EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

Marina was a nice looking young lady.  At that age that would personally sway my opinion of her.  However, a more realistic view is available with age. I believe Marina Oswald was a Soviet intelligence agent, a double agent and then a triple agent undergoing a reversal to Soviet allegiance once she was in the US.  That's nothing new.  A lot of people believe that.  I believe her mission was to seduce, marry, and then leave the Soviet Union with Ozzie.  The seduction occurred when Marina did not allow Ozzie his sexual intentions.  Therefore, he proposed as a rebound from an earlier failed proposal.  There was probably committee (there was a group of 20 KGB agents assigned to monitor Ozzie) work done on that decision of withholding sex.  Marina was sexually active with other foreigners before meeting Ozzie.  Nothing she said or did should be taken as gospel. 

I believe the timeline of events in Russian show that Marina showed up after Ozzie announces his intent to return to the US.  The video I posted on the atom bomb shows the true nature of a female Soviet intelligence agent.  Sex and marriage is just one more tool in their intelligence activities.

John,

Yes, I agree that Marina was almost certainly an asset of Soviet Intelligence, a dangle or "honeytrap" to entice foreign men into marriage and ultimately to relocate to another country. The fact that she met not only our "Oswald" but also Robert Webster is a huge red flag, a sure sign that she had some task, some mission to perform in relation to these American men. (Marina told Mrs. Declan Ford that Marina had "told her her husband went to Moscow, Russia, in 1959 where we had an exhibition, and worked for exhibition, then defected to the Russians at this time.")

But "Oswald" didn't defect in 1959 from an American exhibition - Webster did!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

Our own Jim Hargrove noted a few years ago that Robert Webster told Dick Russell in 1997 that he had met Marina in the summer of 1959 and spoke with her in English!

Whatever her original Soviet mission might have been came to a crashing end on 11/22/63 - she no longer had any possible use to Soviet Intelligence as an undercover agent. Her cover was blown, she couldn't go home, she feared criminal charges, and as a (now) single mother of two small children she was terrified that something could happen to her babies. Understandably, she'd say anything to make the American authorities happy and to stay here. 

And so she did. 

 

[John Butler]

Paul,

I'm not so sure she would say anything to make the authorities happy.  I'll agree she would say anything that the authorities wanted about Oswald with the exception he was connected to the Soviets and did the assassination at their behest.  I believe the Soviets would still have a use for her.

That is the way I read Marina's actions after the assassination.

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone done any research on the Pitcairn family? Greg Parker claims that Marguerite Oswald worked for Pittsburgh Glass, which is one of their companies, and that they were fascists.

I can't tell you much about "Marguerite's" employment history. I can tell you that there are more than a few instances of "Oswald" expressing hatred, scorn, disdain, or indifference to his "mother." 

In the first complete sentence at the top of this page is an obvious one (from Mrs. Declan Ford, quoting Marina, quoting "Oswald"):

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

 

[John Butler]

I would like to repeat this information from an earlier post.  This repeated information ties directly into what time frame the mysterious lady caller in the Tippit call knew the Gardos communists.  Emil, Grace, and little John were known to the mysterious lady.  She may not of known Fred Blair's name or had forgotten it during the stress of the call so she repeated brother in law several times.  And, example of this might be not remembering the name of the actor, Robert Duval, and say something like you know that Lonesome Dove actor who liked to kick a pig.

"I have an idea.  See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street.  Then check that school for John Gardos attendance.   HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946.  John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade.  He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years.  If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald.

Here's the reasoning for that.  I'm a retired school teacher.  The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility.  Why?  John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947).  This is too old for a 1st grade student.  This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946.

The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s.  Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade.  Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available.  Different states may vary a little on these procedures.  Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible.  In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year.  This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date.  I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available  at an age earlier age then 6 years."

I repeated this information so that I wouldn't have to retype it.  I believe the time frame that the mysterious caller knew the Gardos was before 1949-1950.  The Gardos left for Hungary sometime in 1949-1950.  This is according to the Congressional Record that was published in 1950.  The Congressional Record reveals that Grace and Emil applied for a visa to visit Hungary in 1949.  There is no record in that Congressional Record about 10 year old John Gardos.  Anytime after that Emil and Grace would be out of the country.

So, the school records for John Gardos is critical for the years 1945-1949.  Grace is living at her residence at 217 East 86th Street, Yorkville, NY in 1944 and 1946.  If one can find school records for 1945 and 1946 that could say something about Harvey Oswald's school record in 1947 in Texas.  As I explain above Harvey Oswald should not have been 8 years old on entering the first grade at the Benbrook school.  He should have done the same as Lee entering the first grade in 1945. 

So, If one can find a school record for John Gardos in NY in 1947-1948 or anytime after that date it should put an end to the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection.  This has to be the son of Emil and Grace A. and living at 217 East 86th Street and the appropriate school for that address. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Finding where John Gardos was in period 1945-1949 may determine what assumptions are credible in the assumption that John Gardos might be Harvey Oswald.  Let's say if he was Harvey why would his parents give him up to the Oswald Project and the custody of, I would assume, a stranger Marguerite Oswald. 

They may have been government agents and that is the reason for the long deportation of Emil Gardos.  Emil may have been coopted as a confidential informant for the FBI long before the 1940s.  In NY during the 1930s there were a lot of disaffected Hungarian communists because of Stalin and what was happening in Russia.  They became anti-communists.   Emil and Grace could have one of this group.

If they were government agents they certainly would not have wanted to take their child to post WWII Hungary.  After March 1947 and President Truman's executive order, communists should have seen the writing on the wall.  Communists will be persecuted staring now.  This may have motivated the Gardos' thinking or the governments thinking of how to get agents into post war Hungary.

As far as John Armstrong's account of the early schooling of Harvey and Lee, he knew that in 1947 Harvey starts the 1st grade at the Benbrook school in 1947 and Lee was in the 2nd grade at Covington school until Jan. 1946 and then the Lilly Clayton school in Jan. 1947. That is for the 1946-47 school year.  The 1947-1948 school year should have had Lee in the 3rd grade Arlington Elem school.  He would be 8 years old that year.  John Gardos would also be 8 years old in 1947-1948.  But, he was in the 1st grade.

The Armstrong account of the early school years of Harvey and Lee is consistent and accurate.  I'm almost sure I screwed that up due to the complexity of the record.  The point to make here is there could be a 2 year gap between the grades of Harvey and Lee.  John Armstrong is aware of that as he mentions it.   

 

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

Marina may have said nothing to John Armstrong about "Oswald's" copy of Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus", but there it is, listed on a reputable auction site in 2013 with a letter of provenance from Marina herself:

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books-total-2-items-/a/6106-38424.s

I can't conceive of a reasonable explanation for intelligence agencies to fabricate this evidence - they want to bury any leads into "Oswald's" real background, not highlight them (albeit however obscurely) in a public Dallas auction! 

Therefore, I think it is very likely that these books truly were once owned by our "Oswald", no matter what Marina later implied to John A.

Absolutely!  The "Circus Maximus" find is fascinating.  The whole thread has been really interesting lately, and it is hard to keep up with you guys!  I'll try to contribute something better soon.

[Paul Jolliffe]

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

I would like to repeat this information from an earlier post.  This repeated information ties directly into what time frame the mysterious lady caller in the Tippit call knew the Gardos communists.  Emil, Grace, and little John were known to the mysterious lady.  She may not of known Fred Blair's name or had forgotten it during the stress of the call so she repeated brother in law several times.  And, example of this might be not remembering the name of the actor, Robert Duval, and say something like you know that Lonesome Dove actor who liked to kick a pig.

"I have an idea.  See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street.  Then check that school for John Gardos attendance.   HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946.  John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade.  He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years.  If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald.

Here's the reasoning for that.  I'm a retired school teacher.  The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility.  Why?  John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947).  This is too old for a 1st grade student.  This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946.

The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s.  Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade.  Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available.  Different states may vary a little on these procedures.  Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible.  In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year.  This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date.  I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available  at an age earlier age then 6 years."

I repeated this information so that I wouldn't have to retype it.  I believe the time frame that the mysterious caller knew the Gardos was before 1949-1950.  The Gardos left for Hungary sometime in 1949-1950.  This is according to the Congressional Record that was published in 1950.  The Congressional Record reveals that Grace and Emil applied for a visa to visit Hungary in 1949.  There is no record in that Congressional Record about 10 year old John Gardos.  Anytime after that Emil and Grace would be out of the country.

So, the school records for John Gardos is critical for the years 1945-1949.  Grace is living at her residence at 217 East 86th Street, Yorkville, NY in 1944 and 1946.  If one can find school records for 1945 and 1946 that could say something about Harvey Oswald's school record in 1947 in Texas.  As I explain above Harvey Oswald should not have been 8 years old on entering the first grade at the Benbrook school.  He should have done the same as Lee entering the first grade in 1945. 

So, If one can find a school record for John Gardos in NY in 1947-1948 or anytime after that date it should put an end to the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection.  This has to be the son of Emil and Grace A. and living at 217 East 86th Street and the appropriate school for that address. 

John B,

Remind me: how do we know that Emil and Grace Gardos were living at 217 East 86th Street in the Yorkville neighborhood of NYC between 1944 and 1946?

Do we have any official address for them at any point before the 1950 Senate Report which cited their Yorkville address in 1949? If so, tell me again, what record/s tell us their address in the mid 1940's?

We know from the 1940 Census they were in Ironwood, Michigan in 1940, and we know from the 1950 Senate Report they were in Yorkville in 1949.  

What evidence for their addresses can we cite for the years in between?

The Gardos parents obviously moved from Michigan to NYC at some point in the 1940's.

Exactly when?

 

[John Butler]

22 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John B,

Remind me: how do we know that Emil and Grace Gardos were living at 217 East 86th Street in the Yorkville neighborhood of NYC between 1944 and 1946?

Do we have any official address for them at any point before the 1950 Senate Report which cited their Yorkville address in 1949? If so, tell me again, what record/s tell us their address in the mid 1940's?

We know from the 1940 Census they were in Ironwood, Michigan in 1940, and we know from the 1950 Senate Report they were in Yorkville in 1949.  

What evidence for their addresses can we cite for the years in between?

The Gardos parents obviously moved from Michigan to NYC at some point in the 1940's.

Exactly when?

 

Here are the two records I based that on.  I should have posted these at the time, but was to lazy to go through the photo posting procedure.

and,

These are neat.  They even have what appears to be phone numbers.

As far as when the Gardos communists moved to New York after living in Ironwood, MI is uncertain.  It would be sometime between 1940 and 1944.

Edited December 7, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here are the two records I based that on.  I should have posted these at the time, but was to lazy to go through the photo posting procedure.

and,

These are neat.  They even have what appears to be phone numbers.

As far as when the Gardos communists moved to New York after living in Ironwood, MI is uncertain.  It would be sometime between 1940 and 1944.

John B.,

Good. That's exactly what I wanted to see.

OK it would appear from the address 217 E. 86th Street in NYC (which appears on Google Maps below to be largely unchanged since the 1940's), that there is an elementary school nearby with a very interesting history - The Ramaz School. 

From school's website:

" In the 1930's, the Upper East Side neighborhood known as Yorkville was an area where "Jewishness" was toned down; Jews of the area did not want to attract attention. In fact, in 1936, following the Depression and during the rise of Hitlerism, the pro-Nazi German-American Bund held street rallies up and down Third Avenue . . .

As darkness fell upon European Jewry, the light of European children began to fill the halls of the Ramaz School. Jews from France, Belgium, Germany and Holland were flocking to the United States. Their children came from the Lycées of France, the Tachkemoni of Antwerp and a myriad of other schools.

The refugee population especially concerned Rabbi Joseph H. Lookstein. It was apparent to him that if the Ramaz School did not exist, these children would have difficulty finding a suitable Jewish school. By 1938, in order to ensure adequate space for these students, the Ramaz School rented several rooms in the Central Jewish Institute building at 125 East 85th Street. Seventy-one boys and girls enrolled, creating the need to lease the entire building as the school's new quarters.

The Ramaz School was becoming widely recognized as an institution known for its academic excellence. The Teacher's Institute of Yeshiva University began sending student teachers to observe and fulfill their student-teaching requirements. In 1942, the school received its provisional charter from the Board of Regents of the State of New York. Enrollment by this time had risen to one hundred and twenty students."

 

John, we know from the testimony of Nelson Delgado that "Oswald" apparently knew at least some Yiddish! Whether or not "Oswald" was indeed the biological son of the Gardos parents, we are certain there must have been some connection between them, however brief. If there are any surviving elementary school records for either little John Gardos (or "Oswald"), the Ramaz School archives (if they exist) are a good place to start..

https://www.ramaz.org/page.cfm?p=512

 

Here is what 217 E. 86th Street looks like today - except for the street level storefronts, the building itself looks unchanged for decades:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7784686,-73.9530716,3a,75y,49.16h,104.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sET4Z9Mb_MJ4TVoPOVy1g6Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited December 7, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Paul Jolliffe]

Following up on 217 East 86th Street, kitty-corner from the Gardos residence was a movie theater (fromerly the 86th Street Casino Theater) that in the 1930's and '40's catered to the predominant German neighborhood by showing German movie premiers. It is likely that the Gardos family and/or  "Oswald" saw movies at this theater. This theater still in use until this past May (of 2019.) 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7784908,-73.9531238,3a,30y,264.95h,96.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNLBRbBrnumXfimXVV-mamA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/7469

 

[John Butler]

Paul,

This is a spectacular piece of research.

I'm surprised that some of the old buildings are still left in that area.   This is a good view toward Central Park and just across the park the Bronx.

There were subways there in the spring of 1963.  Since it is less than a mile from central New York, say a Times Square hotel, I wonder if Ozzie took Marina and the child to his old neighborhood and watched a movie at the old theater there just for old times sake.  The distance out to the park is not great and the distance down town was not great either.  New Yorkers being walkers, bus catchers, cab riders, and subway riders would have found these distances trivial.  There are subways there in the 1960s and today.  There were Trolleys there in earlier times. 

Practically, any place on the upper east side was obtainable in a short period of time in those days and today.

Here's a Nazi parade at Madison Square Garden in the 1930s.  It not an arduous walk from 86th street to watch this parade.

Yorkville was called Little Hungary.  I suppose it also could be called Little Russia and Little Germany.  These were the dominant ethnic groups in the area during the 1930s and 1940s.

This area probably had its share of Hungarian communists, Hungarian facists, and Hungarian Jews.  There would also have been Russian communists and German fascists all around.  I don't know how they would look at the Jewish folk, but in all probability not kindly. 

It is an ethnic community and Oswald, if he was John Gardos,  had the opportunity to learn bits and pieces of a lot of different languages.  

[John Butler]

Paul,

The school records for John Gardos would solve this problem.  What is need is records from the 1st and 2nd grade from a school in Yorkville such as the Ramaz school or some other.  If you could find any other school record that would be important.  If you found 3rd and 4th grade records there in Yorkville, then that would pretty much end the research.

The Ramaz school is intriguing.  Somewhere, Harvey Oswald got the notion he should be an intellectual reading books that people don't normally read.  Going to the opera, etc.  He could have gotten this mind set from his original parents or from a school.  You say the Ramaz school was known for academic excellence.  It was close by. 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

The "Student Records and Transcripts" page from the NYC Department of Education web page says (emphasis added by me):

Transcripts help schools, students, and families track student progress in school. Students, parents, and guardians are allowed to view and get copies of student records, including transcripts. This is stated in the New York City Department of Education’s (DOE) Parents’ Bill of Rights and Student Bill of Rights.

The instructions for requesting records by mail order require a copy of a photo ID.

[John Butler]

The information posted here was incorrect and has been deleted.  This information was based on a wrong address for the Oswalds. I will try to correct this mistake in later posts.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The "Student Records and Transcripts" page from the NYC Department of Education web page says (emphasis added by me):

Transcripts help schools, students, and families track student progress in school. Students, parents, and guardians are allowed to view and get copies of student records, including transcripts. This is stated in the New York City Department of Education’s (DOE) Parents’ Bill of Rights and Student Bill of Rights.

The instructions for requesting records by mail order require a copy of a photo ID.

So, school records are not public records in New York?  Do they have some policy about the public gaining access to school records?

I have just looked up KY's current school records law and it seems to be the same as New York.  Records are only for the parents of students until 21 years.  This is different since I graced the halls of education.  In those halcyon days the public had a right to look at any school record.  There was a 45 day compulsory requirement for a school board to answer that request.

Unless there is some other way to check John Gardos school career this seems to be a dead end.

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler