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"Oswald" to Soviets: "...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters."


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In another thread, Steve Thomas wrote this:

 

Quote

 

Jim,

 

I'd still like to know whose application for Soviet citizenship was denied in 1961.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In that letter, Dobrynin lays out why the Soviet Government rejected the citizenship application of Harvey Lee Oswald.

Documents submitted by Dobrynin on May 5, 1964:

CE 985 pp. 404+

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=418&tab=page

There is an application for a non-citizen alien identity card, which was granted on January 4, 1960, 1961, and 1962, but no application for citizenship, and no correspondence from the Soviet Government denying such an application.

So whose application for citizenship was denied?

 

Steve Thomas


 

As I was reading through the pages of CE 985 that Steve pointed to, one thing jumped off the page to me.  In a short “autobiography” allegedly written in “Oswald’s” own hand as part of an application for employment at the Minsk radio plant, he wrote:

“...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters.”  The rest of the paragraph pretty much matches the biography of Classic Oswald®.  Take a look at the page:  
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

I’m sure WC loyalists will just say “Oswald” was playing games with the Soviets, but the odd thing about this is that the statement is probably true for the Russian-speaking Oswald.  Anyone have any other thoughts, or thoughts on the questions Steve raised?

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54 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In another thread, Steve Thomas wrote this:

 

As I was reading through the pages of CE 985 that Steve pointed to, one thing jumped off the page to me.  In a short “autobiography” allegedly written in “Oswald’s” own hand as part of an application for employment at the Minsk radio plant, he wrote:

“...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters.”  The rest of the paragraph pretty much matches the biography of Classic Oswald®.  Take a look at the page:  
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

I’m sure WC loyalists will just say “Oswald” was playing games with the Soviets, but the odd thing about this is that the statement is probably true for the Russian-speaking Oswald.  Anyone have any other thoughts, or thoughts on the questions Steve raised?

Didn’t he send his mother and brother letters from Russia? If so I’d imagine the Govt read all of his mail and would have seen he lied on the application. 

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John,

Yes!  I had forgotten that John A. wrote about this in H&L.  He wrote, “In an autobiography submitted to the factory Oswald wrote, ‘My parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters,’ which was not a true statement for "Lee Harvey Oswald.”

A couple of pages later, he wrote about his 1998 interview with Ana Ziger in Buenos Aires.  Ana's father managed the Minsk radio plant where Oswald worked and he socialized often with the Ziger family, especially Ana and her sister.  

Ana recalled, "Oswald was not an affectionate person, was not open, and did not express himself often or at all. He had a glassy look, didn't like to talk much, and said little about himself. One time he told us that he had no relatives--no mother, no father, no brothers, no sisters. Another time he said he had a brother and a sister. Years later, after the assassination, we learned about his mother in Texas, but we never knew much about his (personal) life."6 [H&L p. 287]

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6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

As I was reading through the pages of CE 985 that Steve pointed to, one thing jumped off the page to me.  In a short “autobiography” allegedly written in “Oswald’s” own hand as part of an application for employment at the Minsk radio plant, he wrote:

“...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters.”  The rest of the paragraph pretty much matches the biography of Classic Oswald®.  Take a look at the page:  
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

I’m sure WC loyalists will just say “Oswald” was playing games with the Soviets, but the odd thing about this is that the statement is probably true for the Russian-speaking Oswald.  Anyone have any other thoughts, or thoughts on the questions Steve raised?

Jim,

 

On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided. (Photos not included in the documents)

 

This document spells out the details of a non-citizen identity card (Series P-311479)

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf

 

One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=441&tab=page

 

On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=430&tab=page

This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.

 

 

On January 4, 1962 Lee Harvey Oswald applied for an an extension for his non-citizen alien identity card. As part of his application he listed his mother as Margaret and his brother as Robert. “Margaret's” address is listed as P.O. Box 982 Vernon.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=434&tab=page

This identity card was granted an extension until July 2, 1962.

On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is hired January 1, 1960

"Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired two weeks later on January 13, 1960.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

Harvey Lee Oswald's application for citizenship is denied

Whole lot of funny business going on over there in ol' Russia land.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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Jim and Steve,

Thanks for posting a link to this document. 

oswald-note-labeled-autobiography-1.jpg

It helps understanding a problem I had with looking at photos in Oswald's 201 file.  These photos suggested that Oswald was serving with the American Army rather than being in the Marines.  It was a problem I couldn't get a handle on and simply dismissed it as something questionable. 

And, it screws up one of my notions that Lee Oswald is responsible for the filming of various things and places while in the Marine Corps.  This letter was probably written by Harvey, the Russian speaking twin of the Oswald duo.  This leads one to believe that Harvey was the one taking all of those photos of the American Army in Japan and the Philippines.  

Harvey did say he was knowledgeable of photographic techniques and would prove the BYPs false.  I would suppose as agents both were trained in photography and that may help explain the Keflavik photos for one Oswald coming back from Russia (Lee) and another coming back with his wife and daughter by boat (Harvey). 

I still may be confused on this and any help straightening this out would be appreciated.

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One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=441&tab=page page 426 of CE 985

 

On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&tab=page

 

 

Is this date of January 1, 1960 a mistake, or is Lee Harvey Oswald certified as an assembler ten days before he even applied for the job?

 

Whole lot of funny business...

 

Steve Thomas

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To Steve Thomas,

Megathanks as always for this fascinating research.  It sure sounds as if the Soviets were tracking a “Harvey Lee Oswald” and a “Lee Harvey Oswald” regarding employment at the Minsk radio plant, but it is virtually impossible for me to believe that two American expats with such similar names could possibly have been at the same employer at the same time without creating a major ruckus.  Can you chalk this up to something more interesting than bureaucratic snafus?

That said, once when I was visiting John A. I skimmed through a single roll of microfilm from his set of the  FBI "Series 2" microfilm series from UMI.  This single roll, part of a 12 or 15 roll collection John had purchased, contained Kennedy Assassination documents not only from the FBI, but from other U.S. agencies and some foreign governments.  It looks to me that EVERYTHING from everyone regarding the assassination was filtered through the FBI. I don’t totally trust anything in the collection, which is a shame.

 

15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided. (Photos not included in the documents)

This document spells out the details of a non-citizen identity card (Series P-311479)

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf

Aline Mosby interviewed Harvey Oswald in Moscow on 10/31/59. 

But when Harvey responded to specific questions about his background he often made mistakes, which were unknown to Mosby. For example, (Harvey) Oswald told Mosby he was 20 when he was discharged from the Marines, yet he was 19. He gave his most recent address as 4936 Collinwood, yet he hadn't lived at that address since 1956 and used his "mother's" address of 3124 W 5th on his Marine discharge papers.25 Oswald told Mosby, "My mother works in shops mostly in Fort Worth," but "Marguerite" had not worked since her alleged work-related injury at King Candy in December 1958. (H&L 269)

 

15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

One week later, on January 11, 1960 he submitted an application for employment at the Minsk Radio and TV plant. On his application, he wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=441&tab=page

Indeed!  He apparently made the same slip when talking to Ana Ziger.

 

15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=430&tab=page

This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.

On January 4, 1962 Lee Harvey Oswald applied for an an extension for his non-citizen alien identity card. As part of his application he listed his mother as Margaret and his brother as Robert. “Margaret's” address is listed as P.O. Box 982 Vernon.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=434&tab=page

This identity card was granted an extension until July 2, 1962.

Marguerite did live on a Vernon, Texas ranch owned by a Mr. Phillips starting around August 1, 1961. She worked for a number of different people in and around Vernon until she moved to 316 East Donnell in Crowell, Texas in May of 1962. (H&L 362, 363 & 398)

 

15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is hired January 1, 1960

"Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired two weeks later on January 13, 1960.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

Harvey Lee Oswald's application for citizenship is denied

Whole lot of funny business going on over there in ol' Russia land.

 

Steve Thomas

 

This is just bizarre.  If memory serves, John A. writes about some of this in H&L, but I don't remember the details.   I'll have to take another look.  Thanks again for this research!

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To John B....

Thanks.  Would you be kind enough to re-summarize your thoughts about the Iceland airport photo in the CIA’s Oswald collection, or just point to a previous post?  If you could provide a link to the full collection I’d really appreciate it!!

Jim,

 

This gives some info on what you were requesting.  In your thread listed below this came up from Jeff Carter giving me a tip on info.

NEW! Drop-dead visual proof that the rifle and scope in the “Backyard photos” (CE-133-A, B, C) is different from “Oswald’s” so-called rifle and scope (CE 139)

By Jim Hargrove, June 29 in JFK Assassination Debate

 

(Pages 4 through 8 has posts listing some of the things I was thinking.)

 

Jeff Carter   

Posted July 2 (edited)

  On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:10 AM, John Butler said:

Jim,

 

Are these photos and negatives available to be viewed?  It would be interesting to see what they are.  Alan J. Weberman, if memory serves, had photos developed from the film in one of Oswald's cameras.  They were interesting showing things that the WC didn't see.  I wonder about the others?

John - have a look at Commission Document 443 and also CIA 201 File Volume 32 Item 21 for photos/images from Oswald/Paines. 

Edited July 3 by Jeff Carter

 

The Mary Ferrell Foundation has this info also

 

mary-ferrell.jpg

 

This should get you into the things I was using for posts in your thread.

 

If you need me to summarize this I'll take a shot at it.

Edited by John Butler
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lho-dutch-plane-keflavik-2.jpg

These photos were in the 201 file.  The couple in the left hand photo looks like Lee and Marina.  But, the photo is so poor they could be anybody.

keflavik-lee-oswald-maybe.jpg

The same goes with an enlargement of the two.  They could be anybody.

However, the image of the man pointed to with the red arrow is very reminiscent of an Oswald.  The resemblance is in the hair and shape of the head.  My art sense of comparison says there may be something here, but that is not scientific or anywhere close to that. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To Steve Thomas,

Megathanks as always for this fascinating research.  It sure sounds as if the Soviets were tracking a “Harvey Lee Oswald” and a “Lee Harvey Oswald” regarding employment at the Minsk radio plant, but it is virtually impossible for me to believe that two American expats with such similar names could possibly have been at the same employer at the same time without creating a major ruckus.  Can you chalk this up to something more interesting than bureaucratic snafus?

 

Jim,

 

I have been tracking the known references I have found of Harvey Lee Oswald. So far, I have 29 of them.

This is over and above the Harvey and Lee research that you and John Armstrong have done.

I have tried to trace the earliest reference I can, and from what I've found, it seems to be coming out of Russia of all places.

I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community.

I am with Peter Dale Scott on this one:

Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia
An Unauthorized History from the Kennedy Assassination

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald-in-russia.htm

This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.9

A consistent pattern of behavior in these agencies since the assassination has been the tendency to suppress references to "Harvey Lee Oswald," and replace them by the more standard "Lee Harvey Oswald."10

9 . For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49.

10. Ibid. especially pp. 118-19.

 

I think the Harvey Lee Oswald is the Oswald, comma, Harvey Lee (Oswald, Harvey Lee); who registered at the 1026 N. Beckely roominghouse as O.H. Lee and who Earlene Roberts and Arthur Johnson said the police came looking for, some half an hour before Lee Harvey was even arrested at the Texas Theater.

This at least one hour before the Detectives were dispatched from Police Headquarters at 2:40PM.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/johnso_a.htm

Mr. BELIN. How long had you been at the house when the officers arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, probably 30 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best I remember.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get home that day from your work?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little bit after.

WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm

 

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that?
Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, "No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a year.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No---he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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To John Butler,

Thanks, but I had a little trouble understanding your post.  I was hoping you could provide a link to the CIA collection of Oswald photos you were looking at when you found the Iceland Airport images.  Did I miss it?  Do you have reason to believe all the pictures were related to "Oswald?"

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6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

I have been tracking the known references I have found of Harvey Lee Oswald. So far, I have 29 of them.

This is over and above the Harvey and Lee research that you and John Armstrong have done.

I have tried to trace the earliest reference I can, and from what I've found, it seems to be coming out of Russia of all places.

I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community.

I am with Peter Dale Scott on this one:

Steve,

There is a U.S. Harvey Lee Oswald reference dating back to 1959.  It is on the Dependency Affidavit the Russian-speaking Oswald submitted at MACS-9 in Santa Ana, CA.    Near the top of the form is “OSWALD, Lee Harvey,” but at bottom left is “Oswald, Harvey Lee.”  It may be just an error, of course, but the two names are clearly typed on two different devices.

59-16.jpg

 

Just checking, but are you aware of the Harvey Lee Oswald reports relating to CIA agent Donald P. Norton, who said that in the fall of 1962 he gave a case full of money to a man he knew as “Harvey Lee,” who he said was nearly identical to LHO’s newspaper pictures; and of the “Harvey Lee Oswald” who apparently was interviewed by Francis Martello in August 1963; and, in addition, John A’s assertion that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appears five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statements signed and submitted to the WC on May 18, 1964?

It sounds as if you have compiled many more examples.  I’d love to see your full list.

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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   Jim,

For some reason or another this editor won't accept a link to Mary Ferrell's page on this.

So, use this search term in google;   CIA 201 File Volume 32 Item 21

And, that will take you to Mary Ferrell's page on the Oswald 201 file.  Go down the list to Volume 32 and item 21 and you will have access to the 448 photos supposedly taken from the Oswalds/Paine's garage. 

Are all these photos related?  I would think so.  The Keflavik photos are amongst them and I can think of no other reason for them to be there then being in the group of photos that Oswald had stored in Ruth Paine's garage.  There are photos in this collection that are a bit strange suggesting an Oswald was on the Black Sea vacationing (?), Italy, with photos of Rome, and other places.  There was even photos of New Orleans, but I couldn't determine if they were from pre-1963 or during the summer of 1963.  There were several photos showing the US Army suggesting that the things Oswald said about serving with the Army in Japan and the Philippines were true. 

The FBI had these photos first early on and what they did with them early on is open to conjecture.  Did they pass through the FBI photo lab?  They were in there possession from Nov. 1963 to March, 1964 when shown to Marina.    They did show them to Marina Oswald March 19, 1964 for her comments on the photos.  They results were sent to the CIA:

letter-from-hoover-to-CIA-to-explain-448

Other than this I don't have a clue to their authenticity.

 

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