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Jim Hargrove

EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

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Jim,

I checked the email this morning and have received David Joseph's timeline.  It is a marvelous piece of work.  A lot of hard work and time went into that.  I know since I did a time line of Oswalds in the military and started another for in Russia.  I will go back to my military timeline and see if I can add more to it.  Since my blunder with the rubles conversion I haven't done much on Russia.  There is something wrong with that business of the ruble conversions and I think I will go back and revisit that.

Earlier I asked a question why Marguerite decided to stay in NYC for a year or two more after she left the Pics.  Somebody said this was because she wanted him mentally tested.

 

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6 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

I checked the email this morning and have received David Joseph's timeline.  It is a marvelous piece of work.  A lot of hard work and time went into that.  I know since I did a time line of Oswalds in the military and started another for in Russia.  I will go back to my military timeline and see if I can add more to it.  Since my blunder with the rubles conversion I haven't done much on Russia.  There is something wrong with that business of the ruble conversions and I think I will go back and revisit that.

Earlier I asked a question why Marguerite decided to stay in NYC for a year or two more after she left the Pics.  Somebody said this was because she wanted him mentally tested.

 

Thanks John... and if you see anything that needs fixing please feel free to email me...  I haven't worked on it for a while...

As to the "mental testing" this was relayed to us by a woman claiming to have been their housekeeper in NYC...  Louise ROBERTSON
(I suggest going to Baylor's site for John's notebooks and download those that are most needed... I have scores of them now... here is the one for Louise:
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/18246)

On Nov 27th she presents herself to the FBI and tells this story of MARGE hiring her to clean their apartment (amazing right? she is ALWAYS complaining about money yet has a housekeeper who just happens to live literally around the corner from 825 E 179th.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/825+East+179th+Street,+The+Bronx,+NY/2039+Southern+Blvd,+The+Bronx,+NY+10460/@40.8437413,-73.8847891,148a,35y,331.5h,42.28t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2f4897dd3a6f3:0x77d590bf0e5635ae!2m2!1d-73.8857213!2d40.8449435!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2f4897d72136f:0x4535ad7a2c3f1fbd!2m2!1d-73.8852334!2d40.8449063!3e2?hl=en

She claims they spoke of testing Harvey at the Jacobi Hospital in the Bronx... she claims they spoke before they left for North Dakota at the end of the summer 1953...
One BIG problem....

Following several years of construction, Van Etten Hospital opened in September 1954 with 500 beds, named in honor of Dr. Nathan B. Van Etten, a well-known Bronx practitioner with deep concern for the sick poor. About one year later on November 1, 1955, Jacobi Hospital, opened its doors for pediatric and infant care, with 898 beds

 

img_10429_2_300.png

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On 11/26/2019 at 8:15 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Marina went with Lee on at least this occasion. We believe the purpose of that visit to the Furniture Mart was to set up the (bogus) sighting work done on a rifle in "Oswald's" name at the Irving Sports Shop, by Dial Ryder. All of this was to set up "Oswald", although I doubt that Marina fully understood what was going on. 

Paul:

When I was researching my Osborne story who alias was John Howard Bowen, I did some research on career criminal John Caesar Grossi who worked with Oswald at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. Was interested in Grossi because one of his many aliases was John Bowen. Ordered a copy of his prison record from Leavenworth prison where he was doing time for auto theft. James Earl Ray did time at Leavenworth in the 1950s but am not sure if they were there at the same time and knew each other. His prison record indicated that he mailed a check to F. Ryder at 305 E Cason St. Irving Texas. The 1954 Irving City Directory shows that Homer Ryder lives at that address, and the the 1940 US census states that Homer had a daughter named Fleta and son named Dial.  Looks like there is a connection between the bogus rifle work and Oswald's friend at JCS.

I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens.

Grossi.jpgIrving%20Dir%201954.png

1940 United States Federal Census

 

Name:

 

Homer R Ryder

Respondent:

 

Yes

Age:

 

43

Estimated Birth Year:

 

abt 1897

Gender:

 

Male

Race:

 

White

Birthplace:

 

Illinois

Marital Status:

 

Married

Relation to Head of House:

 

Head

Home in 1940:

 

German, Richland, Illinois

Street:

 

Claumont RFD 1

Farm:

 

Yes

Inferred Residence in 1935:

 

Rural, Richland, Illinois

Residence in 1935:

 

Rural Richland Illinois

Resident on farm in 1935:

 

Yes

Sheet Number:

 

8B

Number of Household in Order of Visitation:

 

152

Occupation:

 

Laborer

House Owned or Rented:

 

Rented

Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented:

 

5

Attended School or College:

 

No

Highest Grade Completed:

 

College, 1st year

Hours Worked Week Prior to Census:

 

40

Class of Worker:

 

Wage or salary worker in private work

Weeks Worked in 1939:

 

16

Income:

 

370

Household Members:

 

Name

 

Age

 

Homer R Ryder

43

Magdalena Ryder

38

Fleta Ryder

16

Issa Phene Ryder

13

Marcella Ryder

10

Mardella Ryder

5

Fern Ryder

3

Dial Ryder

2

 

Edited by John Kowalski

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Thanks David,

I don't see anything at this point that is in need of fixing.  Correct me if I am wrong, the first good record you have for Harvey is in July 7, 1947.  You have him at the Benbrook school in September, 1947.  Actually, the 1947-1948 school year.

That corresponds to what I have been researching.  If Harvey was in the 1st grade in 1947-48 he would have been 8 years if he was born in 1939 as was Lee.  Compulsory attendance was country wide for 6 year old childern to attend the 1st grade.  Either Harvey skipped those two years as a truant or he went to school somewhere else for 1945-46 and 1946-47.

That's what we are working on by trying to find the school records of John Gardos, also born 1939, in the years 1945-46 and 1946-47.  This wouldn't necessarily prove John Gardos is Harvey Oswald, but it could be an indicator that he might be.

I'm trying to build a set of circumstantial evidence that might lead to a reasonable conclusion that John Gardos is Harvey Oswald.  There is a lot of problems for that, but I haven't at this point found any evidence that will rule that out.

For various reasons, I think Harvey was maybe a few months younger than Lee.  This is based on their service records and promotions.  Lee's promotion record puts him at a guess about 3-6 months older than of Harvey.  If not older than Harvey, he succeeded in joining the Marines at age 16.  It is my contention that Lee joined the Marines some months before Harvey.

 

 

Edited by John Butler

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2 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks David,

I don't see anything at this point that is in need of fixing.  Correct me if I am wrong, the first good record you have for Harvey is in July 7, 1947.  You have him at the Benbrook school in September, 1947.  Actually, the 1947-1948 school year.

That corresponds to what I have been researching.  If Harvey was in the 1st grade in 1947-48 he would have been 8 years if he was born in 1939 as was Lee.  Compulsory attendance was country wide for 6 year old childern to attend the 1st grade.  Either Harvey skipped those two years as a truant or he went to school somewhere else for 1945-46 and 1946-47.

That's what we are working on by trying to find the school records of John Gardos, also born 1939, in the years 1945-46 and 1946-47.  This wouldn't necessarily prove John Gardos is Harvey Oswald, but it could be an indicator that he might be.

I'm trying to build a set of circumstantial evidence that might lead to a reasonable conclusion that John Gardos is Harvey Oswald.  There is a lot of problems for that, but I haven't at this point found any evidence that will rule that out.

 

 

Jim and John B:

Does New York state government keep records of students?

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John K,

I don't know whether the city government would do that.  I would think the School Board or a similar institution would be where to look for older records.   Where, I lived the county school board keeps the records from schools in the district.  I know this to be true since I have a sister who worked at the school board as a counselor.  She was able to go back and look at my school records of the 1950s.

Let's hope they don't purge records after a certain number of years like the medical profession. 

 

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

I checked the email this morning and have received David Joseph's timeline.  It is a marvelous piece of work.  A lot of hard work and time went into that.  I know since I did a time line of Oswalds in the military and started another for in Russia.  I will go back to my military timeline and see if I can add more to it.  Since my blunder with the rubles conversion I haven't done much on Russia.  There is something wrong with that business of the ruble conversions and I think I will go back and revisit that.

Earlier I asked a question why Marguerite decided to stay in NYC for a year or two more after she left the Pics.  Somebody said this was because she wanted him mentally tested.

 

This is what I said in an earlier post:

"“Its parity to the US dollar underwent a devaluation, however, from $1 = 4 old rubles (0.4 new ruble) to $1 = 0.9 new ruble (or 90 kopeks).”

I didn't mention, but Jim Hargroves did that the new ruble conversions take place after January, 1961.  Therefore, they would not apply to January, 1960.

If you look at the statement, 1 dollar equals 4 rubles.  Therefore one ruble would be worth 25 cents in the US in 1960.  That is the standard that should have been used. 

5000 rubles from the Red Cross in 1960 becomes $1250 in US dollars.  70 rubles becomes $17.50 and 700 rubles becomes $175 in US dollars.   It doesn't matter what goes on in 1961.  So, Mark and I are both wrong.

Now, maybe I can go back and work on that Russian timeline.

Edited by John Butler

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On 12/6/2019 at 9:57 AM, John Butler said:

Jim,

That's very interesting. I, too, have not initially found any references to another John Gardos born in 1939.  John Armstrong's friend gives the Census year, 1940,  wife, sons, birth dates, residence, and parents.  This should be an easily found  Census reference.  You say you have not been able to duplicate the source after two searches.  I haven't found that reference either in the Census Record of 1940 for John's friend's reference.  The closest I can get is a Joseph Gardo living at 63rd Drive, Queens, NY.  But, he is an Italian.

Maybe John's friend can be more forth coming with where he found this information.

I have an idea.  See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street.  Then check that school for John Gardos attendance.   HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946.  John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade.  He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years.  If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald.

Here's the reasoning for that.  I'm a retired school teacher.  The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility.  Why?  John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947).  This is too old for a 1st grade student.  This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946.

The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s.  Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade.  Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available.  Different states may vary a little on these procedures.  Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible.  In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year.  This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date.  I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available  at an age earlier age then 6 years.

Secondly, if possible, check the University of Wisconsin, Madison for the Fred Blair papers.  Box Number 5 has correspondence between Fred, Emil, and Grace.  I believe this covers the years in question.  This might be helpful.

 

 

 

John B and Jim:

There is a person on Deep Politics forum that lives about a one hour drive away from the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Has anyone gone there to look at their papers, if not I can contact him and ask him if he would be interested in making copies of these letters.

Had a look at the Blair papers finding aid, there is a lot of correspondence and a family history as well. A box and folder list should be made for anyone who plans to review the papers.

Edited by John Kowalski

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1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

John B and Jim:

There is a person on Deep Politics forum that lives about a one hour drive away from the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Has anyone gone there to look at their papers, if not I can contact him and ask him if he would be interested in making copies of these letters.

Had a look at the Blair papers finding aid, there is a lot of correspondence and a family history as well. A box and folder list should be made for anyone who plans to review the papers.

John K,

That sounds very interesting.  I have traveled by Madison many times on the way to Wyoming and Montana to hunt fossils and semi-precious gem stones.  This is the first year I have not made that trip.  Old age and fear of traffic accidents has put a stop to those trips.  Actually, the wife doesn't want to go any more. 

So, if you can get your person to make that trip and copy those papers would be great.  It might put an end to our research which would be good whatever the outcome. 

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3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks David,

I don't see anything at this point that is in need of fixing.  Correct me if I am wrong, the first good record you have for Harvey is in July 7, 1947.  You have him at the Benbrook school in September, 1947.  Actually, the 1947-1948 school year.

That corresponds to what I have been researching.  If Harvey was in the 1st grade in 1947-48 he would have been 8 years if he was born in 1939 as was Lee.  Compulsory attendance was country wide for 6 year old children to attend the 1st grade.  Either Harvey skipped those two years as a truant or he went to school somewhere else for 1945-46 and 1946-47.

That's what we are working on by trying to find the school records of John Gardos, also born 1939, in the years 1945-46 and 1946-47.  This wouldn't necessarily prove John Gardos is Harvey Oswald, but it could be an indicator that he might be.

I'm trying to build a set of circumstantial evidence that might lead to a reasonable conclusion that John Gardos is Harvey Oswald.  There is a lot of problems for that, but I haven't at this point found any evidence that will rule that out.

For various reasons, I think Harvey was maybe a few months younger than Lee.  This is based on their service records and promotions.  Lee's promotion record puts him at a guess about 3-6 months older than of Harvey.  If not older than Harvey, he succeeded in joining the Marines at age 16.  It is my contention that Lee joined the Marines some months before Harvey.

 

 

Looking at David's timeline he has Lee going into the 3rd grade in 1948-1949 at Arlington.  For his second grade he was in various schools.  I actually had the difference between Harvey and Lee at 2 school years.  David's timeline makes better sense of the situation.  There is one years difference between the school grades of Harvey and Lee.  This is smoothed out later.

David has Lee in several schools before Arlington:

1945-46-  Benbrook, TX 1st grade

1946- Covington, LA 1st grade

1946-47- Covington, LA 1st grade

1946- Zion Lutheran Sunday 1st grade

1946- Lily Clayton  1st grade

1946-47 Lily Clayton 1st grade

1947-1948 Lily Clayton 2nd grade

1948- George Clark Elem 2nd grade

1948-1949- Arlington 3rd grade

……….

1947-1948 Benbrook, TX 1st grade Harvey

This means Harvey may have been somewhere else for the period 1945-1946 and 1946-1947.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Paul:

When I was researching my Osborne story who alias was John Howard Bowen, I did some research on career criminal John Caesar Grossi who worked with Oswald at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. Was interested in Grossi because one of his many aliases was John Bowen. Ordered a copy of his prison record from Leavenworth prison where he was doing time for auto theft. James Earl Ray did time at Leavenworth in the 1950s but am not sure if they were there at the same time and knew each other. His prison record indicated that he mailed a check to F. Ryder at 305 E Cason St. Irving Texas. The 1954 Irving City Directory shows that Homer Ryder lives at that address, and the the 1940 US census states that Homer had a daughter named Fleta and son named Dial.  Looks like there is a connection between the bogus rifle work and Oswald's friend at JCS.

I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens.

Grossi.jpgIrving%20Dir%201954.png

1940 United States Federal Census

 

Name:

 

Homer R Ryder

Respondent:

 

Yes

Age:

 

43

Estimated Birth Year:

 

abt 1897

Gender:

 

Male

Race:

 

White

Birthplace:

 

Illinois

Marital Status:

 

Married

Relation to Head of House:

 

Head

Home in 1940:

 

German, Richland, Illinois

Street:

 

Claumont RFD 1

Farm:

 

Yes

Inferred Residence in 1935:

 

Rural, Richland, Illinois

Residence in 1935:

 

Rural Richland Illinois

Resident on farm in 1935:

 

Yes

Sheet Number:

 

8B

Number of Household in Order of Visitation:

 

152

Occupation:

 

Laborer

House Owned or Rented:

 

Rented

Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented:

 

5

Attended School or College:

 

No

Highest Grade Completed:

 

College, 1st year

Hours Worked Week Prior to Census:

 

40

Class of Worker:

 

Wage or salary worker in private work

Weeks Worked in 1939:

 

16

Income:

 

370

Household Members:

 

Name

 

Age

 

Homer R Ryder

43

Magdalena Ryder

38

Fleta Ryder

16

Issa Phene Ryder

13

Marcella Ryder

10

Mardella Ryder

5

Fern Ryder

3

Dial Ryder

2

 

Great work, John.

Hmm.

So John Caesar Grossi, alias "John Bowen" (the same alias used by Albert Osborne in 1963! ) seemingly knew 31-year old Fleta Ryder - who apparently still lived in her parents' home - well enough to send her a check for $47 when he got out of prison the week before Christmas in December of 1955. This woman had a younger brother, Dial, who found the work order for a rifle in the name of "Oswald" at the Irving Sports Shop a few days after the assassination. 

The question is, who dropped off a rifle in the name of "Oswald" to be bore-sighted and "tapped" in the first week or two of November? 

(Undoubtedly the same man who visited the Furniture Mart in search of a gunsmith. Whitworth and Hunter referred him to the Irving Sports Shop.)

The Warren Commission never showed the Mannlicher-Carcano to Dial Ryder, nor did they dare ask him the simple question: "Did you work on this rifle?"

Why not?

Because they suspected/knew he'd deny it, and then they would have to address an obvious conspiracy to frame "Oswald", which of course they wanted to hide.

John K., is there any chance you could dig up a picture of John Caesar Grossi from the 1950's or 1960's? 

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Fascinating!

Is it possible that John Caesar Grossi and Albert Osborne/”John Bowen” of the infamous Flecha Roja bus ride allegedly with Oswald aboard are one and the same?  Do we know enough about the ages of these people (or person) to see if this is possible?

The Dial Ryder connection is also fascinating.  There are already too many coincidences here.
 

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16 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

John B and Jim:

There is a person on Deep Politics forum that lives about a one hour drive away from the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Has anyone gone there to look at their papers, if not I can contact him and ask him if he would be interested in making copies of these letters.

Had a look at the Blair papers finding aid, there is a lot of correspondence and a family history as well. A box and folder list should be made for anyone who plans to review the papers.

I agree entirely with John B.  If the Deep Politics participant has the time to examine the Blair papers in Madison, it might be really helpful.  

Is this fellow knowledgeable about the report of the anonymous phone call to the Tippits and the Gardos family questions we have posed here?  If there is a big volume of correspondence, he hopefully knows what to look for.

If we made a list of suggested references to watch for, would that be helpful to the fellow, or would that be unnecessary?  For example,

Any reference to Oswald, obviously, and
Any reference to John Gardos, son of Emil and Grace,

Any reference to any other young boy living with or often in the company of Emil (or Grace) Gardos.

Also, I sent a note to the reference department of the New York Public Library yesterday asking this:

Quote

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in 1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

 

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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At this time we can say there is no evidence that Grace A. Blair Gardos, wife of Emil Gardos, and mother of John Gardos had any other children.  At this point in time there is no evidence for children other than John Gardos.  The following evidence bears on this point.

grace-gardos-1966-hungary.jpg

and, the second page

grace-gardos-1966-hungary-1a.jpg 

My first thoughts on this FBI document is this puts to rest the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection speculation.  I will put this out on the forum tomorrow and that will be the end of the matter.  This information has been out there for a while, but I don't think any one realized its significance.

But, the ugly gods of controversy and uncertainty raised their ugly heads.  Although very suggestive, it is not conclusive proof that would put an end to John Gardos as Harvey Oswald notion.  Grace may have had other children.  She may have had other sons.  How likely is that there would be a single child in a long term marriage in the days before good birth control.  On the other hand Grace may have had a medical condition that precluded having other children.  This is part of the uncertainty.  I am sure others can think of other things.

This document, as another Emil / Grace document, was marked as Top Secret and marked to avoid downgrading and declassification.  Why would this be such a big secret matter to the FBI?

The first page indicates that Emil is retired and living on a pension in Budapest.  In 1966 Emil would be 65 years old.  Perhaps, his retirement pension was from Social Security earned in the US, or it could be something different.  A pension from the newspaper The Worker?  A pension from the US government for being a long term FBI informant?  A pension from the Communist authorities in Hungary for being a good life long communist? 

Obviously, this desire on the part of Grace Gardos fell through.  She died in Hungary in November, 1981.  Her last known residence was the American Consulate in Budapest. 

That's a bit strange for a good life long commie.  Or, was she?  There is to much uncertainty at this time.

The Fred Blair papers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison may shed light on her family and its members.  For various reasons, age and health, being primary I can't make the trip to Madison, WI.  If this information had come to light a year of two ago this wouldn't be a big deal. 

 

Edited by John Butler

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20 minutes ago, John Butler said:

At this time we can say there is no evidence that Grace A. Blair Gardos, wife of Emil Gardos, and mother of John Gardos had any other children.  At this point in time there is no evidence for children other than John Gardos.  The following evidence bears on this point.

grace-gardos-1966-hungary.jpg

and, the second page

grace-gardos-1966-hungary-1a.jpg 

My first thoughts on this FBI document is this puts to rest the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection speculation.  I will put this out on the forum tomorrow and that will be the end of the matter.  This information has been out there for a while, but I don't think any one realized its significance.

But, the ugly gods of controversy and uncertainty raised their ugly heads.  Although very suggestive, it is not conclusive proof that would put an end to John Gardos as Harvey Oswald notion.  Grace may have had other children.  She may have had other sons.  How likely is that there would be a single child in a long term marriage in the days before good birth control.  On the other hand Grace may have had a medical condition that precluded having other children.  This is part of the uncertainty.  I am sure others can think of other things.

This document, as another Emil / Grace document, was marked as Top Secret and marked to avoid downgrading and declassification.  Why would this be such a big secret matter to the FBI?

The first page indicates that Emil is retired and living on a pension in Budapest.  In 1966 Emil would be 65 years old.  Perhaps, his retirement pension was from Social Security earned in the US, or it could be something different.  A pension from the newspaper The Worker?  A pension from the US government for being a long term FBI informant?  A pension from the Communist authorities in Hungary for being a good life long communist? 

Obviously, this desire on the part of Grace Gardos fell through.  She died in Hungary in November, 1981.  Her last known residence was the American Consulate in Budapest. 

That's a bit strange for a good life long commie.  Or, was she?  There is to much uncertainty at this time.

The Fred Blair papers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison may shed light on her family and its members.  For various reasons, age and health, being primary I can't make the trip to Madison, WI.  If this information had come to light a year of two ago this wouldn't be a big deal. 

 

John,

I agree that while this document does not absolutely rule out little John Gardos growing up to become our "Oswald" (Harvey), it makes it very, very unlikely.

Which happens to be something that I have long suspected - that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of Emil and Grace Gardos, BUT somehow, however briefly, he was indeed connected to/associated with them in NYC at some point, probably between 1945 and 1946. (John Armstrong has argued, persuasively in my view, that our "Oswald" was living with a "Marguerite" by the fall of 1947, attending Benbrook Elementary in Ft. Worth, while Lee attended Lily Clayton Elementary.)

There is something here about these people, but the connection to our "Oswald" may not necessarily be biological.

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