Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Guest]

This place is like a soap opera.  The beauty of long-running soaps like “Days of Our Lives” was that you could miss three months of daily episodes and pick right back up where you left off.  Everyone would still be agonizing over whether mousy Lydia was going to discover that hunky Derrick was cheating with vampish Betty.  I haven’t even glanced at this site since last Christmas, but insofar as I can tell absolutely nothing has changed.

Let’s say there was a conspiracy afoot and that it involved two Oswalds.  What were the odds that whichever LHO was in the TSBD would make it out alive, let alone by walking out the front door?  What were the odds that whichever LHO made it from the TSBD to 1026 N. Beckley by foot, bus and taxi would successfully do so?  What were the odds that whichever LHO encountered Tippit would do so at that precise time and location and in those precise circumstances?  What were the odds that whichever LHO encountered Tippit would successfully make his convoluted way to the vicinity of the TT?  What were the odds of this LHO successfully making his way into the TT without paying – and why would he take that risk?  Why would the two Oswalds plan to rendezvous in a public location like the TT, far from the TSBD, the rooming house and dozens of other safer and more likely locations?  What were the odds that the two-Oswald scheme wouldn’t explode in the conspirators’ faces right there at the TT or in the hours or days following the arrest(s)?  How many things beyond the control of the conspirators could have gone wrong at every stage from the TSBD to the TT?

If one assumes a conspiracy involving two Oswalds, one must also assume the conspirators inexplicably planned an outrageously convoluted series of events involving numerous unnecessary and essentially insane risks for no discernible reason – precisely the opposite of the way real-world conspirators work.  This is true not just of the TSBD-to-TT scenario but of literally every stage of the pre-planning, the assassination itself and the aftermath as envisioned by two-Oswald theorists.

As unlikely as it all seems in retrospect, we know that LHO did walk out the front door of the TSBD, did find his convoluted way to 1026 N. Beckley, did encounter and shoot Tippit, did find his convoluted way to the vicinity of the TT, did slip into the TT without paying, and did end up being arrested in a chaotic scene.  A mountain of evidence supports this scenario, so two-Oswald theorists are forced to deal with it.  Unfortunately for them, they can’t just weave an entirely different scenario but are forced to overlay their theory on this reality.

Their tactic is that nothing in the scenario is as it seems at first blush.  There were two LHOs – or perhaps at some stages of the scenario no LHO.  All the inconvenient evidence was planted or faked.  All the inconvenient witnesses were either part of the conspiracy or terrorized into lying.  Every inconsistency or gap in the evidence, no matter how understandable or innocent, receives a sinister conspiracy spin and becomes “proof” of the conspiracy.  What about the evidence that actually would support the two-Oswald scenario?  Oh, it was of course flushed, even to the extent of killing witnesses who would have supported it – leaving us with only those 10,000 tantalizing “clues” and "red flags" the conspirators overlooked but which the wily two-Oswald theorists have spotted.

The obvious problem with all conspiracy theories is that (1) they are refuted by literally mountains of evidence; (2) they hinge almost entirely on raw speculation and perfectly understandable gaps or inconsistencies in the mountains of evidence rather than on the best evidence itself; and, most importantly, (3) they MAKE NO LOGICAL SENSE and involve scenarios that bear no resemblance to ANY real-world conspiracy.

A conspiracy, folks, is a PLAN.  At the level of a Presidential assassination conspiracy involving the usual suspects, it would be a HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED plan.  If it were discernible at all, which is unlikely, the planning and sophistication would be evident.  It would not look like a Looney Tunes cartoon, a Rube Goldberg contraption or a Keystone Cops silent flick.

As always, my challenge is:  If you seriously believe your two-Oswald silliness, just explain in plain English how the events from the TSBD to the arrest at the TT could possibly have made sense in the context of a carefully planned, real-world conspiracy.  That’s a purely rhetorical challenge – you can’t do it.  You don’t care if they make any logical sense.  You actually prefer to bog down in minutiae than to step back and ask whether what you are propounding makes any sense at all.  You’re simply JFK assassination hobbyists who for some odd reason seem to derive pleasure from this sort of mental masturbation.

Gotta run.  I'm still waiting to see if Lydia finds out about Derrick and Betty, even though they are now all 89 years old.  I’m sure conspiracy theorists can relate.

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/22/2019 at 5:00 PM, Paul Bacon said:

Ironic that you think CTers are being creative and selective.  It was the Warren Commission who's creative and selective actions necessitated further research.

Bingo!

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/25/2019 at 1:26 AM, Cory Santos said:

Wait now Ruby was at the theater? Lol.  I would not give that witness any credibility.

Why LOL?  He freely admits he was intimidated at the time from giving his full testimony. 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 7/22/2019 at 5:59 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

From the Dallas Police Department:

From the CIA:

 

On 7/28/2019 at 10:05 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I knew I'd seen that half dollar somewhere before.  Thanks Jim.  It's important I think.  Only one purpose I can see to having such, to find a match.  I'd think the first Oswald took it to the balcony, then the orchestra, where caught with it.

Ron,

That must have occurred to the authorities as well, because it sure vanished.  As John A. noted, the file entry above is the ONLY reference to the half bills (besides the “torn” bill note, which could be anything).
 

On 7/29/2019 at 12:15 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

By possessing the halves of two different bills, do you think LHO was supposed to meet up with one person who also had the halves to those two bills; or that he was supposed to meet up with two different people at different stages who might, or might not know each other?

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Good question, and I can only speculate.  My pick for a possible contact was the pregnant lady “Oswald” briefly sat next to and Burroughs said went to the restroom and then wasn’t seen again before the police arrived.  Was it her job to walk out past Hardy’s Shoe Store and tell Brewer and/or Rowe that “Oswald” was inside the theater?
 

[David Josephs]

deleted

Edited August 1, 2019 by David Josephs

[David Boylan]

Jim/Steve/Ron, et al.

AMBIDDY/1 mentioned above was Manuel Artime. Henry Hecksher was his case office and was tasked with the AMWORLD project which was the "autonomous" anti-Castro initiative that was based in Nicaragua and Costa Rica. This was just getting started at this time.  David Morales and Ted Shackley would later train Artime and Rafael Quintero on intelligence activities.

Didn't John Martino say that LHO was to meet his contact at the Texas Theater, flown out of the country and killed?

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, David Boylan said:

 

Didn't John Martino say that LHO was to meet his contact at the Texas Theater, flown out of the country and killed?

 

 

David,

 

From jfkfacts.org

https://jfkfacts.org/if-there-was-a-jfk-conspiracy-wouldnt-somebody-have-talked/

"The second person to whom Martino confided was a former business partner named Fred Claassen. He said Martino told him:

“The anti-Castro people put Oswald together. Oswald didn’t know who he was working for — he was just ignorant of who was really putting him together. Oswald was to meet his contact at the Texas Theater [the movie house where Oswald was arrested]. They were to meet Oswald in the theater and get him out of the country, and then eliminate him. Oswald made a mistake . . . there was no way we could get to him. They had Ruby kill him.”"

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Let’s consider the title of this thread.  This is probably a long shot, but . . . .

Air Force vet Robert Vinson said he was on a nearly empty C-54 Cargo plane that left Andrews Air Force Base the afternoon of 11/22 when it was apparently diverted and landed on what he thought was a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas.  He said a Jeep with three men (a driver, a man who might be Cuban, and a fellow who “looked an awful lot like Oswald") drove up and the two passengers got on.  Vinson claimed the plane took off and went to the Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico.  He added that the entire base was on lockdown until later that evening.  

Here’s part 2 of a YouTube interview with Vinson: CLICK HERE

 

[Robert Harper]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:44 PM, Lance Payette said:

– precisely the opposite of the way real-world conspirators work.

Mr. Payette's dumping on the site and it's contributors is based - one assumes - on his vast knowledge of "how real world conspiracies work." In that case, I guess he'd say that the 9/11 attack was obviously done just as the government said.I mean why not, eh? A 500 billion dollar defense system can't stop a few guys who practiced at flight school. Yeah, "real world" conspirators don't make mistakes or arrange multiple possibilities to confuse.

 Who would leave ashes for everything but allow a passport to survive? Who would arrange the transfer of ownership of the WTC to a pal of Netanyahu? Better yet, who would take terrorist insurance for "two" incidents? Who would have Urban movers and the dancing Israeli's be seen by so many? Who would notify via instant messages an Israeli company employees that in 2 hours "something" would occur? Who would clean up the site and deny molten steel was present? Who would not treat the site as a crime scene? Who had the steel carted away before it could be examined? Why would a building - which would be the highest structure in most US cities - just free fall all of a sudden? Why for the first time in history did a fire bring down 2 massive steel buildings? I guess the "real world conspirators" wouldn't do such things, so it must be true what they said, right?Who would arrange for Ehud Barak to appear on BBC and state -categorically - within 2 hours, that it was a Muslim terrorist act? Why did the BBC reporter announce the free fall before it happened? Why allow a Bush family member to be part of a group that made money on insider trading based on the demise in shares for the two airlines involved? "Real world conspirators" wouldn't do that, would they?

The one "real world" conspiracy that was uncovered was because  the pilot was shot down over Nicaragua and he was identified as CIA. Hard to fast talk your way through that one so, you take care of business another way: hearings, convictions and pardons.  THAT's the way "real world conspiracies" happen. A gullible public, a biased media, and the abuse of authority covers a lot of mistakes.No amount of bugliosing can change that.
 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Robert Harper

[James DiEugenio]

No amount of bugliosing can change that.

LOL

Thank WN for that addition to our vocabulary.

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/25/2019 at 8:11 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

It’s certainly your right to mock any of the witnesses you chose, but at the same time how about at least giving a Bronx Cheer to the authorities who didn’t even bother to keep a list of theater patrons who witnessed the arrest of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  These were critical witnesses!

These witnesses could have told us when they thought “Oswald” appeared inside the theater (which is hotly debated now), how he behaved inside, whether he resisted arrest and/or tried to shoot a cop, and whether anyone else was arrested or otherwise escorted out of the theater by police, among other issues.  EVERY ONE OF THESE WITNESSES SHOULD HAVE BEEN QUESTIONED IN DETAIL!  But no one bothered even to keep a list of their names!

Is it unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that the authorities were hiding something?

Why do private researchers such as Jim Marrs, John Armstrong, and James Douglass have to try to track these people down?  Only a few have been located, among them Jack Davis.  Below is a note Mr. Davis sent to John A. making a minor correction about where he was seated when he saw “Oswald” moving around in such an odd manor in the theater.  He also said he saw “Oswald” get up and walk back into the lobby right around the time Burroughs said he sold him popcorn (which just happens to be the alleged time the WC wants us to believe Tippit was killed).

These witnesses could not be allowed to testify!

Jim, any more info you know of on the Hutson or Gibson noted in the diagram?

[Ron Bulman]

I was looking through No More Silence at Texas Theater references.  A couple worth noting:

Lieutenant Cunningham: "I went up to the lady cashier and said, "I had a report that some young man ran in the theater here."  "No, she said, "There's a young man upstairs in the balcony.  He just went up there."  "So three of us went up the stairs... top step we encountered a kid smoking a cigarette... somebody hollered "He's downstairs!"

Paul Bentley:  "When I entered the door a man told me that the man we were looking for was in the balcony" "I went to the mezzanine and checked... both restrooms prior to getting to the balcony itself, there were only four or five people.  A patrolman came up right after that, I advised him to check those people and get their names... projectionist, turn on the lights... retraced my steps down the stairs."

[Ron Bulman]

On 8/1/2019 at 11:14 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

From jfkfacts.org

https://jfkfacts.org/if-there-was-a-jfk-conspiracy-wouldnt-somebody-have-talked/

"The second person to whom Martino confided was a former business partner named Fred Claassen. He said Martino told him:

“The anti-Castro people put Oswald together. Oswald didn’t know who he was working for — he was just ignorant of who was really putting him together. Oswald was to meet his contact at the Texas Theater [the movie house where Oswald was arrested]. They were to meet Oswald in the theater and get him out of the country, and then eliminate him. Oswald made a mistake . . . there was no way we could get to him. They had Ruby kill him.”"

Steve Thomas

 

 

What was (which) Oswald's mistake?  He didn't stay in the balcony where the second one led them to?

[John Butler]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 12:47 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s consider the title of this thread.  This is probably a long shot, but . . . .

Air Force vet Robert Vinson said he was on a nearly empty C-54 Cargo plane that left Andrews Air Force Base the afternoon of 11/22 when it was apparently diverted and landed on what he thought was a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas.  He said a Jeep with three men (a driver, a man who might be Cuban, and a fellow who “looked an awful lot like Oswald") drove up and the two passengers got on.  Vinson claimed the plane took off and went to the Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico.  He added that the entire base was on lockdown until later that evening.  

Here’s part 2 of a YouTube interview with Vinson: CLICK HERE

 

Robert Vinson says on the video that the assassination of President Kennedy was announced at 12:29.  Allowing for the differences in watches and time in those days that could have been somewhere around that time.  I don't recall him saying they landed near that time.

So, the events of the Texas Theater must have occurred prior to the C-54 landing on the road under construction (Houston St?  Does that go near the Trinity River?  The TSBD is reasonably close to the Trinity) .  The events of the Texas Theater couldn't have happened after the plane landed because the alleged Oswald on the plane would not have shown up at the theater.

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/30/2019 at 1:35 PM, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Isn't there also a story about a plane sitting with the engine idling at Redbird Airport the day of the assassination?  

Yes.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mystery-of-red-bird-airport

Might it be true if worth buglioziation?

Edited August 4, 2019 by Ron Bulman