EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 minute ago, John Kowalski said:

Tracey:

What do you hope to gain by posting on this forum? After posting 1470 posts, do you believe that you have accomplished something?

 

No John, probably not too much. That's because I'm dealing with folks that say they want a DNA test but then quickly add that they wouldn't even trust that. The evidence that there were not 2 Oswalds is overwhelming and accepted even by the majority of conspiracy-oriented researchers as a non-scientific poll here showed. However, I am a firm supporter of free speech, so please carry on. As I mentioned, I will "butt out" for the most part. Every once in a while I lose my head and start posting, but I will try to control that impulse.

[John Kowalski]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:34 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Now that the break between holidays is giving us a little free time again, I was just wondering if we had done everything possible to eliminate John Gardos, son of the Communist activists Emil and Grace Gardos, as a candidate for the Russian-speaking “Oswald.”

Jim:

There is more to this story than eliminating John Gardos as being Harvey. Even if he is not Harvey, we are still left with a question, why did this woman make this call? Why would she say that Harvey's father and uncle were Hungarian and communist? Was she lying, was she creating false leads to distract investigators or did she really believe what she was saying? If Marguerite had been identified in the media as Harvey's mother, and this woman was aware of her, then she would, assuming that she was not a disinformation agent, be the first person to raise the possibility of 2 Oswalds.

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

No John, probably not too much. That's because I'm dealing with folks that say they want a DNA test but then quickly add that they wouldn't even trust that. The evidence that there were not 2 Oswalds is overwhelming and accepted even by the majority of conspiracy-oriented researchers as a non-scientific poll here showed. However, I am a firm supporter of free speech, so please carry on. As I mentioned, I will "butt out" for the most part. Every once in a while I lose my head and start posting, but I will try to control that impulse.

John K,

Tracy Parnell has firm views of the Kennedy Assassination.  I believe he is wrong.  But, there is no use to have a conversation, because it would be a waste of time.  I have firm views also and it takes more than someone saying it ain't so to change my mind.

That's why Jim Hargrove set up this thread.  Show proof rather than just say it isn't so.

What I am doing here is investigating a possibility that I am not 100 % sure I can support.  There is a great deal of evidence circulating around the notion that John Gardos might be Harvey Oswald.  At this point, there is no direct evidence directly supporting the idea.  All there is at this point is speculations, loose connections, and what might amount to circumstantial evidence.  Circumstantial evidence is defined as:

"Definition of circumstantial evidence. : evidence that tends to prove a fact by proving other events or circumstances which afford a basis for a reasonable inference of the occurrence of the fact at issue."

I think a case can be made for circumstantial evidence.  I believe I am making a reasonable inference.  But, that would have to be agreed on by others due to my lack of confidence that I would be right saying circumstantial evidence exists.  That's the way a jury works.  Circumstantial evidence is verified by a jury.

What is needed is direct evidence something like the tooth evidence which unquestionably shows a clear difference between Harvey and Lee after the 1981 exhumation of Harvey Oswald.  Their dental records and historical record provides the basis for a Harvey and Lee.  John Armstrong has assembled a huge mass of data for the idea.

But, in reality you need only one to prove the idea.  The tooth evidence is one good example.  John Armstrong has assembled many, many pieces of evidence of a direct nature.

 

   

 

 

[John Butler]

I said earlier:

"If an outcome becomes positive for relationship, how would we know if it is true?"  Tracy Parnell made a big deal of that suggesting fanaticism.  I simply added that comment in relationship to all the other fraudulent and manufactured evidence found in the Kennedy affair.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

There is more to this story than eliminating John Gardos as being Harvey. Even if he is not Harvey, we are still left with a question, why did this woman make this call? Why would she say that Harvey's father and uncle were Hungarian and communist? Was she lying, was she creating false leads to distract investigators or did she really believe what she was saying? If Marguerite had been identified in the media as Harvey's mother, and this woman was aware of her, then she would, assuming that she was not a disinformation agent, be the first person to raise the possibility of 2 Oswalds.

 

John K,

Here are some thoughts:

There is more to investigate about this Tippit call than John Gardos.  The mysterious caller is certainly intriguing.  What do we know about this woman and what can be inferred about her?

-She was a mysterious caller who refused to give her name.  She said if she did that she would be killed if her name was known.  This implies she knew the players involved and the consequences of revealing this information.  This also implies that she may be closely connected to the information she was giving out.   

-If this lady knew about Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey) having Hungarian immigrant forebears, why didn’t she make that known to someone who was closer in connection to the Oswald and Kennedy assassinations.  Why choose the Tippit murder and his distant relatives to make this announcement? 

-Some have suggested this might be disinformation from an unknown to convince folks that Lee Harvey Oswald was a communist and a proponent of the Soviet Union.  This really is not sensible since Harvey proclaimed his Marxist and communist background.  And, he had defected to the Soviet Union earlier.

-She knew the Jack Tippit family was related to J. D. Tippit when she asked if they were related.  If she didn't, she wouldn't have journeyed to Westport Conn, to make the call.  And, tried to keep the call secret so she would not be revealed.  This was a woman, by November 30, 1963, who knew how the investigation into the Kennedy assassination was going.  People had been killed and more was to come.  She didn't want to be in the "more to come". 

-She said she was from New York and knew Oswald’s father, uncle, and brother in law.  They were Hungarian communists.  She mentioned the brother in law several times.  She said the father was Emil Kardos (Emil Gardos).  This immediately identified who the uncle was and also the brother in law.  This would be Fred Blair whose sister, Grace Amalia Blair, married Emil Gardos.  There is no good candidate for the brother in law except Fred Blair.  She might have been referencing Fred Blair’s brother in law, but that is unlikely.  And, mean that her knowledge of Fred Blair was limited.

-The FBI had been following the activities of this pair for decades.  The FBI knew immediately who the uncle and father were.  This is suspicious.  Why would the FBI coverup this information and hope it never saw the light of day?  My thought is that at least Emil Gardos was a confidential informant for the government, FBI.

-She said she was from New York.  In order to know Emil Gardos and Fred Blair this must have taken place in the Little Hungary area of New York, Yorkville.  And, she must have known them in the right time frame to understand that Harvey was the son of Emil Gardos.  This would have been somewhere in the time frame of the late 1930s to the early 1950s. 

-She said that Oswald’s father and uncle lived at 77^th Street and 2^nd Avenue, in Yorkville, NY.  And, when they were there both were unemployed and living off money given to them by the communists.  She said they spent all their time on communist activities.  This is an adequate description of Fred Blair and Emil Gardos.  This might have occurred during the time Fred Blair went underground.  This could go back as far as 1946 and 1947.

-Why would Emil Gardos live at 77th Street and 2nd Avenue?  He live .07 miles from there at 217 East 86th Street.  This could be Fred's place and a work place for both.

-She said she would give two names.  And, she did, Emil Gardos and Weinstock.  This has confused some thinking Weinstock was the uncle or brother in law.  She identifies Weinstock as an editor of Woman’s World.  This was actually the Daily Worker.  This was the paper that Louis Weinstock was editor there.  Identifying who Weinstock was rules him out as the uncle or brother in law.  It also says that the mysterious caller did not know as much as she should or her memory of events was faulty suggesting and elderly person.

More to come

[John Kowalski]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

John K,

Tracy Parnell has firm views of the Kennedy Assassination.  I believe he is wrong.  But, there is no use to have a conversation, because it would be a waste of time.  I have firm views also and it takes more than someone saying it ain't so to change my mind.

That's why Jim Hargrove set up this thread.  Show proof rather than just say it isn't so.

What I am doing here is investigating a possibility that I am not 100 % sure I can support.  There is a great deal of evidence circulating around the notion that John Gardos might be Harvey Oswald.  At this point, there is no direct evidence directly supporting the idea.  All there is at this point is speculations, loose connections, and what might amount to circumstantial evidence.  Circumstantial evidence is defined as:

"Definition of circumstantial evidence. : evidence that tends to prove a fact by proving other events or circumstances which afford a basis for a reasonable inference of the occurrence of the fact at issue."

I think a case can be made for circumstantial evidence.  I believe I am making a reasonable inference.  But, that would have to be agreed on by others due to my lack of confidence that I would be right saying circumstantial evidence exists.  That's the way a jury works.  Circumstantial evidence is verified by a jury.

What is needed is direct evidence something like the tooth evidence which unquestionably shows a clear difference between Harvey and Lee after the 1981 exhumation of Harvey Oswald.  Their dental records and historical record provides the basis for a Harvey and Lee.  John Armstrong has assembled a huge mass of data for the idea.

But, in reality you need only one to prove the idea.  The tooth evidence is one good example.  John Armstrong has assembled many, many pieces of evidence of a direct nature.

 

   

 

 

John B:

Agree with you about Tracy. His view about the assassination and H&L are set and will not be changed. My view about the assassination too are set. There is too much evidence in support of them and this is why I resist debating those individuals who claim that Oswald was the lone gunman. To have a debate with someone about any issue you must be be prepared to hear the other persons arguments. If you have made up your mind about an issue then you are wasting your time getting into a debate because your mind will not be changed.

Circumstantial evidence is important when it comes to proving a case, especially when the case is homicide. Courts use it as a basis for convicting people of crimes. The use of this evidence is necessary, otherwise how would you convict anybody of anything? How many murders are committed with witnesses present? Without a witness, circumstantial evidence is required. The planners of JFK's murder surely did not keep notes with names of everyone involved, and the 2 Oswald project planners no doubt destroyed any written evidence about it.

 

 

 

 

[John Kowalski]

You make some good points here about

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

-The FBI had been following the activities of this pair for decades.  The FBI knew immediately who the uncle and father were.  This is suspicious.  Why would the FBI coverup this information and hope it never saw the light of day?  My thought is that at least Emil Gardos was a confidential informant for the government, FBI.

Being an informant could explain why the FBI covered it up. Another possible reason is the 2 Oswald project. If Harvey was John Cardos and his parents were real communists and not  informants, the FBI would have revealed this information to the public because it would support their case that Harvey was a communist. But they could not do that because Marguerite  was now his mother and that would create a problem.

[John Butler]

John K,

I like your logic.  I’m not dismissing the Oswald Project.  I simply haven’t got there yet.  The Oswald Project is what this call is all about.  If this woman knew that Harvey Oswald was not the son of Robert and Marguerite Oswald and that she knew the real parents then this certainly has to do with two Lee Harvey Oswalds.  This leads to a lot of other questions about the roles of Emil and Grace Gardos, the governments role in the Gardos family, the Zeitgeist of the times, and the ruthlessness of government agencies and government agents.  The foremost question is what did the FBI know and when did they know it.  What did the FBI know about the Oswald Project early on and later after the assassination?  Why did Hoover have the concern that someone might be using Oswald's birth certificate? 

I have long held the belief that WWII was the root cause of the governmental atrocities of the 1950s and 1960s.  People were allowed to do things that under normal circumstances would not be allowed.  However, they believed in those days that anything goes in order to win the war.  This led to blunders, law breaking, and atrocities that were covered up during the war.  The people who did those things in order to win the war were in charge during the 60s.  And, Murder, Inc. ruled there thinking as an easy solution to problems.  Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.  

-The mysterious caller may have been an elderly lady who was under a lot of stress in risking this call.  In this stressful moment she may have forgotten the name of Fred Blair or she maybe didn’t know it.  She was said to have begun speaking indistinctly, disjointedly, and nervously and she kept repeating the words brother in law.

-Of the two, a lapse of memory concerning the name Fred Blair, or did she simply not know the name?  The prior is the more likely.  If she didn’t know Fred Blair’s name then how would she have known he was the brother in law.  Fred is the uncle and brother in law.

-The mysterious caller was said to have an accent.  Mrs. Tippit said she had a German or Austrian accent.  Mr. Tippit said she had a Spanish accent.  This later statement may be something added by the FBI to confuse this issue if things were made known.  There is very little difference between Austrian German and German German so to speak.  Of the two we can think the mysterious caller had a German accent or one that sounded German.  Spanish is such a different sound than German in my opinion it would be hard to mistake the two.  I wonder how close a Hungarian accents sounds like a German accent. 

-To back up the notion that this may have been an elderly woman Mrs. Tippit said the caller had a mature and not youthful voice.

-At the last of the document there is this statement by the FBI, “BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.” 

This was from the FBI SAC in New Haven, Conn.  I wonder if this was ever coordinated with any anybody after it was sent to Dallas and New York.  I wonder if word from on high went out to destroy this memo in Dallas and New York? 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

10 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Why did Hoover have the concern that someone might be using Oswald's birth certificate? 

Hoover's concern and all other matters about the BC are explained here:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-truth-about-oswalds-birth.html

There was a detailed discussion on the issue right here at EF which led to my article.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

There is more to this story than eliminating John Gardos as being Harvey. Even if he is not Harvey, we are still left with a question, why did this woman make this call? Why would she say that Harvey's father and uncle were Hungarian and communist? Was she lying, was she creating false leads to distract investigators or did she really believe what she was saying? If Marguerite had been identified in the media as Harvey's mother, and this woman was aware of her, then she would, assuming that she was not a disinformation agent, be the first person to raise the possibility of 2 Oswalds.

John,

I think we all agree that there was probably something significant to that anonymous call.  As Paul J. suggested, why else did the FBI fail to recognize the names of people it had supposedly been hounding for years, and why was the report buried for so long?

John Butler did a nice job summarizing the possibilities above.  I’d just add a couple of things.  First, there was a well known communist paper called “Worker’s World,” which sure sounds a lot like “Woman’s World,” perhaps corrupted unintentionally by the Tippits or deliberately by the FBI.

Second, the seeming certainty of the caller suggests that the child might have been using the name “Lee Harvey Oswald” or something very close to that when the woman knew him and the Gardoses.  If that is the case,  it *MAY* set the start date of the “Oswald Project” to earlier even than 1947.  Phony Marguerite was very much in the picture during the full time Harvey Oswald is known to have attended school in New York City in the 1950s, so I doubt the caller was referring to that time frame, but it is hard to be sure.

There is probably no way to prove it, but my bet is that the majority of so-called communists active in the U.S. during the 1930s onward were probably some sort of FBI informants or assets. The number of times Emil Gardos was ordered to leave the country, and the fact that he maintained a NYC address after all those orders sure seems suspicious to me.

I’m still looking for a reference to John Gardos in familysearch.org that would disqualify him as Harvey Oswald, and still have found nothing other than the 1940 U.S. Census.  Wish I had more free time.  

[John Butler]

Jim and John K,

"then she would, assuming that she was not a disinformation agent, be the first person to raise the possibility of 2 Oswalds."  I missed this entirely.  It didn't register.  She is the first to raise the issue.   The date of her call was November 30, 1963.  This was one day after Lyndon Johnson signed an executive order establishing the Warren Commission.  One could suppose the announcement of the commission may have triggered the call.

The 2nd Red Scare began in Canada in 1946:

"In Canada, the 1946 Kellock–Taschereau Commission investigated espionage after top secret documents concerning RDX, radar and other weapons were handed over to the Soviets by a domestic spy-ring."

 And, headed south.  President Truman:

"In March 1947, President Harry S. Truman signed Executive Order 9835, creating the "Federal Employees Loyalty Program" establishing political-loyalty review boards who determined the "Americanism" of Federal Government employees, and requiring that all federal employees to take an oath of loyalty to the United States government. It then recommended termination of those who had confessed to spying for the Soviet Union, as well as some suspected of being "Un-American".

Not being able to find any information on John Gardos could be an indicator of government intervention.

There should be school records for John Gardos in Yorkville, NY.  The address 217 East 86th Street would tell you exactly which school he went to for elementary school.  The school may not be around from such a long time ago, but the records should be at some School Board location.

 

[John Kowalski]

16 hours ago, John Butler said:

The foremost question is what did the FBI know and when did they know it.  What did the FBI know about the Oswald Project early on and later after the assassination?  Why did Hoover have the concern that someone might be using Oswald's birth certificate? 

You make a good point about what the FBI knew. They probably knew more than they let on in the documents they have released tot he public. The fact that they had been tracking them for years and then not seeming to know anything about them is suspicious.

 

[John Butler]

John K,

The document in question is from the FBI office in New Haven, Conn.  It was sent to the Dallas and New York offices.  Then from there I guess that would have went to higher ups.  Those are the folks that killed the info by burying the Tippit call forever as far as they were concerned.

The New York FBI people would definitely have known of the Gardos communists.  They would be the people who knew if Emil Gardos, or anyone connected to him were confidential informants.  Being a CI would be reason to bury the info.  Maybe they were smart enough to understand where the Oswald / Kennedy affair was going. 

It might be interesting to know what the following from the FBI document means:

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

The story had not been completely formulated by November 30, 1963.  The higher ups in the FBI would be aware of the story since they started going after Oswald school records and destroying data. 

A good point here might be there are no school records for John Gardos to be found.  If the FBI cleaned Oswald's school records then would they omit John Gardos' records if indeed he was Harvey Oswald.

If no one can find any records on John Gardos that would be suspicious.

Edited December 5, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Second, the seeming certainty of the caller suggests that the child might have been using the name “Lee Harvey Oswald” or something very close to that when the woman knew him and the Gardoses.  If that is the case,  it *MAY* set the start date of the “Oswald Project” to earlier even than 1947.  Phony Marguerite was very much in the picture during the full time Harvey Oswald is known to have attended school in New York City in the 1950s, so I doubt the caller was referring to that time frame, but it is hard to be sure.

Jim:

I should have realized that the significance of the call was relevant to posters on this thread.

Am very interested in the origins of the Oswald project. No date has been established but 1947 has been the earliest date suggested. Can you clarify something for me; you stated that it may have begun prior to 1947 because "...the caller suggests that the child may have been using the name 'Lee Harvey Oswald'..." Why do you think that this statement suggests an earlier start date? Do you or John have any theories about the when the project began?

Edited December 5, 2019 by John Kowalski

[John Butler]

John K,

IMO, after the defeat of the Axis Powers in WWII, those who ran the profitable military-industrial-educational establishment needed a new enemy to keep the profits coming in.  Fortunately, there was a real enemy out there, the Soviet Union.

The Red Scare, sometimes called McCarthyism, the Marshal Plan, and the Foreign Policy of Soviet containment occurred during the years 1946-1948.  This period is the beginning of the Cold War.  This is the time that government and media changed the perceptions of Communists/Russians from WWII allies, the good guys, to the foreign menace.  The CIA was established in September, 1947. 

I believe during this period the Oswald Project was established.  I don't want to argue with Jim Hargrove or John Armstrong over the possible start of the Oswald Project.  They are brighter than I am and have a better handle on the facts.

But, my guess would be the start was somewhere after 1946 and Truman's executive order in March, 1947. 

A question one might ask is did the school records for a Harvey and a Lee begin in the fall of 1947?