Who was Mrs Robert Reid?

[Pat Speer]

Why I believe Oswald was in the domino room.

 

From chapter 4 at patspeer.com

Agent Bookhout's report on Oswald's interrogation, let's recall, did not claim Oswald had said he'd eaten lunch with Jarman and Norman, as presented by Capt. Fritz. It said: "Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room of the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two negro employees walking through the room in this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called 'Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall, but whom he would be able to recognize." Perhaps, then, Oswald had seen Jarman and Norman not when most assume he claimed he'd seen them--when he first came down for lunch--but later, when they came back in the building and went back upstairs. I mean, that only makes sense. If the police ask you who can vouch that you weren't at the scene of a crime, you tell them the names of the LAST people who might remember seeing you somewhere else, and not those who saw you 30 minutes or more before the crime occurred. 

With this in mind, then, it seems a bit of a coincidence that, according to Jarman's testimony, there were "too many people standing on the stairway" in front of the building when he and Norman decided to go back inside and view the motorcade from an upstairs window, and that he and Norman had thereuponre-entered the building by its north entrance. In doing so, by golly, they would have passed directly in front of the open door to the domino room, where Oswald claimed he was sitting at the time of the shooting.

Here, see for yourself. The diagram below has been cropped from Warren Commission Exhibit 1061, the Warren Commission's diagram for the first floor of the school book depository. The domino room is on the right, in the northwest corner of the building. A toilet is to its left. The north entrance from the loading dock is the door to the left of this toilet. From the street, one can reach this entrance in two ways. There are steps from the sidewalk on the east side of the building that lead up onto the dock and then an overhead door just a few feet from the entrance by the toilet. And there are steps from where the trucks park that lead to a door cut at an angle to the loading dock, that is also quite close to the entrance by the toilet. 
 

Should that not suffice, moreover, there's an FBI photo taken for the specific purpose of depicting the relationship between the north entrance and domino room. (I've searched in vain for a memo indicating who, specifically, ordered this picture, and can only assume it was Warren Commission counsel Joseph Ball and David Belin, the men tasked with establishing Oswald's guilt. Now, if this is so, well, then, it more than suggests they knew full well that Jarman and Norman passed right in front of the open door to the domino room.)

In any event, this photo is presented below. (It can be found in the commission's records in CD496, p 19) The rear entrance from the loading dock is the door on the left and the door to the domino room is the door on the right. 
 

Let's now note that Jarman, in his 3-24-64 testimony, claimed that he and Norman re-entered the building via its north or rear entrance "about 12:20...between 12:20 and 12:25"...

Well, then, who's to say that Oswald wasn't sitting in the domino room when Jarman and Norman came in the back door? And that he wasn't still sitting there five to ten minutes later, as shots were being fired upstairs?

Certainly not the Warren Commission... They were supposed to get at the facts. And reveal them to the public. And yet right here is a total major fact that (if we are to give them the benefit of the doubt) eluded them, and went unreported...

Let this soak in...

Jarman and Norman were the only two depository employees to admit coming in the north entrance when Oswald claimed he was sitting right by this entrance, and they were the only two depository employees Oswald recalled seeing while he was sitting there. 

What are the odds? 

I'll tell you the odds. The odds are that Oswald was indeed where he said he was, when he said he was.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

Then what did he do....ah yes.

[John Iacoletti]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:52 AM, Denis Morissette said:

Who “determined” that one of the ladies in the Wiegman film is Mrs. Reid??? Was it a process of elimination? I doubt that this lady is in the color photo made public by a certain banned member. I’m not allowed to mention his name and I cannot post the color photo since I don’t have the permission of that banned individual.

You don't need his permission -- he doesn't own it.

 

[Larry Hancock]

Well said Pat...you can put that one in stone and set it outside the TSBD...

[Guest]

Regarding the "Domino Room Alibi" -

We know Oswald was an incredible, bald-faced l-i-a-r in almost every conceivable situation – even, as Marina chided him, when the truth would have served him just as well.  It’s no more surprising that he would've claimed to be eating lunch in the domino room than that he would've claimed (as he did) to have never owned a rifle or to have claimed that his mother was dead and he had no siblings (as he did in Minsk).

If Oswald wasn't going to confess to sitting on the sixth floor with a rifle in his hand, a lunchroom was probably the most plausible noontime alibi.  And he certainly would have known that he had in fact been seen downstairs, albeit not at the time of the assassination.  It isn't implausible that he would have made sure he was seen downstairs, thereby laying the groundwork for an alibi.

The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman.  Almost every day, in fact.  But very seldom by Oswald.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald brought or bought any lunch on November 22nd, let alone a cheese sandwich and an apple.

Fritz's notes stated "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report stated Oswald "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report stated Oswald "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report stated Oswald "said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as ‘Junior,’ a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

(Hosty’s note that Bart reproduces has Oswald getting his drink from the second-floor lunchroom before returning to the domino room to eat lunch but says nothing about Jarman and Norman.)

Thus, two sources report Oswald as saying he ate with Jarman and Norman.  One says they “walked through the room.”  One says they “came in.”

Thus, three of four sources indicate Jarman and Norman were actually in the domino room with Oswald.

It appears that Fritz’s “came in” note is being interpreted as meaning Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they “came in” the loading dock door at about 12:25 while he was eating in the domino room.  In light of the other three sources, this interpretation is completely unwarranted and seems unlikely given the eating arrangements in the domino room and the sight line from there to the loading dock entrance.

Some CTers suggest that Oswald actually saw Jarman and Norman through the domino room window when they were on the sidewalk outside the loading dock, which doesn’t fit any of the four sources.  (And what about conspiracy saint Carolyn Arnold, who decided years after the event that she had seen Oswald eating in the second-floor lunchroom?  Oops.)

Query:  Why would the nefarious Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley (and Hosty) even have reported these statements by Oswald?  Why would they not have made sure their notes and reports included no possible alibi for Oswald?  Again, we see the familiar game of the conspirators being geniuses at steps 1-3-5 and dolts at steps 2-4-8.

Moreover (as DVP would point out if he were here), this interpretation views the Domino Room Alibi in a vacuum and ignores a boatload of inconvenient evidence, including Oswald’s curious trip to Irving on Thursday, Frazier’s testimony that Oswald did not bring a lunch, the existence of the sixth floor sniper’s nest with Oswald’s rifle in it, the complete lack of evidence of any other gunmen in the building or being observed leaving the building, the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald’s inexplicable actions after the assassination, and Oswald’s failure, despite multiple opportunities, to scream to reporters and everyone else within earshot “I was eating in the first floor lunchroom, for God’s sake!!!  After that I was standing on the front steps with Shelley and all the other employees!!!”

For this alibi to work, an almost incredible number of people from diverse walks of life would have to have been conspirators or accessories after the fact.  Which, of course, they were – if one is neck-deep in the Conspiracy Game.  But even then, you’re left with all of the other evidence that would become inexplicable if the alibi were true.

Put the Domino Room Alibi outside the TSBD if you like – but I probably wouldn’t put it in stone.  Maybe you can hire a homeless guy to hold a cardboard sign?

I previously caused a furor by referencing some of the peer-reviewed literature on the conspiracy mindset.  I won't wade into those waters again, but it would be very enlightening for you to study some of the professional literature (of which there is a mountain) regarding the psychology and unreliability of eyewitness testimony and specifically recollections of highly traumatic events.  You will learn that the wildly conflicting stories and timelines, far from being evidence of conspiracies and lies, are exactly what we would expect if the witnesses were telling the truth to the best of their ability.  As new member Sean DeGrilla points out in his recent book Malcontent, which I did buy and read, Oswald's words and actions are exactly what we would expect from someone who was guilty.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Guest

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Well said Pat...you can put that one in stone and set it outside the TSBD...

Yes sir!  Along with Bart's note "then went outside to watch the P. Parade".  Right next to the one outside the public has taken the liberty to underline the word "alleged" on.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=KWKSwA96&id=91D7353664788B90633D72CB39058045BC1E01F9&thid=OIP.KWKSwA96QQ16DuyAuhZbTwHaJ4&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2ffqe6kbL.jpg&exph=640&expw=480&q=texas+school+book+depository+plaque&simid=608033463998875350&selectedIndex=20&qpvt=texas+school+book+depository+plaque&ajaxhist=0

[Andrej Stancak]

Agent Hosty's handwritten account of what Lee Oswald told during his very first interrogation is of the strongest value regarding Lee Oswald's whereabouts. First, it is authentic Hosty's note. Second, it was taken as Oswald spoke which is of similar value as a stenographic or tape record. Third, it was taken within half an hour after Oswald's arrest before any communication among the interrogators could have occurred. Of course, other details of Lee's whereabouts were not discussed in this initial interrogation, such as who else could support Lee's alibi. Besides  seeing Jarman and Norman, Lee Oswald also met Eddie Piper around the noon, and Mrs. Sarah Stanton later - that encounter is important because Mrs. Stanton had repeatedly told her relatives that she met Oswald on stairs when he was just going to buy Coke for his lunch. That encounter matches Hosty's note accurately. Mrs. Stanton would have been on her way out about 10 minutes (at least) before the arrival of the motorcade  because Billy Lovelady who came out relatively early saw her through the glass window as she already stood out in the company of Bill Shelley.

Of course, there are also interrogators' report and witness testimonies which are in conflict with the scenario recorded by the FBI agent Hosty. In my view, the cover up kicked in very soon and since Hosty was eliminated from subsequent interrogations, he did not have a chance to attune to the follow-up interrogators' reports. There are good indications that Cpt. Fritz actually wrote his notes using James Bookhout's note as a template (shown by Mr. Murphy in the original Prayer man thread "Oswald leaving the TSBD?").

Thus, we face a situation that almost every aspect of this case is presented in two or more versions from which each can be chosen depending  on which side of the picture one decides to ignore. For instance, who else besides Howard Brennan saw Oswald in the sixth-floor window? And even Brennan's testimony can be interpreted as  confirmation of seeing Oswald in that window or absence of definitive certainty. However, there were eight other witnesses reporting seeing one or two men on the sixth floor and they all claimed seeing someone else, e.g. an elderly Afro-American man with balding hair. The testimonies of this sort, similar to Oswald's whereabouts according to different interrogators' notes, cannot be reconciled. They cannot be all valid at the same time.

It is for this reason that while continuing reading and studying books and articles, I focus my research on visual evidence. In my view, the data pertaining the unknown man standing in the western corner of the doorway in Darnell are sufficient to decide whether this man was Lee Oswald or not. As a better quality copy of Darnell film exists, there is still a hope that a high-quality copy of Darnell will be available to all researchers. This would help in deciding this very important question.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Regarding the "Domino Room Alibi" -

We know Oswald was an incredible, bald-faced l-i-a-r in almost every conceivable situation – even, as Marina chided him, when the truth would have served him just as well.  It’s no more surprising that he would've claimed to be eating lunch in the domino room than that he would've claimed (as he did) to have never owned a rifle or to have claimed that his mother was dead and he had no siblings (as he did in Minsk).

If Oswald wasn't going to confess to sitting on the sixth floor with a rifle in his hand, a lunchroom was probably the most plausible noontime alibi.  And he certainly would have known that he had in fact been seen downstairs, albeit not at the time of the assassination.  It isn't implausible that he would have made sure he was seen downstairs, thereby laying the groundwork for an alibi.

The domino room was in fact, regularly used by both Jarman and Norman.  Almost every day, in fact.  But very seldom by Oswald.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Oswald brought or bought any lunch on November 22nd, let alone a cheese sandwich and an apple.

Fritz's notes stated "two negr. came in.....one Jr. + short negro."

Fritz's report stated Oswald "said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called ‘Junior’ and the other one was a little short man whose name he did not know."

Bookhout's report stated Oswald "recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period."

Kelley's report stated Oswald "said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as ‘Junior,’ a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy."

(Hosty’s note that Bart reproduces has Oswald getting his drink from the second-floor lunchroom before returning to the domino room to eat lunch but says nothing about Jarman and Norman.)

Thus, two sources report Oswald as saying he ate with Jarman and Norman.  One says they “walked through the room.”  One says they “came in.”

Thus, three of four sources indicate Jarman and Norman were actually in the domino room with Oswald.

It appears that Fritz’s “came in” note is being interpreted as meaning Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they “came in” the loading dock door at about 12:25 while he was eating in the domino room.  In light of the other three sources, this interpretation is completely unwarranted and seems unlikely given the eating arrangements in the domino room and the sight line from there to the loading dock entrance.

Some CTers suggest that Oswald actually saw Jarman and Norman through the domino room window when they were on the sidewalk outside the loading dock, which doesn’t fit any of the four sources.  (And what about conspiracy saint Carolyn Arnold, who decided years after the event that she had seen Oswald eating in the second-floor lunchroom?  Oops.)

Query:  Why would the nefarious Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley (and Hosty) even have reported these statements by Oswald?  Why would they not have made sure their notes and reports included no possible alibi for Oswald?  Again, we see the familiar game of the conspirators being geniuses at steps 1-3-5 and dolts at steps 2-4-8.

Moreover (as DVP would point out if he were here), this interpretation views the Domino Room Alibi in a vacuum and ignores a boatload of inconvenient evidence, including Oswald’s curious trip to Irving on Thursday, Frazier’s testimony that Oswald did not bring a lunch, the existence of the sixth floor sniper’s nest with Oswald’s rifle in it, the complete lack of evidence of any other gunmen in the building or being observed leaving the building, the second-floor lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald’s inexplicable actions after the assassination, and Oswald’s failure, despite multiple opportunities, to scream to reporters and everyone else within earshot “I was eating in the first floor lunchroom, for God’s sake!!!  After that I was standing on the front steps with Shelley and all the other employees!!!”

For this alibi to work, an almost incredible number of people from diverse walks of life would have to have been conspirators or accessories after the fact.  Which, of course, they were – if one is neck-deep in the Conspiracy Game.  But even then, you’re left with all of the other evidence that would become inexplicable if the alibi were true.

Put the Domino Room Alibi outside the TSBD if you like – but I probably wouldn’t put it in stone.  Maybe you can hire a homeless guy to hold a cardboard sign?

I previously caused a furor by referencing some of the peer-reviewed literature on the conspiracy mindset.  I won't wade into those waters again, but it would be very enlightening for you to study some of the professional literature (of which there is a mountain) regarding the psychology and unreliability of eyewitness testimony and specifically recollections of highly traumatic events.  You will learn that the wildly conflicting stories and timelines, far from being evidence of conspiracies and lies, are exactly what we would expect if the witnesses were telling the truth to the best of their ability.  As new member Sean DeGrilla points out in his recent book Malcontent, which I did buy and read, Oswald's words and actions are exactly what we would expect from someone who was guilty.

You still won't address the elephant in the room, Lance. Oswald cited two people as possible witnesses to his being in the domino room. And these were the only two people to admit walking by the domino room within ten minutes or so of the shooting. What are the odds? I mean, there must have been 10 regulars who used the domino room, right? And Eddie Piper admitted seeing Oswald at the beginning of the lunch period. But Oswald didn't mention any of them, did he? No, he mentioned Jarman and Norman--the only two men to walk by the domino room in the minutes leading up to the shooting. 

Let me make an analogy. Snoopy's been accused of stealing Linus' blanket from the pumpkin patch. But he says he was at Violet's house watching Lucy make goo-goo eyes at Schroeder, while Schroeder played the piano. Now, neither Lucy nor Schroeder remember seeing Snoopy at Violet's party. But they both admit they were at Violet's party when Linus' blanket was stolen, and that Schroeder was playing the piano at the time.  

I mean, seriously, was this just a lucky guess on Oswald's part? Really? Would you expect a jury to believe this? I mean, I'd love to have seen Bugliosi tackle this. "You see, jury, how Oswald claimed Jarman and Norman as witnesses to his being downstairs, and how they were, in fact, the only people walking past the domino room when Oswald said he was in there. Well, disregard this. We all know he was really up on the sixth floor at this time, quiet as a mouse, putting his rifle together with a dime while a clueless Bonnie Ray Williams ate his chicken sandwich but yards away."  

It just doesn't hold together, Lance. Whether or not he was the shooter, whether or not he was part of a conspiracy, the evidence is quite strong that Oswald came downstairs during his lunch hour--and that Joe Ball and David Belin tried to conceal this from the public. (They claimed Givens was the last to see Oswald before the shooting--and that he saw him on the sixth floor--when it was actually Eddie Piper who last saw Oswald--on the first floor). 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

You still won't address the elephant in the room, Lance. Oswald cited two people as possible witnesses to his being in the domino room. And these were the only two people to admit walking by the domino room within ten minutes or so of the shooting. What are the odds? I mean, there must have been 10 regulars who used the domino room, right? And Eddie Piper admitted seeing Oswald at the beginning of the lunch period. But Oswald didn't mention any of them, did he? No, he mentioned Jarman and Norman--the only two men to walk by the domino room in the minutes leading up to the shooting. 

OK, at least you’ve reduced the odds of Oswald’s inclusion of Jarman and Norman in the Domino Room Alibi to a mere 2 of 10, as opposed to the usual 2 of 75 (i.e., all the TSBD employees).  Jarman had engaged Oswald in two short conversations earlier that morning (the one by the first-floor window being an unlikely detail to insert into cooked-up WC testimony – yes?).  Jarman said he always kept his lunch in the domino room, ate there regularly, and had seen Oswald there on at least a few occasions.  Thus, he was hardly an unlikely person for Oswald to insert into the Domino Room Alibi.

Norman saw Oswald at the first-floor window earlier in the morning and had been on the sixth floor “shooting the breeze” with the floor repair crew.  He likewise kept his lunch in the domino room and actually ate there that day (as did Arce and Dougherty).  He then got together with Jarman, went outside with Jarman, and went up to the fifth floor with Jarman – indicative of at least some friendly relationship.  Thus, it would not have been unlikely for Oswald to insert Norman as well into the Domino Room Alibi.

Eddie Piper?  In his affidavit, he reported Oswald as saying he was going “up” to eat his lunch – consistent with Oswald going up to the sixth floor (where I believe the sniper’s nest had been prepared earlier that morning).  When Piper testified to the WC, however, he wasn’t sure whether Oswald had said “up” or “out.”  Does it seem plausible that the nefarious WC attorneys, who had supposedly coached, badgered and threatened witnesses, would have allowed a barely-educated 56-year-old Black janitor like Piper to make the Domino Room Alibi screamingly more plausible, as opposed to warning him “You said ‘up’ in your affidavit and that’s all we want to hear now, pal”?  They fiendishly inserted Shelley/Lovelady three separate places in Vickie Adams’ transcript, but they dropped the ball that badly with Piper?

The elephant in the room that advocates of the Domino Room Alibi ignore is that Oswald supposedly saying he saw Jarman and Norman come through the door to the loading dock is a complete invention unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.  With three of the sources, two have Oswald saying he ate with Jarman and Norman.  One says they came into the room.  The Domino Room Alibi pretends these sources don’t exist or are fabrications and interprets the bland “came in” in Fritz’s note as meaning “came in through the loading dock door while I was eating in the domino room.”  This interpretation has utterly no foundation and is flatly inconsistent with the other sources.  For some reason you are choosing to make Oswald’s alibi better than anything he actually said (or at least than we have any reason to believe he said).  This is the real elephant in the room.

If Oswald had actually said "I saw Jarman and Norman enter through the loading dock door while I was eating in the domino room," I would agree that this was a game-changer.  But he didn't.  He simply inserted two very likely characters into the Domino Room Alibi for added believability.  Just as with "No, I never owned a rifle" and "My mother is dead and I have no brothers," the Domino Room Alibi was not going to survive even the mildest scrutiny - but that was Oswald.

In my first post I should have emphasized the significance of the second-floor lunchroom encounter.  If it occurred, as I believe it surely did, then Truly and Baker handed Oswald an alibi on a golden platter.  Perhaps Oswald ducked into the lunchroom because he heard Truly and Baker coming up or Adams and Styles coming down or perhaps something else spooked him.  But when it was over, he would have realized “My God, I just encountered Truly and a police officer and survived!  The two best alibi witnesses I could imagine have seen me in the second-floor lunchroom!  Bingo!!!”  Now he buys a coke, strolls out of the TSBD like any other employee, and finds himself out on the street to his utter astonishment.  I frankly don’t think Oswald had any expectation of surviving or any escape plan (hence his note to Marina before the Walker shooting: “If I am alive and taken prisoner …”), but the second-floor lunchroom encounter pretty much wrote the script of the Domino Room Alibi for him.

While we’re on the subject of elephants and unlikely odds, let’s consider Prayer Person – a natural adjunct to the Domino Room Alibi that is predictably alluded to above:

1.  Numerous TSBD employees were on the front steps at the time of the assassination or in the immediate vicinity.  Not everyone recalled everyone else, but their recollections were quite good and paint a solid picture.  Not one person recalled Oswald standing in full view where Prayer Person is standing.  Does it seem plausible that not one person said “Gee, I seem to recall the guy you folks think is the assassin standing right there on the steps with us.  Maybe you should look into that, huh?”  But wait, there’s more …

2.  Of all the photos and films taken that day – or that might have been taken that day – Prayer Person appears in precisely one.  It is pure happenstance that there aren’t 15 photos in which Prayer Person is clearly identifiable.  And in that one photo Prayer Person conveniently appears as such an amorphous blob in the deep shadows that debate continues as to whether said blob is a man or a woman.  Prayer Person could be literally anyone – but, voila, it’s Oswald!  But wait, there’s more …

3.  What conceivable assassination conspiracy would have allowed the patsy who was supposed to be on the sixth floor shooting the President to be standing in full view on the front steps?

Nevertheless, to Prayer Person advocates, items 1-3 are no hindrance at all (precisely because Conspiracy Logic is essentially anti-logic).  But the notion of Oswald inserting Jarman and Norman into his Domino Room Alibi?  Oh, please, that’s completely off the scale of plausibility!  The only plausible explanation - put it in stone - is that Oswald was eating lunch in the domino room.

Of all the aspects of conspiracy theorizing that I regard as laughable, the notion that the TSBD was teeming with conspirators and accessories from Roy Truly to Eddie Piper and everyone in between, while innocent young Oswald was placidly eating a cheese sandwich in the domino room, is one I regard as so self-evidently absurd that I can’t believe intelligent people are even discussing it.  From my experience as a lawyer, this is the sort of explanation people resort to when they are truly (or maybe Truly) desperate.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Guest

[David Josephs]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:22 AM, Pat Speer said:

Jarman and Norman were the only two depository employees to admit coming in the north entrance when Oswald claimed he was sitting right by this entrance, and they were the only two depository employees Oswald recalled seeing while he was sitting there. 

What are the odds?

What are the odds two black men in Texas tell the DPD what they need to hear?

Pat, can you address the following please as it relates to your claims...  I see nothing in what they say to support what you conclude.???

JARMAN does not say he ate lunch in the Domino room Pat....:

Mr. BALL - What did you do there?
Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.
Mr. BILL. You say you ate the rest of it when?
Mr. JARMAN - Walking around on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.

How much more clear does this need to be Pat?  No lunch in the Domino Room, no sitting with Norman in the Domino room (And there's the Dr. Pepper Machine next to the fridge, the case for the empties is leaning against the wall by the stairs

 

Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL - And then what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.

Now why do you supposed BALL wanted them to go THRU the first floor inside the building?  Maybe to support the falsehood that they say Oswald in the Domino room at lunch... but they didn't.  Both men tell us they did not see OSWALD in the Domino Room during lunch....

Now, What does NORMAN say?

Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Not until after
Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time.

So Larry, I'd wait a second on setting this in stone, at least until this testimony is accounted for....

Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator

There are 3 entrances on the NORTH of the TSBD... one right next to the WEST ELEVATOR in fact...  NORMAN makes your argument even worse by claiming to have gone out the front with Jarman....   who, while going out the front door with NORMAN also goes out the back door with JARMAN   

Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?
Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.
Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?
Mr. NORMAN. Junior.
Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?
Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.
Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?
Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.

Furthermore, even if they came in the small door, neither of the men say they saw Oswald during lunch... infact NORMAN says the room had "someone" in it - but no one with which to play dominoes...

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?
Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.
Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?
Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.
Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

 

[David Josephs]

FWIW - what "Oswald said" as opposed to what the FBI/DPD/SS/USPS said he said is two different universes.

DJ

[Denis Morissette]

This is the lady who some say is Mrs. Reid with Leavelle. This is on November 24. I only know of her visit on November 23. I've just done a screen capture of the film showing the lady.

 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

FWIW - what "Oswald said" as opposed to what the FBI/DPD/SS/USPS said he said is two different universes.

DJ

But the problem is, even in Harvey & Lee World, you don't know what Oswald said.  So you speculate that he said something entirely different from what multiple documents report he said, and what you speculate he said always conveniently fits your pet conspiracy theory.  It goes beyond Conspiracy Logic.  It's a sort of Conspiracy Alchemy.

At the risk of stating the painfully obvious, the same question I posed in relation to Prayer Person applies to the Domino Room Alibi:  What sort of conspiracy goes to all the trouble of framing a patsy, including the planting of a rifle traceable to him on the sixth floor, and then allows Mr. Patsy to be eating a cheese sandwich in the domino room moments before the assassination?  What sort of conspiracy requires the sort of after-the-fact mopping up that you believe occurred, with literally everyone in the TSBD being coached or threatened, testimony being altered, people dying mysteriously, yada yada yada?

I’m just a neophyte assassination-planner, but one thing I think I would have made sure of is that Mr. Patsy was under control and nowhere to be seen at the time of the assassination.  Yet the domino room was a popular location on the first floor and Oswald ostensibly could have been seen by any number of people who could have blown the whole patsy thing.

The other thing that occurs to me is that if I actually were a patsy in the circumstances of a Presidential assassination, the one thing I would’ve done was run to the nearest police officer and begged “Take me into protective custody now!!!  I don’t know what’s going on here, but someone is trying to frame me for assassinating the President and I’ll tell you everything I know.”  I probably would not have gone home, got my revolver, shot a police officer, acted about as suspiciously as I possibly could, and attempted to draw my pistol and said "It's all over now" when confronted by a bevy of officers.  But maybe that’s just me.

Whatever enjoyment it is that you Harvey & Lee-type folks derive from all this electron-microscope scrutiny of the evidence and connecting of imaginary dots, I just don't get it.  But then there are plenty of other hobbies whose appeal is lost on me.  If I had approached the practice of law the way you folks approach the assassination, I'd still be working on my first fender-bender 37 years later.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Guest

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

1.  Numerous TSBD employees were on the front steps at the time of the assassination or in the immediate vicinity.  Not everyone recalled everyone else, but their recollections were quite good and paint a solid picture.  Not one person recalled Oswald standing in full view where Prayer Person is standing.  Does it seem plausible that not one person said “Gee, I seem to recall the guy you folks think is the assassin standing right there on the steps with us.  Maybe you should look into that, huh?”  But wait, there’s more …

Lance, that's the point, no one from those standing on steps of the doorway ever mentioned that there was someone at the western wall. Some have correctly mentioned few neighbors but others, such as Mr. Otis Williams, said they did not remember a single one. How strange. All the people standing there had a blind spot for the western wall. Even Mr. Frazier who stood some 2 feet away from Prayer Man. This I find strange. However, this person stood there, he can be seen at his spot in two films for a period of several seconds. If only one of the people in the doorway said who that person was and if that could be somehow verified, the whole case would be long over by now. But no, no one said anything about their neighbor at the western wall. Maybe they knew that that man was a big problem and chose not to say anything. Seeing no one standing to his left and right as Otis Williams said gave them a break.  

Or, they did not spot that person (except Mr. Frazier who was too close not to register that man) which would be understandable if Prayer Man stood at this spot only for a short period time (e.g., 20 -30 seconds) and everyone was focused on the Tripple Underpass. But then, how are their testimonies relevant as to who this person was?

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

2.  Of all the photos and films taken that day – or that might have been taken that day – Prayer Person appears in precisely one.  It is pure happenstance that there aren’t 15 photos in which Prayer Person is clearly identifiable.  And in that one photo Prayer Person conveniently appears as such an amorphous blob in the deep shadows that debate continues as to whether said blob is a man or a woman.  Prayer Person could be literally anyone – but, voila, it’s Oswald!  But wait, there’s more …

There are not 15 photographs of the doorway in which Prayer Man is identifiable but there is more than one document - Darnell and Wiegman. You can say a lot about this person if you want to explore. You may wish to check the thread "Prayer Man is a Man" which contains quite a lot of details regarding Prayer Man's body height, stance, hands posture, clothing, hairline and even facial features. It is the simultaneous occurrence of several, not one, features which constitute a case of Prayer Man being Lee Oswald. All those features which are seen in Prayer Man cannot be found also in Lee Oswald by chance. Of course, it is difficult to extract some features just by looking on a photograph. Apparently, my effort is laughable and your ignorance is actually the correct attitude.

 

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

3.  What conceivable assassination conspiracy would have allowed the patsy who was supposed to be on the sixth floor shooting the President to be standing in full view on the front steps?

It was not that important for the conspirators where Lee Oswald was during the shooting provided they controlled the whole crime scene, all pieces of evidence, information going out, and even could allow silencing Oswald. The Dallas Police was in on it up to their necks. That said, Lee might have been asked to wait for a phone or a visitor so he lingered on in the back of the first floor until he heard the excitement as the motorcade emerged from Main Street and decided to go out.

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[John Iacoletti]

50 minutes ago, Denis Morissette said:

This is the lady who some say is Mrs. Reid with Leavelle. This is on November 24. I only know of her visit on November 23. I've just done a screen capture of the film showing the lady.

 

Why would anybody think that this woman is Mrs Reid?