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Ron Bulman

Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

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James Douglass in JFK and The Unspeakable presented a pretty compelling case for such. 

Butch Burroughs, the concession stand operator, and person left in charge of operations at the time, "startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater, "only three or four minutes later."  pg. 292.  "Burroughs said the second man ''looked almost like Oswald, like they were brothers or something."  Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed.  …taken out the back of the theater.

Bernie Haire of Berine's Hobby House, two doors east of the theater went outside when he saw police cars congregating.  When he couldn't see what was happening because of the crowd he went to the alley out back.  It too was full of police cars.  "stopped outside the rear door and witnessed what he thought for decades was the arrest of Oswald"  "brought a young white man out … put him in a police car and drove off."  Told in 1987 Oswald had been taken out the front entrance he was shocked.

Burroughs told Douglass he sold Oswald pop corn at 11:15, the exact time the warren omission claimed Tippitt was shot (it was earlier, a whole different story).  In 1987 he told Jim Marrs (Crossfire) she sold Oswald the popcorn at 11:10.

Some members of the Dallas Police Department knew two Oswald's were arrested, they participated in the second arrest.  They knew and participated in a conspiracy to cover it up with their silence.

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I’m glad you brought this up. The arrest out of the back door is one of the parts of the Oswald tale that really interests me. Hoping some of the experts here can explain what they know about the arrest around back. 

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During author James Douglas's 2007 interview of Butch Burroughs,  Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater.  He saw the arrest of Classic Oswald® and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike."  Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something."

As we all know, Classic Oswald was arrested on the main floor of the Texas Theater.  But for nearly two decades now, I’ve posted on my website about John Armstrong’s research two DPD docs showing a “Lee Harvey Oswald” was also arrested in the balcony.

balcony2.gif

balcony1.gif

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I know this is old news to some on the forum, if 10/11 years can be considered "old" in the case.  But to me it's been kind of a linchpin in the reality of two Oswald's.  I know its free on line now but I've never made the time to read Harvey and Lee, but until I do it's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of the CIA developing, and controlling, two Oswald's since elementary school.  However, it seems to be a fact that there were two in Dallas in the weeks before the assassination and immediately after it.  The idea that the CIA might have found a look alike for LHO and developed such the last year or two of his life seems a reasonable possibility to me at least.  Especially in Dallas the last month or so.

Lee at the firing range being rude.  The lone nutters say the witnesses must have been mistaken.  The test drive at Down Town Lincoln Mercury.  Oswald couldn't drive.  Couldn't be him.  He was at work or otherwise accounted for.  More.

Then after the assassination Craig sees Oswald running down the embankment by the rail road  track and getting in the Rambler heading South on Elm.  He must be mistaken.  The Dallas County Sheriff's Office man of the year in 1961.  Fired by Decker because he wouldn't stop answering questions about it.  Harassed to the point of suicide?

So one Oswald probably didn't try to get on McWatters bus but did take Whaley's cab to 500 N Beckley, 5 blocks past his rooming house, then kept heading South on foot.  But Earline Roberts said he did come by, apparently to change clothes while two cops stopped briefly and tooted their horn, left, then Oswald went out front to the bus stop and stood around long enough for her to observe him.  At 3-4 minutes after 1:00.  Burroughs said Oswald entered the Texas Theater between 1:00-1:07, went to the balcony then came down and bought popcorn at 1:15, or 1:10 (1987).  One or the other is impossible without two Ozzie's.  

Then there's the linchpin.  Oswald arrested on the ground floor taken out the front, witnessed by Burroughs and many others, captured on camera.  Oswald, reported by the DPD as arrested in the balcony.  Then witnessed by Burroughs 3-4 minutes after one Oswald being taken out the front, another being taken out the back in handcuffs.  Supported by Haire's statement of standing outside the back door observing Oswald being brought out of it, being put in a police car and taken away.  Sound's like two Oswald's to me.

Then there's mechanic Whites story of seeing Oswald "hiding" in a red ford falcon in the El Chico parking lot, taking off when he approached closely, curious, writing the license plate number down,  20 minutes or so after he was arrested.  The same El Chico parking lot that Whaley let Oswald out next to, at 500 North Becky before Tippitt was shot.  Vaganov had a red Thunderbird.

There's also the DPD dispatch at 1:46 hiding in the balcony (Marrs). 

Maybe tomorrow we can get to Eddie.

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On 7/18/2019 at 10:58 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Burroughs told Douglass he sold Oswald pop corn at 11:15, the exact time the warren omission claimed Tippitt was shot (it was earlier, a whole different story).  In 1987 he told Jim Marrs (Crossfire) she sold Oswald the popcorn at 11:10.

Some members of the Dallas Police Department knew two Oswald's were arrested, they participated in the second arrest.  They knew and participated in a conspiracy to cover it up with their silence.

Oswald sold popcorn before the shooting? Never heard of that! You mean Pacific Time?

What happened to the popcorn? 

How do you know that some DPD officers knew about 2 Oswald’s? Who are these officers?

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Yes popcorn.  Don't know what you mean about Pacific Time.  

On 7/19/2019 at 9:39 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I know this is old news to some on the forum, if 10/11 years can be considered "old" in the case.  But to me it's been kind of a linchpin in the reality of two Oswald's.  I know its free on line now but I've never made the time to read Harvey and Lee, but until I do it's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of the CIA developing, and controlling, two Oswald's since elementary school.  However, it seems to be a fact that there were two in Dallas in the weeks before the assassination and immediately after it.  The idea that the CIA might have found a look alike for LHO and developed such the last year or two of his life seems a reasonable possibility to me at least.  Especially in Dallas the last month or so.

Lee at the firing range being rude.  The lone nutters say the witnesses must have been mistaken.  The test drive at Down Town Lincoln Mercury.  Oswald couldn't drive.  Couldn't be him.  He was at work or otherwise accounted for.  More.

Then after the assassination Craig sees Oswald running down the embankment by the rail road  track and getting in the Rambler heading South on Elm.  He must be mistaken.  The Dallas County Sheriff's Office man of the year in 1961.  Fired by Decker because he wouldn't stop answering questions about it.  Harassed to the point of suicide?

So one Oswald probably didn't try to get on McWatters bus but did take Whaley's cab to 500 N Beckley, 5 blocks past his rooming house, then kept heading South on foot.  But Earline Roberts said he did come by, apparently to change clothes while two cops stopped briefly and tooted their horn, left, then Oswald went out front to the bus stop and stood around long enough for her to observe him.  At 3-4 minutes after 1:00.  Burroughs said Oswald entered the Texas Theater between 1:00-1:07, went to the balcony then came down and bought popcorn at 1:15, or 1:10 (1987).  One or the other is impossible without two Ozzie's.  

Then there's the linchpin.  Oswald arrested on the ground floor taken out the front, witnessed by Burroughs and many others, captured on camera.  Oswald, reported by the DPD as arrested in the balcony.  Then witnessed by Burroughs 3-4 minutes after one Oswald being taken out the front, another being taken out the back in handcuffs.  Supported by Haire's statement of standing outside the back door observing Oswald being brought out of it, being put in a police car and taken away.  Sound's like two Oswald's to me.

Then there's mechanic Whites story of seeing Oswald "hiding" in a red ford falcon in the El Chico parking lot, taking off when he approached closely, curious, writing the license plate number down,  20 minutes or so after he was arrested.  The same El Chico parking lot that Whaley let Oswald out next to, at 500 North Becky before Tippitt was shot.  Vaganov had a red Thunderbird.

There's also the DPD dispatch at 1:46 hiding in the balcony (Marrs). 

Maybe tomorrow we can get to Eddie.

Oops.  My faulty memory,  Eddie was Jack Davis.  One of the 20 or less patrons in the 900 seat theater at the time.  One Ozzie crossed in front of him then sat down beside him then got up and went and sat down by another patron then went out to the lobby but came back.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2019 at 10:39 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I know its free on line now but I've never made the time to read Harvey and Lee, but until I do it's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of the CIA developing, and controlling, two Oswald's .........

Not hard to believe.

 

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

....since elementary school.

Harder to to believe, especially since LHO was born prior to the CIA and the (can’t find the word) of it’s predecessor, the OSS.

Armstrong’s research sought the lengths and breadth of this situation. What you can embrace and prove is something you can praise him for is you can’t condemn him for is giving you the opportunity to do so.

@Steve Thomas brought some enlightening information, in another thread, on the the two Oswalds at the theater, about 2 years ago.

The most striking and independent finding, for me, was the simultaneous WC testimony of Marina and the two ladies from the furniture mart. 

I know there were two Oswald’s. I don’t have to be familiar with Armstrong’s book. Nor do I have to accept anything or everything from that tome.

Edited by Michael Clark

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Oswald sold popcorn before the shooting? Never heard of that! You mean Pacific Time?

What happened to the popcorn? 

How do you know that some DPD officers knew about 2 Oswald’s? Who are these officers?

Yes popcorn.  Don't know what you mean about Pacific Time.  Burroughs told Jim Marrs in 1987 he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15.  Then he repeated this to James Douglass in 2007, 20 years later.  Consistent.  Why never before?  They didn't ask, he was scared to say more, like many others?  His Warren Commission questioning in Dallas, not called to Washington, was cursory at best.  Nothing about when did he enter, "we'll get to that later".  No statement or affidavit I've seen from 11/22-23 64.  Haven't looked yet to see if the HSCA was interested.

 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burroughs.htm

The thing is here that Burroughs told shoe salesman Johnny Brewer entering the theater at 1:35 when questioned by him that yes, someone entered the theater without him seeing him earlier.  He couldn't see the front door partitioned off from the concession stand but he could hear it open and he did.  If someone didn't pass him the only option was going up the stairs off the entrance to the balcony. (Marrs interview 1987, Crossfire 1st edition).  Hearing the door open occurred between 1:00 and 1:07 per Burroughs.  He sold popcorn to Oswald a t 1:15.  Buying popcorn was likely a ruse on Oswald's part to check out the lobby for his contact he'd not yet found.  Probably trashed the popcorn or left it under a seat.  He went back in still looking for the match to his torn in half dollar bill.

Note. If you look at the pictures of the lobby on line I think it has been reconfigured to accommodate the bar after the fire in 1995.

https://thetexastheatre.com/about/#history   

 

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Ron, you wrote 11:15, not 1:15. If it was at 1:15 in Dallas, then it would have been 11:15 in California. First he said he sold Oswald popcorn, then he said that she sold him popcorn. Did Lee buy popcorn twice?

"Burroughs told Douglass he sold Oswald pop corn at 11:15, the exact time the warren omission claimed Tippitt was shot (it was earlier, a whole different story).  In 1987 he told Jim Marrs (Crossfire) she sold Oswald the popcorn at 11:10."

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Getting back to Jack Davis, his story seems to support one Oswald in the Texas Theater a few minutes after 1:00, I.E., about the time Tippitt was really shot.  Jim Marrs interviewed him in the 1st edition of Crossfire. 

He sat in the right rear section.  Watching the opening credits, the movie started at 1:00, a man he later learns was Oswald crosses in front of him, one of maybe 20 people in a 900 seat theater, and sits down.   Then he get's up and moves a ways and sits down by another patron.  He repeats this process once more.  Then he gets up and goes out to the lobby. 

Is this when Burroughs see's him and sells him popcorn?  Burroughs sees him go back in to the ground floor of the theater and sit down by a pregnant woman who gets up and goes to the bathroom.  A few minutes after seeing Oswald head to the lobby Davis Thinks he saw him come back in down the left side aisle opposite him and set down.

20 minutes later Johnny Brewer arrived from the shoe store up the street, asking Burroughs about someone who had just come in.  Then the lights came on.  Davis went to the lobby to see why, saw cops rushing in, then the Oswald that sat by him being taken out.  

The real kicker inside the Texas Theater is Applin.  From popcorn to Jack Ruby. 

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Ok now I have a question.  Several actually since DVP has not provided his thoughts on that which you have been writing. 

If the movie starts at 1 and this Oswald is in the theater, who gets popcorn fifteen minutes later?  Did he go back out?  Could not be the Oswald who went to his boarding house.   So which Oswald are you suggesting went upstairs?   Could you explain this a little more?  Which do you believe bought popcorn, was seen by Brewer, went in without a ticket, was arrested and brought out the front, was arrested and brought out the back.  Is there any concrete proof another person was arrested.  So clear even DVP would admit two arrests were made? If so can you provide it?

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Posted (edited)
Cory Santos said:

I know DVP wants to explain his theory?

I think it's possible that some of the confusion about the alleged "two arrests" could have been initially sparked by the fact that Johnny Brewer was briefly held at gunpoint as a suspect by the police at the back of the theater. And Brewer, like Oswald, was a slender white male in his 20s.

I can't find anything in the records that indicates whether or not Brewer was actually dragged outside into the alley behind the theater when he was held at gunpoint....and, of course, Brewer wasn't actually placed into a police car....but if someone did see the incident between the police and Johnny Brewer at the back of the theater, this could certainly have elevated the confusion of any witnesses as to how many people were being detained by the police at the theater.

JOHNNY BREWER (WC Testimony) -- "I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them, and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there."

JOHNNY BREWER (1986 Mock Trial Testimony) -- "...a gun was held on me."

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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