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John Butler

The Alek J. Hidell identity?

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Who was Alek J. Hidell?

As I have said in other posts, if you are a supporter of the Harvey and Lee theory, it is difficult to determine the differences between Harvey and Lee in photos.  There is honest disagreement as people view the photos of Oswald differently.  The following photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk can illustrate what I am talking about:

Oswald-in-Minsk.jpg

This looks like a composite photo to me.  The right side looks different from the left side.

LHO-minks-composite-image.jpg

I see on the right-hand side, Harvey Oswald, the man who was shot at the Dallas Police Station.  On the left-hand side I see an unknown who looks very much like Harvey Oswald and not at all like Lee Oswald.

Lee-Oswald-at-Atsugi-close-up.jpg

Could this be a third Oswald in Russia early on in the story?  The picture of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk looks very much like the Navy ID card bearing the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald issued I believe in Nov., 1959.

LHO-navy-id-card-1959.jpg

The unknown gives rise to the question could this be a third Oswald and the source of the name Alek J. Hidell?  This was the Alek Hidell ID discovered on the day of the assassination.

alek-hidell-ss-card.jpg

In the 3 photos, Oswald in Minsk, Navy ID, and Selective Service Car, the two people in the composites appear to be the same.

Was Alek James Hidell a real person and part of the Oswald Project?

What’s your opinion?

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One thing concerns the height--- [71"] on the Hidell card. The ROKC link here...

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1380-the-great-oswald-height-debate   

...dismisses this apparently [as opposed to the 69" Oswald] because 23 yr old Lee Oswald shrank due to...? Middle age?

Quote

People not only grow when they are young and start to shrink once past a certain age, we all also grow and shrink quite a bit during each and every day. So even the time of day is a factor.

Quote

getting the height right on entry into the military is important. Who cares though, what it is listed at upon exit? 

That makes no sense to me. The military medical dpt. does not change vitals. The Hidell card is fake. Jack White showed in a demo that the Oswald picture is a composite but the splice [I believe] runs from the left side of the hairline to the right side of the chin. Note the double hairline.

There is facial recognition technology.... wouldn't that work with pictures?

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Karl,

Lee Harvey Oswald was not only a man of many faces, but also a man of many heights.  There has been mention of a 5'8, 5'9, 5'9 1/2, 5'10, and 5'11 for the height of Lee Harvey Oswald.  There was mention of a 5'3 or 5'4 Oswald in Russia. 

A good question is who was the hazel eyed, 5'8 Oswald who entered the Marines.  I don't think the hazel eyes are a mistake, but point to someone other than Lee and Harvey who had blue to grey eyes.

I have forgotten that there are several threads on this.  A good one to look at is One Question re:  Two Oswalds.

David Josephs, in particular, nailed this notion:

 

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  • 59f2660f2179b_63-11-221963v1959Oswald.thumb.jpg.54814dc6efe612f762f160c339ab3242.jpg

     

    A number of the men who looked a bit like Oswald and were somehow involved....  the story of Vagaonov/Tippit and how much he looks like Oswald is quite interesting...

    At the bottom right is Thomas Arthur Vallee....  of the Chicago Plot.

       5a280e6666cfe_oswaldlookalikesVallee-Craford-Vaganov-Lee.thumb.jpg.78bbf5109b2367a64f65ac94fc53b6b0.jpg

     

    This takes the first image and mirrors each side to create the whole face...

    59b8004b2ded4_OswaldDODphotobothsidesreversedandpasted.thumb.jpg.b8ddb3e17ea25b8387f39ae02b198333.jpg

 

And,

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On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:10 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Can you point me to any information about the much shorter LHO in Russia?  I'm totally unaware of this.

Look at their feet... his right and her left are on the same elevation...

Using the image as a guide I estimate what a 5'11" man would look like in this image...

5ad75c9a121d8_OswaldandMarinainMinsk-heightissue-inserteda5foot11inchOswald.jpg.f64e6b799be71fea1481c6e5bae7ec8f.jpg

Josephs doesn't mention Alek Hidell.  He has Marina as 5'3.  She could be 5'1 with 2 inch heels and therefore 5'3, or 5'2 with 2 inch heels and therefore 5'4.  It does not make a significant difference.  The lack of significant height difference between the two is telling.  This is neither Harvey or Lee, but another person.

59b8004b2ded4_OswaldDODphotobothsidesreversedandpasted.thumb.jpg.b8ddb3e17ea25b8387f39ae02b198333.jpg   

It's my opinion that the man in the photo is the source of the Alek Hidell identity.  I support the Harvey and Lee people.  They have extensive factual information for their conclusions. 

I go a little further out on the speculation limb by saying there was more than two Oswalds.  There was a larger Oswald Project.  The person in the photo above is neither Lee or Harvey.  IMO, he is the man who is part of the picture in the ID cards, Oswald Navy card and Alek Hidell Selective Service card, and the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk.

There is little photo evidence for this person after Oswald returns to the US.   

Edited by John Butler

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On 9/14/2019 at 5:15 PM, Karl Hilliard said:

 There is facial recognition technology.... wouldn't that work with pictures?

 

I am bumping this topic because I am still not aware of any recent facial recognition study of all the Oswald pictures that are available. The HSCA reported that a team of expert photo anyalists scrutinized [all?] of the photographs in question and decided that they were in order and not faked or doctored in any way using computer investigation techniques. However...this was 1976 technology---

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0006a.htm

There are Oswald photographs that are contained in CD 871. They were listed as Secret [for some reason] and were they ever released? Anyway... I can't find them [google] and would like to have a glance at why these were classified [for some reason]--- Anyone have a link to these? Has anyone used 2020 facial ID technology? If not ...Why not? There is a company that might do this called Skywalk Security here in Dallas but I would like to have a senior co-investigator to approach anyone with this request. It might prove fruitful--Who knows?

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Karl,

I understand that some people have difficulty recognizing faces.  A facial recognition program would be a good way to determine different facial images.  I don't know of anyone who has ever tried that in this case.  It would be interesting.   

As far as the Warren Commission or HSCA photographic experts go, I lack confidence in there conclusions.  Jack White and Robert Groden were not allowed to fully testify at the HSCA.

The work of David Josephs in this thread and other things he has done is good enough for me.  I believe he has made the point.

Dick Russell's book about Richard Case Nagell explains where the identity Alex Hiddell came from.  I find that reasonable.  The explanation of Harvey in Russia saying that his name Lee sounded to much like something Chinese not as believable.

Over in the current Jim Hargrove thread we are trying to determine who Harvey Oswald's real identity was.  We proposed a number of interesting speculations.

 

 

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4 hours ago, John Butler said:

 Over in the current Jim Hargrove thread we are trying to determine who Harvey Oswald's real identity was.  We proposed a number of interesting speculations.

I was still wondering about CD 871? Years ago the Garrison inquiry had listed it along with many other *unreleased documents. As far as I know...the HSCA did not release them either. Interest from the general public has all but completely waned concerning JFK. The use of a publicized modern image recognition study might spark things up a bit again. "Speculation" won't do anything anymore.

* http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/G Disk/Garrison Jim/Garrison Jim on CIA/Item 07.pdf

 

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Karl,

As I have said earlier, I don’t know of anyone using facial recognition software on Oswald photos.  I’m not sure it would work on photos that have been altered.  That would be a real problem for an adequate and accurate analysis.

I worked up a little recognition scheme that helps me with the many versions of Lee Harvey Oswald.  This scheme is based on the mug shot of the person killed at the Dallas Police Department.  I call that person Harvey Oswald.  Here are 5 facial traits one can look for in comparisons.

oswald-pic-details-1a.jpg

With these traits in mind, we can examine other Oswald photos.  Here is one I have done before, but with a photo not as sharp as this one.

Harvey-guestion-mark-NO-pamphlet-Street-

  1.  A standard technique for photo alterers was to use a face mask (a cutout from another photo) to disguise a person’s identity.  Notice the difference in light in the coloring of the front part of the face as versus the hair area and cheek area.  Notice that the part is a different shade and larger than what one sees in the Dallas photo.

  2. Notice that the Oswald in this photo does not have an earlobe.  Earlobes are human genetic inheritance and are either attached (no earlobes) or unattached (earlobes).  There are variations in between.  The top rim of the ear lacks Harvey’s characteristic two bends or crooks in the left ear’s upper rim.

  3. Refers to the chin.  The chin is larger and squarer than the Dallas Photo.

  4. Harvey’s wide part in his hair shows a strange balding pattern.  We will see something similar in one other photo.  And, that’s it.

lee-oswald-no-earlobe.jpg

This photo is of Lee Oswald at Atsugi, Japan.  He lacks earlobes and has a broader nose.

lee-oswald-earbobes-strange-hair-pattern

This version of Lee Oswald from 1958.  Oswald is on leave.  This matches the hair pattern, but he has earlobes.  He has a narrow nose and chin.

These photos demonstrate there is more than 2 Oswalds, or photos have been altered.  How would a facial recognition program deal with this?

One last set of photos for comparison.  None of the guys look like Harvey Oswald, the man killed at the Dallas Police Station.

broad-nosed-Oswald-marine-who-is-it-1.jp

Edited by John Butler

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