed, he must have had some assurance that the dogs would not be a problem. Thus the dogkeeper had to be in on the plot.

<quote off>

Only if one assumes "the Helter Skelter" scenario was legit and not some BS Susan Atkins exaggerated in order to save her skin.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Cliff Varnell