Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Question: What kind of manager allows customers to close up and lock the store?

Answer: None do. These "IBM men" from the neighborhood were known to Brewer since August of 1962. Brewer explicity denied these men were customers. ("They'd just come in and kill time and lounge around.")

 

Paul,

 

What kind of guys just "lounge around" a shoe store?

None. They might "lounge around a malt shop, or a bar, but a shoe store?

Project WALNUT:

You can see a reference to this system (WALNUT) on page 6 in the document entitled: “DCI John McCone and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy”

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_026.PDF

that Douglas Caddy referred to in his thread, “CIA report concluded director led JFK assassination coverup

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/helms1.htm

 

“Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other?
Mr. McCONE. There is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means of handling files, and you, Mr. Chief Justice, saw some of our installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCONE. I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. This would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common responsibility.”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/helms1.htm

 

“Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other?
Mr. McCONE. There is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means of handling files, and you, Mr. Chief Justice, saw some of our installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCONE. I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. This would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common responsibility.”

 

According to Wikipedia, WALNUT used an IBM 1360 data retrieval and name trace system employing IBM punch cards and microfilm. Paper documents were microfilmed and then the pages were scanned and input into IBM punch cards. The cards were keyword searchable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1360

 

CIA Project WALNUT

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01139A000200020028-0.pdf

May, 1959

\

 

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve and Ron,

Your are both correct to suspect that the "IBM men" at Hardy's Shoe store played a  key role that day.

In this 1996 interview with Ian Griggs which I posted earlier, Johnny Brewer made several interesting admissions.  Obviously he introduced the "IBM men" into the narrative.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=8&tab=page

But even more fascinating is the following:

1. Contrary to his Warren Commission testimony, what drew Brewer's attention to the lobby area WAS NOT "OSWALD"! 

Brewer freely confessed to Griggs that he, Brewer, "was actually on my way to come out from behind the counter to go outside, to watch out and see what was going on when this fellow entered from my left as I'm standing there.  . . . And actually, I was a little annoyed because I thought it was someone coming in as I was fixing to go out . . ."

2. Brewer was not certain the "the man" had sneaked into the Texas Theater: (" I didn't really know for sure whether he bought a ticket or not." ) (Contrary to his later statements, the ticket booth did not butt out onto the sidewalk. Instead, in 1963 it was slightly recessed, although not as far back as it is today. Nonetheless, in 1963, the ticket window was NOT visible from Hardy's Shoes. One would have to walk within a few feet of the entrance to the theater to ascertain whether a transaction actually took place. See the first video below at the 2:15 mark.)

So why did Brewer's conversation with Julia Postal come about?

Well, it only happened after Brewer returned to Hardy's Shoes and talked to the mysterious "IBM men"! ("I went back and - I can't remember either of their names - but one of them closed up for me while I was gone.")

Brewer hinted that they urged him to go up to the theater ("So they stayed there and all the time I'm thinking to myself what am I doing here?") In other words, Brewer himself wasn't sure why he was going to the theater, but it only happened after the two "IBM men" said they'd stay at Hardy's and that they'd close it up for Brewer. These men were not at Hardy's when Brewer returned later that afternoon "the store was locked." (Yet these men disappeared as soon as "Oswald" was arrested, never to be seen or heard from again . . .)

Question: What kind of manager allows customers to close up and lock the store?

Answer: None do. These "IBM men" from the neighborhood were known to Brewer since August of 1962. Brewer explicity denied these men were customers. ("They'd just come in and kill time and lounge around.")

3. Since no one ("Oswald" or anyone else) passed by Butch Burroughs at the concession stand on the way to the main floor, the only possible path for the man to have taken would be up the stairs to the balcony. And, in fact, that is exactly what Brewer and Burroughs suspected. They both walked upstairs to check, but according to Brewer there was no one in the balcony. (I don't believe that. I think there was at least one person up there. This matches so well with the TWO DPD arrest reports stating that "Oswald" was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater!)

4. Brewer hinted that he had been given a description of "Oswald": "Well first of all I walked all the way down the left aisle and just kinda looked for somebody who looked like him . . ."

Say what?  Brewer "just kinda looked for somebody who looked like him"? Why not just look for the man he had just seen outside the shoe store?

Further: "Nobody had gone out. So I walked back up to the other side and walked out and I said to Julie "Call the police" and I said "Butch, you stay here out front and if anybody matching his description leaves, then stop them . . ."

5. Brewer told Julia Postal to call the Dallas Police with the report of a suspicious person, but " I still had no reason to have somebody call the police. I'm not sure what the hell I'm doing here to start with."

Gentlemen, I believe that with this statement, Brewer virtually confessed that he had been put up to the task of drawing the Dallas Police to the Texas Theater. 

That fits so perfectly with what I argued earlier about the purpose of the Brewer mission, namely to provide a cover story for the arrival of the DPD to the Texas Theater. 

Who could have put Johnny Brewer up to such a thing? What acquaintances of his were in the right place at the right time to persuade this 22 year old to go report a "suspicious person"?

Only the mysterious "IBM men" who so helpfully paved the way for Brewer to step into history's spotlight, and then, like magicians, disappeared without a trace. 

Note that in the second video below, that as soon as Brewer described watching the man enter the Texas Theater ("I was still in front of my store and watched him enter the theater") Vincent Bugliosi interrupted Brewer! Bugliosi did not want to take a chance that Brewer might inadvertently let slip the fact that Brewer then returned to the store and talked with the IBM men! Bugliosi interjected and gestured (as Brewer was still speaking) to say " thereupon you proceeded toward the theater." Brewer then described briefly his interaction with Julia Postal.

By interrupting when he did, Bugliosi knowingly prevented Brewer from describing his return to Hardy's and his conversation with the two IBM men!

That interruption was no accident - Bugliosi knew exactly what to hide: The two IBM men and their role in urging Johnny Brewer to report the "suspicious person."

(See the 3:35 mark and beyond in the second video below.)

 

"

 

 

 

Paul, thanks for adding much more detail to what I was curious about regarding the IBM men and Brewer.

That's really interesting about Brewer being bugliosed live and in person by Bugliosi himself.

[Paul Jolliffe]

18 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

What kind of guys just "lounge around" a shoe store?

None. They might "lounge around a malt shop, or a bar, but a shoe store?

Project WALNUT:

You can see a reference to this system (WALNUT) on page 6 in the document entitled: “DCI John McCone and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy”

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_026.PDF

that Douglas Caddy referred to in his thread, “CIA report concluded director led JFK assassination coverup

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/helms1.htm

 

“Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other?
Mr. McCONE. There is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means of handling files, and you, Mr. Chief Justice, saw some of our installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCONE. I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. This would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common responsibility.”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/helms1.htm

 

“Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other?
Mr. McCONE. There is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means of handling files, and you, Mr. Chief Justice, saw some of our installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCONE. I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. This would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common responsibility.”

 

According to Wikipedia, WALNUT used an IBM 1360 data retrieval and name trace system employing IBM punch cards and microfilm. Paper documents were microfilmed and then the pages were scanned and input into IBM punch cards. The cards were keyword searchable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1360

 

CIA Project WALNUT

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01139A000200020028-0.pdf

May, 1959

\

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Thanks for the details on Project WALNUT. 

This raises the question: were the two "IBM men" really from IBM or were they actually CIA/Army Intelligence? 

I can't really think of a WALNUT connection/use/cover for Hardy's Shoes, so why were those men hanging around there since August of 1962? 

It is impossible that any potential assassination plot could have conceived of using Hardy's Shoes in any way by August of 1962. "Oswald" didn't even move to Dallas until two months before the assassination, so why were those men "lounging around" for 15 months before? In August of 1962, "Oswald" was living in Fort Worth, not Dallas. 

Were these men recruiting Brewer as an informant in a search for subversive "Reds" and lefties? Were these men Brewer's intelligence contacts? A bright, observant, personable shoe salesman might be a source of information on people in the community. In my experience, salesmen ask lots of questions as part of their job, so eliciting information from a commie/symp. could be done without raising suspicions.

If Brewer was recruited as an informant, it seems more likely it would have been by the DPD, rather than by a federal agency. But Brewer identified them as "IBM" which connotes a federal connection, not local. However, these men lived locally so they weren't Washington-based feds. 

If they were really IBM, they were probably helping the Dallas Police Department to computerize its fingerprint files.

From IBM's own history on Predictive Crime Fighting: "In 1963, New York City’s Police Chief Robert Gallati enlisted the help of an IBM ^® 1401 to record and track 5,000,000 sets of criminal fingerprints in New York Police Department (NYPD) files. This new system helped reduce fingerprint search time from days to minutes by allowing the simultaneous search of at least 100 sets of fingerprints. By 1964, cities across the US, such as Philadelphia, Chicago and Salt Lake City, were all using IBM punched cards to record emergency calls and dispatch the appropriate municipal services."

As a side note, the infamous Acting Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach in 1969 became IBM's general counsel. Probably a coincidence, but I've argued elsewhere that Katzenbach was the key contact (witting or not) between the conspirators and (an unwitting) LBJ. Katzenbach was the recipient of that bizarre, highly suspicious phone call on Sunday afternoon, 11/22/63 from Eugene Rostow, urging the formation of the Warren Commission. 

Katzenbach was also the one pushing Earl Warren (Katzenbach wrote at least two letters to Warren!) and the Warren Commission to disinter and then cremate "Oswald's" body in January of 1964, all in the name of "saving money" . . . (There was only one reason to dig "Oswald" up and burn his body in 1964 and it had nothing to do with saving money. But that's a separate thread.)

Was Katzenbach's position in 1969 a very lucrative payoff for services rendered?

https://www.dailybreeze.com/2012/05/09/presidential-aide-katzenbach-played-vital-role-in-civil-rights-struggle/

Edited August 13, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Ian Lloyd]

If the 2 "IBM men" locked up Brewer's store, what did they do with the keys? How did Brewer get back in?

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/10/2019 at 1:37 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Hielbronn was where Dennis Ofstein of Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall fame and Thomas H. Crigler were stationed.

Thomas Crigler worked as an Army recruiter. There was a recruiting office about one or two blocks from the Texas Theater and Brewer's Shoe store in Oak Cliff. Crigler lived at 1705 McAdams in Oak Cliff.

 

On December 6, 1963 Thomas Crigler was interviewed by the FBI. He said that he met Olfstein “accidentally” on the street.

See FBI interview of Crigler December 6, 1963:

CD 205 p. 478

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=481&tab=page

 

Thomas H. Crigler, Jr., 1705 McAdams, advised he is currently a Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army Security Agency, Field Representative, assigned to U.S. Army Recruiting Station, Dallas. He advised that he and Dennis Ofstein were assigned to the same U.S. Army branch in Europe and that he knew Ofstein from about June, 1960 to December, 1960 purely as another person attached to the same unit with him. He said that he had never become socially or well acquainted with Ofstein at that time. He said the caption of their group was the 507^th USASA Group, Heilbron, West Germany.”

(This is actually spelled Heilbronn)

 

 

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

1960

(Source: Email from John O'Neil)

My next duty station (after Vint Hill Farms) was with the 507th USASA Group (Field Army) at Heilbronn am Neckar. We had 4 -2½ ton trucks with expandable sides that held all our IBM equipment that ran off portable diesel generators (one per truck). The vans were housed in a big garage and it was a fairly comfortable, if sometimes very cold, arrangement. Being 6 foot 6 and working is a space with a 6 foot roof became a real pain in the neck. “While I was with the 251st they received an IBM 1401 computer (could have been 1410 but I don’t think so). It was the first computer I’d seen outside the IBM plant in Endicott NY. It had been shipped from the US without ever having been mated on the floor (the RAM came from California and the rest from NY). It took several weeks for the trained IBM techs to figure out why it turned itself OFF every time the power was turned ON. That was my introduction to computers.” (Source: Email from James "Bull" Durham) I was stationed at Heilbronn from about April/May of 1960 in the 507th USASA GP. I worked in the com.center as a teletype operator among other duties!!       “Jim Campbell in his email said “(When I was in, no 206 had ever re-enlisted - IBM had a job ready for them when they got out.)” 1958 (Source: Email from Jim Campbell) "I was a Ham Radio Operator before enlisting in the ASA in the Summer of 1957. While being processed at Ft. Devens I was assured by all and sundry that I was destined for a career as an 058 (ditty bopper). Instead, I was tapped for a job of teaching electronics in the Bird Cage at Devens. Not long after starting that job I got the opportunity to become an IBM CE for the ASA. After a stint at IBM school in Endicott and Poughkeepsie, NY I was assigned to USASA HQ Europe in Frankfurt. I worked for a year there in the data processing center on the top floor of the IG Farben Building. Our data processing unit was transferred to Rothwesten in the Summer of 1959 and I worked there outside the Operations Building in some shelters mounted on trucks. I believe that my MOS was 206.10, Cryptanalytic Equipment Repair. I left the army in the Summer of 1960. (When I was in, no 206 had ever re-enlisted - IBM had a job ready for them when they got out. The ASA ran a new group through the IBM school every year or so.)"   Steve Thomas

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

1958 (Source: Email from Jim Campbell) "I was a Ham Radio Operator before enlisting in the ASA in the Summer of 1957. While being processed at Ft. Devens I was assured by all and sundry that I was destined for a career as an 058 (ditty bopper). Instead, I was tapped for a job of teaching electronics in the Bird Cage at Devens. Not long after starting that job I got the opportunity to become an IBM CE for the ASA. After a stint at IBM school in Endicott and Poughkeepsie, NY I was assigned to USASA HQ Europe in Frankfurt. I worked for a year there in the data processing center on the top floor of the IG Farben Building. Our data processing unit was transferred to Rothwesten in the Summer of 1959 and I worked there outside the Operations Building in some shelters mounted on trucks. I believe that my MOS was 206.10, Cryptanalytic Equipment Repair. I left the army in the Summer of 1960. (When I was in, no 206 had ever re-enlisted - IBM had a job ready for them when they got out. The ASA ran a new group through the IBM school every year or so.)"   Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

That's really interesting that former Army Security Agency guys went right to work for IBM when they got out. Again, it raises the question about for whom exactly were Brewer's two mysterious "IBM men" working? IBM? Army Security Agency? The CIA? Dual loyalties - on IBM's payroll, but working for the CIA or the ASA maybe?

Anyway, as I suggested earlier, IBM probably had a legitimate reason to liaise with the Dallas Police - IBM was helping police departments all across the country to computerize their fingerprint files in 1963 and 1964. 

OK, but none of that explains the presence of these two men in Hardy's Shoes for 15 months before the assassination!

The only thing that makes sense to me is that these men were intelligence spotters/recruiters/handlers and were using Johnny Brewer as some kind of source. (Remember, the hunt for "Reds" in Dallas in 1963 was not limited to the lunatic fringe - it extended to the top of Dallas society! D.H. Byrd, Jack Cason and Roy Truly were all actively looking for subversives, yet they hired one (albeit a fake one) who worked right under their noses!)

 By pretending he could not remember the IBM men's names, not only did Johnny Brewer protect them, but also himself. If he gave them up, he would be useless as a future source of information. 

Many informants get some satisfaction from being a source to the authorities - it gives them a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning. The KGB noted this phenomenon in its own people long ago. So too did the Gestapo: ordinary Germans and Russians would line up in droves to report on their neighbors to the authorities. In most cases, no coercion was needed at all!

I am sure that we Americans are no different. Many people would gladly rat out others for a chance to get an in with the authorities.

[Jim Hargrove]

Still trying to catch up here, so forgive me if this has already been asked and answered, but is there anyone who can confirm Brewer’s bizarre story of the “two IBM men?”  Tommy Rowe (who also worked at Hardy’s Shoes) or anyone else?  Frankly, I see little reason to believe this story.

I don’t think Brewer saw either Oswald going into the theater.  He claimed to hear the police reports (which described a subject in a white jacket and white shirt) yet somehow connected this with the long-sleeve brown-shirted Classic Oswald®?  He allegedly even told Postal the suspect was wearing a brown shirt.   Michah M. wrote a nice summary of some of the other problems with Brewer early in this thread. The whole Brewer tale never made any sense.

Nor, to me, does the saga of these “IBM men” sound the least bit credible, other than as a convenient excuse for Brewer’s role in capturing “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Just my opinion, but it seems to me as likely as anything else that Brewer just made them up.  Again, does anyone know of any confirmation about these mysterious “IBM men?”

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Still trying to catch up here, so forgive me if this has already been asked and answered, but is there anyone who can confirm Brewer’s bizarre story of the “two IBM men?”  Tommy Rowe (who also worked at Hardy’s Shoes) or anyone else?  Frankly, I see little reason to believe this story.

Jim,

 

It was the utter bizarrness of the story that piqued my interest.

Why two IBM men?

He could easily have said, "Two government agents, or two FBI guys, or even two guys from the auto body shop down the street".

Was there an IBM office or store or data processing center nearby?

Didn't these guys have jobs? How could they afford to " just come in and kill time and lounge around."?

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Still trying to catch up here, so forgive me if this has already been asked and answered, but is there anyone who can confirm Brewer’s bizarre story of the “two IBM men?”  Tommy Rowe (who also worked at Hardy’s Shoes) or anyone else?  Frankly, I see little reason to believe this story.

I don’t think Brewer saw either Oswald going into the theater.  He claimed to hear the police reports (which described a subject in a white jacket and white shirt) yet somehow connected this with the long-sleeve brown-shirted Classic Oswald®?  He allegedly even told Postal the suspect was wearing a brown shirt.   Michah M. wrote a nice summary of some of the other problems with Brewer early in this thread. The whole Brewer tale never made any sense.

Nor, to me, does the saga of these “IBM men” sound the least bit credible, other than as a convenient excuse for Brewer’s role in capturing “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Just my opinion, but it seems to me as likely as anything else that Brewer just made them up.  Again, does anyone know of any confirmation about these mysterious “IBM men?”

Jim,

Watch the clip I posted yesterday of Vincent Bugliosi questioning Brewer in the 1986 televised "trial" of "Oswald." 

Note that just as Brewer was about to describe what happened after he stepped out of his store and watched (who?) walk into the Texas Theater, Bugliosi cut him off with the pre-emptory statement "Thereupon you proceeded to the theater", to which Brewer (taking the hint) then began to describe his interaction with Julia Postal.

Why did that matter?

Because, as Brewer confessed in his 1996 interview with Ian Griggs, Brewer did not immediately walk down to the Texas Theater. No, instead he returned to the shoe store where (as I explained yesterday), he then conversed with the two "IBM men" who so helpfully closed up the place for him!

Brewer strongly hinted that his trip to the theater and his subsequent actions were the result of prompting by the two mysterious men at Hardy's! He all but confessed it! (Read my post on this point.)

Who could they have been but some kind of contacts/handlers for Brewer?

Nothing else makes sense.After reading and listening to Brewer's first-hand accounts, I don't believe he made the whole thing up out of thin air. I think it is more likely than not that someone (BUT NOT "OSWALD"!) poked his head into Hardy's for a moment around 1:30.  I bet Brewer largely did what he famously claimed to do, but as we all know, there was something fishy about his rush to call the DPD. In his interview with Ian Griggs, Johnny Brewer all but admitted that he had been put up to calling the cops. 

So what was he hiding?

The two men in Hardy's. The two men that he had known and interacted with for fifteen months. The two men about whom no one wanted to ask any questions, and of whom Vincent Bugiliosi was extremely anxious to exclude from Brewer's testimony in 1986!

 

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

Also, it has long been apparent to me that the Warren Commission did not want to dwell on the fact that "Oswald" had been a customer at Hardy's Shoes and was known to (and remembered by!) Johnny Brewer. "Oswald" was not only not a stranger, he was someone that Brewer specifically remembered as a "jerk." 

Yet as soon as Brewer began to describe this in 1964, David Belin changed the topic. (The Warren Commission could not ignore this completely, but they chose to ignore the clear implications.)

Why did it matter?

Because that would have raised the obvious question that (as far as I know) has not been asked:

Since Brewer knew and remembered "Oswald" from before, why didn't Brewer recognize him when "Oswald" (supposedly) stepped into the lobby of Hardy's Shoes?

Answer: Because that man wasn't "Oswald".

That's why Brewer hinted at being given a description. That's why Brewer didn't notice "Oswald" when he scanned the theater's (supposedly empty) balcony and main floor. He wasn't looking for "Oswald", he was looking for the man who stepped into the lobby of Hardy's Shoes. 

Now Tommy Rowe's mysterious statement to his family members makes sense: Brewer didn't point out "Oswald" to the cops because he didn't know that's who he was supposed to accuse! But Tommy Rowe knew - and he pointed "Oswald" out to the cops (at least according to what he later told family members, who later told a third party, who later told Penn Jones. Jones was never able to confirm any details from Tommy Rowe himself because the whole Rowe family refused to meet with him ever.)

Now too the role of the "IBM" men becomes even more apparent: they sicced Johnny Brewer (and maybe Tommy Rowe?) on to the Hardy's Shoe lobby man, whose role was to provide a reason to call the DPD. 

This scenario also explains why Brewer's affadavit for the Dallas Police was not taken until December 6, 1963. It wasn't immediately apparent to the DPD that Brewer's story was going to be needed. After all, they didn't go rushing to the Texas Theater as the result of Julia Postal's call, they went because of some call from someone (the IBM men maybe/probably/certainly?) about a man entering the Texas Theater armed with a rifle or a shotgun!

 

[Steve Thomas]

In his essay in the Reopen the Kennedy Case Forum in 2016, Hasan Yusuf makes the case that the two IBM men in the store were Igor Vaganov, and Robert

Radelat/Radelet.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1124-brewer-s-ibm-friends

 

Hasan also wrote,

<quote>

" What I also find interesting is the information contained in the following article by Robert E. Doran:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16254&search=Bill_Stage+hypnotist+Dallas+Air+force+base#relPageId=15&tab=page

Doran writes that two of his Air Force “buddies” were hypnotised by a professional stage hypnotist from Dallas named “Bill” who was brought along by a mysterious IBM instructor. The reason I find this interesting is because William Crowe (aka Bill DeMar), who was the master of ceremonies at the Carousel Club, was evidently involved with hypnosis."

" This whole idea of Robert Radelat as one of the IBM men in Brewer’s shoe store is really beginning to fascinate me. There was a Guido Radelat from Cuba who was a member of the anti-Castro organisation, JURE, and who “specialized in writing computer programs.”


http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=91781&search=Guido_Radelat#relPageId=31&tab=page

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/01/AR2010080103221_2.html

So we have Robert Radelat who it is said was working for IBM in November, 1963, and we have a Guido Radelat who was a member of an anti-Castro organisation who “specialized in writing computer programs.” Were they related? I sure would like to find out if they were."

<end quote>

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

In his essay in the Reopen the Kennedy Case Forum in 2016, Hasan Yusuf makes the case that the two IBM men in the store were Igor Vaganov, and Robert

Radelat/Radelet.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1124-brewer-s-ibm-friends

 

Hasan also wrote,

<quote>

" What I also find interesting is the information contained in the following article by Robert E. Doran:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16254&search=Bill_Stage+hypnotist+Dallas+Air+force+base#relPageId=15&tab=page

Doran writes that two of his Air Force “buddies” were hypnotised by a professional stage hypnotist from Dallas named “Bill” who was brought along by a mysterious IBM instructor. The reason I find this interesting is because William Crowe (aka Bill DeMar), who was the master of ceremonies at the Carousel Club, was evidently involved with hypnosis."

" This whole idea of Robert Radelat as one of the IBM men in Brewer’s shoe store is really beginning to fascinate me. There was a Guido Radelat from Cuba who was a member of the anti-Castro organisation, JURE, and who “specialized in writing computer programs.”


http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=91781&search=Guido_Radelat#relPageId=31&tab=page

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/01/AR2010080103221_2.html

So we have Robert Radelat who it is said was working for IBM in November, 1963, and we have a Guido Radelat who was a member of an anti-Castro organisation who “specialized in writing computer programs.” Were they related? I sure would like to find out if they were."

<end quote>

Steve Thomas

Steve,

I read that analysis by Hasan and dismissed it for the simple reason that Brewer's "IBM" men had been known to him since August of 1962, and Vaganov did not arrive in Dallas (whatever one may think his role was on 11/22/63) until shortly before the assassination.

Therefore, according to the evidence available to us, Vaganov could not have been one of the IBM men.

It's true that Radelat was a CAP member who may have known "Oswald" back in Louisiana in the 1950's, but that doesn't have much relevance to Hardy's Shoes in 1962/63. However, if Radelat was working for IBM in Dallas in the fall of 1963 in some capacity, then it is possible that his past CAP membership may have made him useful to authorities interested in ferreting out Castro sympathizers/lefties/commies. And therefore, it is just possible (completely unproven but possible) he had approached Brewer to enlist Brewer's help.

But clearly, much, much more evidence is needed on Radelat before we arrive at even any tentative conclusions.

[Jim Hargrove]

Perhaps people other than me should continue this line of thought because I just don’t have much faith at all in Brewer as a witness. We could speculate endlessly about what he meant by the “IBM men,” but I’d be just as inclined to guess they were a stand-in for Tommy Rowe, who would certainly be more likely to have the ability to close up the shoe shop.  Before he got enmeshed in this whole mess, I’ll bet Brewer had no idea how close his underling was to Ruby, or how pivotal Ruby was in the assassination plot.  

This is all just a wild guess on my part, of course, but so is everything else regarding the two “IBM men,” at least in my opinion.  None of us are getting any younger, especially me, and I’d rather concentrate on matters that have a greater chance of being understood with at least some modest degree of certainty.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:05 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I'd never read the stuff about Tommy Rowe before it came up in this thread.   It's interesting about him claiming to be the one to point out Oswald to the police.  To me it's even more interesting that he was close friends with Ruby, then moved into Ruby's apartment for a year after Ruby was arrested.  Throw in him working for Brewer who remembered Oswald buying shoes from him previously and being surly and this all gets interesting enough to keep looking.  

Regarding the part about Rowe moving into Ruby's apartment after his arrest I'd never heard of this story from Roger Craig about guns, ammo and grenades in Ruby's storage shed behind his apartment.  Until I saw Micha's link.  

 

As Craig unknowingly alludes to in a way in the last paragraph, do Ruby's now known previous gun running activities lend credence to the possibility of this story being true?  Craig does state his source was an officer in the Intelligence Bureau of the DPD.

I don't know how quick this find might have happened.  But I'd think early on he'd want someone "close" to watch over all his personal stuff.  I've read the stories that he thought he'd be seen as a hero and out in no time (with the promise of high powered legal assistance, from unnamed sources).

 

On 8/10/2019 at 12:06 AM, Ron Bulman said:

I'm about a third of the way through the John Armstrong article on Jack Ruby and gun running provided in Jim Hargrove's post one minute after the one above.  What timing we have Jim, no posts in 10 hours then this happens.  Seems to me the post's relate.  I was not aware of more than a couple or three references about gun running going back to 1957-8.  The depth John documents going back to the early 50's is quite enlightening for me.  For me it enhances the chance of authenticity regarding Roger Craig's second hand knowledge, reputedly by him from a reliable source, that in essence, Ruby was still running guns in 1963.

Craig was given his fair share, maybe more (?) of attention to discretization in the aftermath.  

The evidence that Ruby ran guns is really quite substantial.  Does anyone here believe he could have run guns to Cuba during two different decades without attracting notice from, among other authorities, the CIA?

And yet Ruby wasn't prosecuted!  For similar offenses, Robert McKeown, Carlos Prio and others were charged, but why not Ruby?  He was apparently protected.  Why?

 

[David Boylan]

Jim, 

Ruby must have been an informant. 🙂

Strange mix there. McKeown knew Ruby, Oswald, Prio, Hernandez, Davis and Castro.