EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

51 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

I agree that while this document does not absolutely rule out little John Gardos growing up to become our "Oswald" (Harvey), it makes it very, very unlikely.

Which happens to be something that I have long suspected - that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of Emil and Grace Gardos, BUT somehow, however briefly, he was indeed connected to/associated with them in NYC at some point, probably between 1945 and 1946. (John Armstrong has argued, persuasively in my view, that our "Oswald" was living with a "Marguerite" by the fall of 1947, attending Benbrook Elementary in Ft. Worth, while Lee attended Lily Clayton Elementary.)

There is something here about these people, but the connection to our "Oswald" may not necessarily be biological.

Paul,

I agree.  At best from the evidence we have we could only build a weak circumstantial evidence case which folks would have to agree on.  I have no disagreement with John Armstrong.  I had worked out from John Armstrong's evidence for both Oswald's being in school early on that 8 year old Lee Oswald was two years in school ahead of 8 year old Harvey.  This was an inaccurate reading of what John Armstrong was saying.  I misread it because of the records complexity.  Lee had been retained probably in the 1st grade due to changing schools too many times.

Fortunately, David Josephs timeline showed I needed to correct that to one year.  Once again praise for David's work on that.  I know how hard and difficult it is to get a timeline sequence correct. 

Further evidence on all scenarios is needed.  As I believe there are about 3 speculations on this Tippit phone call.  John Armstrongs, 20 or so years ago, Greg Parkers, 10 years or so ago, others like Stephen Gaal, and our recent effort in which I believe Fred Blair is the uncle of John Gardos and the brother in law of Emil.  That satisfies the Tippit phone call better than other notions.  However, it does nothing to help verify the mysterious caller claiming that Lee Harvey Oswald was the son of Emil Gardos and the nephew of Fred Blair.

That claim still has to be refuted or verified.  I recommend keeping the door open to look for other evidence.

 

[John Kowalski]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I agree entirely with John B.  If the Deep Politics participant has the time to examine the Blair papers in Madison, it might be really helpful.  

Is this fellow knowledgeable about the report of the anonymous phone call to the Tippits and the Gardos family questions we have posed here?  If there is a big volume of correspondence, he hopefully knows what to look for.

If we made a list of suggested references to watch for, would that be helpful to the fellow, or would that be unnecessary?  For example,

Any reference to Oswald, obviously, and
Any reference to John Gardos, son of Emil and Grace,

Any reference to any other young boy living with or often in the company of Emil (or Grace) Gardos.

Jim:

Just contacted the poster and will let everyone know what his answer is.

Not sure how knowledgeable he is about the Tippit call so I explained the event to him. He has posted on David's H&L thread on Deep Politics.

If he agrees to go to Madison we can all make suggestions about which boxes and file folders to review. I can make a list for him that would include everyone's suggestions.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Sounds like a good plan, John.  I think the Deep Politics fellow should also be made aware of the FBI document John B has been posting suggesting that John Gardos was living in Budapest in 1966.  If that's true, he was NOT Harvey Oswald and we will have to find another connection between Oswald and Emil Gardos.

Even if we definitively eliminate John Gardos as Harvey Oswald, studying the Blair papers might be extremely helpful.

Here's that document again:

[John Kowalski]

12 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John K., is there any chance you could dig up a picture of John Caesar Grossi from the 1950's or 1960's? 

Paul:

Newspaper reported his 1965 arrest and it has a picture.

https://archive.org/details/grossiarrest1965

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Is it possible that John Caesar Grossi and Albert Osborne/”John Bowen” of the infamous Flecha Roja bus ride allegedly with Oswald aboard are one and the same?  Do we know enough about the ages of these people (or person) to see if this is possible?

Jim:

No, they are 2 separate people. Albert Osborne was born in England in 1888 and served in the British Army before emigrating to the US in 1914. Grossi is US born. Osborne took the identity of a man named John Howard Bowen who was born in the US in 1880. Wrote a story about Osborne The Dual Life of Albert Osborne which is published on Kenendys and King. I was able to find a picture of the real John Howard Bowen and this is included in my story. Grossi had many aliases, one of which is John Bowen.

Grossi's Leavenworth prison record is below. It has a lot of info about him, his family and other connections.

https://archive.org/details/johngrossiprisonrecord

 

 

[John Butler]

Another thing about this FBI report from 1966, is did Grace Gardos and son return to the US?  She was a US citizen and the son, if John, was also.  I don't think the US could have denied them permission to return to the US. 

Would the FBI keep this kind of information updated on Emil and Grace Gardos for a period of over 30 years starting at their marriage?  They had been out of the country in Hungary since at least 1949-50.  This is a period of about 16 years.  Why were they still concerned with the Gardos and have to keep this under wraps with a Top Secret / do not declassify assignment?

What was it about the Gardos, or what did they know for this kind of FBI treatment?  As far as the records show they did not return to the US in 1966.  Did the FBI keep them from returning? 

Does anyone think that the son mentioned in this report may be a non-adult?  Grace wants to bring her son to the US?  John Gardos would be 27 years old and probably decide for himself if he wanted to return to the US.

This FBI document creates many questions that need answering. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

18 hours ago, John Butler said:

1947-1948 Benbrook, TX 1st grade Harvey

This means Harvey may have been somewhere else for the period 1945-1946 and 1946-1947.

LEE

1945-9-7  Grandbury Rd - R5 - Box 567Benbrook, TX 1st Benbrook Common School - 82/15Rental house with Ekdahl, MO, LEE

1945-10-31 Grandbury Rd - R5 - Box 567 Benbrook, TX 1st  Benbrook Common School - 82/15Address on enrollment card is "Worth Hotel" 7408 Ewing which is not bought until 1948.  MO lists LEE's Bday as July 19, 1939 to get into school

1946-2-8  Grandbury Rd - R5 - Box 567Benbrook, TX 1st  Mastoiditis surgery Harris Hospital

 

HARVEY

1947-9-5 Lucille HUBBARD drives MO to a house near Stripling to pick up furnitiure 2220 THOMAS PLACE
     Benbrook Common School 2nd grade Benbrook    101 San Saba / 2220 THOMAS PL

The Elementary school by 2220 Thomas was SOUTH HI MOUNT at 4101 Birchman... a 5 min walk.

No reason to assume that any and all records would be confiscated ala Frank Kudlaty....

============================

I'm going back over the timeline and bringing it more up to date on the Lee side prior to 1947....  I'll let you know what turns up

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

John K. said:

"I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens."

I've got a really good hunch as to who this mysterious benefactor/well-wisher/do-gooder might be. 

But first . . .

Here's what we know:

1. John Caesar Grossi was 28 in 1955, therefore he was a teenager in the mid-1940's. 

2. JCG was arrested in 1946 on a charge of impersonation when he was about 19 years old.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137338#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

3. JCG's files for 1944 (17 years old!) have a total of 47 pages that are "RESTRICTED IN FULL" pursuant to the JFK Records Act!!!!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137349#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137348#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137347#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137346#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137345#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137344#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137343#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137342#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137341#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137340#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137339#relPageId=2&tab=page

Because these are restricted files, I can't tell if any of them are duplicates. Even so, this guy has FBI files that are off limits from the mid 1960's, at least.

Why? Did the FBI recruit him as an informant, a source, a "PCI", a contact, or whatever the hell they call their guys? Why are they still hidden?

It is still mighty curious that Grossi was of such intense interest that his unknown benefactor from the WWII era had such clout that he could get him a job in a national security sensitive firm in 1963, right alongside our man "Oswald"! 

In any event, it's funny how over the years the same names keep popping up in this case . . .

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137321#relPageId=3&tab=page

Edited December 11, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Thanks David,

I see there was no need to smooth out the record later.  Both are in the 2nd grade in the 1947-48 school year at different schools.  This could be because Texas has a strict law on age, or children didn't start school until 7?  Lee or Harvey supposedly has a birth date of Oct. 18.  And, that may serve as a reason to deny first grade to a still 5 year old who would not be 6 when school started.  During this same time in KY schools would accept 5 year olds until the first of the following year. 

However, this still does not account for 1945-46 and 1946-47.  Harvey is 8 years old in the 1947-1948 school year.  Under this idea one still has to account for at least the first grade.  In a way you do with Harvey in NYC in 1947.  John Gardos may be Harvey or not.  It hasn't been refuted or denied yet.  The possibility that Harvey was an immigrant child placed with the Gardos is still open and viable. 

I find the Tippit call creditable from the FBI's reaction to it.  I find, because of the circumstances, the mysterious caller believable.  The information about Emil Gardos as the father, Grace A. Blair as the mother, and Fred Blair, Grace's Brother, as the uncle and brother in law are creditable.  This information has taken 20 years to develop and non of it was known until the 1990s by anyone but the FBI.  This means that the FBI did not think this was a crank call or a disinformation ploy.

I believe this is a true call and not a crank or disinformation call.  It is worth studying further keeping all options open.     

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

However, this still does not account for 1945-46 and 1946-47.  Harvey is 8 years old in the 1947-1948 school year.  Under this idea one still has to account for at least the first grade.  In a way you do with Harvey in NYC in 1947. 

I’d suggest, though, that if John Gardos was not Harvey, then we really don’t know Harvey’s exact age.  A number of witnesses from the 1950s in both NYC and New Orleans described him as a scrawny little kid, suggesting he could have been a little older than he appeared.  Look at his skinny arms in the Bronx Zoo photo.

Youth House psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs wrote that Harvey “had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps." That quote, among other things, has made us wonder if Harvey was an eastern European World War II orphan.

[David Josephs]

A few measurements related to that image.... 

the 5'4" 115lb boy ENTERING 7th grade Sept 1952 (inset)
the 4'10" 95lb boy ENTERING 9th grade Sept 1953 (photo by Robert Oswald August 1953)

Amazing how a 13 year old LARGE child becomes a scrawny, soon to be 15 year old who is not yet 5' tall....

{edit: look at his 6th grade class photo... remember? they put the tall kids in the back row, standing.. that's Lee in the back row
and everyone remembers him as the biggest kid in the grade, best fighter, and good friend.}

Edited December 11, 2019 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’d suggest, though, that if John Gardos was not Harvey, then we really don’t know Harvey’s exact age.  A number of witnesses from the 1950s in both NYC and New Orleans described him as a scrawny little kid, suggesting he could have been a little older than he appeared.  Look at his skinny arms in the Bronx Zoo photo.

Youth House psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs wrote that Harvey “had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps." That quote, among other things, has made us wonder if Harvey was an eastern European World War II orphan.

Sorry Jim,

I don't like to differ.  To me this is neither Harvey or Lee.  He doesn't look like either.  If you look at David Josephs photo comparison the Bronx Zoo kid does not look like Lee.  And, he certainly not like Harvey. 

This appears to be a typical middle school kid of about the 7 or 8th grade.  Depending on maturity he could be either.  I was around middle school kids for 25 years and over that time saw a lot of young boys, I should say young men, literally hundreds.  This kid is not scrawny he is the opposite.  He looks athletic and strong.  What he doesn't look like is Harvey or Lee.

Maturity in middle school kids is a bit strange.  There are all types of maturity levels.  I had a girl in the 8th grade who was 6'1.  I had a boy in the 7th grade, at age 13, that had to shave.  He was capable of growing a full beard.  I thought the kid was part of a welfare scam, but, the school board had already investigated the situation and he was 13.

This is Harvey Oswald as he was in the Marine Corps.  He appears to about 17 years old as if he had just entered the Marine Corps.  But, the photo was marked as April, 1959 when Harvey should have been 19 years old.

 

Maturity and appearance is hard to agree on.  You see a scrawny kid and I see an strong, fairly well built kid.  If John Gardos turns out to not be Harvey then you have made an excellent statement.  We won't know Harvey's age.  He could be a year younger than Lee.  I wouldn't think older.

I think the two entered the Marine Corps at different times.  The business of rank that I have discussed is significant saying it may have been 3 to 6 months difference in the time they entered the service.  I think Lee went first and Harvey followed when he became 17 or at least appeared to be 17.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

That’s interesting, John.  I’m sure the consensus among researchers is that the Bronx Zoo picture is of Lee Harvey Oswald, or at least one of them, but I value your opinion in these matters. Unfortunately, I’m terrible with faces.

The evidence suggests that Harvey Oswald DID spend a lot of time at the Bronx Zoo when he lived just three blocks from it at 825 E. 179th St.  In 1953, truant officer Victor Connell apprehended Harvey in the Bronx Zoo and returned him to school.  Robert Oswald volunteered while testifying to the WC that he took the picture of his “brother” at the zoo, prompting a reprimand from Jenner to just answer the questions.  John Pic said he didn’t recognize the photo of the kid in the Bronx Zoo photo, supposedly his own half-brother.

Of course, there should be no reason for Mr. Pic to recognize Harvey; they weren’t related.  I’ve thought for two decades that it was Harvey Oswald in the Bronx Zoo photo, but considering how much of the evidence in this case has been compromised, I wouldn’t bet the farm on it, though I'm still inclined to believe it's Harvey.

[John Kowalski]

20 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Why? Did the FBI recruit him as an informant, a source, a "PCI", a contact, or whatever the hell they call their guys? Why are they still hidden?

Paul:

You make a good point about Grossi being an informant. If he was informing on someone they would want to hide this and his connection to the FBI.

Grossi’s prison record, which is posted on this thread, has an entry for the time period in 1944 and it states “juvenile delinquency” while other entries show what crime he committed. The source for this entry is the FBI. Looks like they are trying to hide something about this crime.

This is speculation on my part but when I was researching Albert Osborne aka John Howard Bowen I discovered that he worked with juveniles while working with the Camp Fire Council. He helped create this organization in the 1930s in Knoxville, TN. It’s goal was to provide activities for young boys who would otherwise might get into trouble with the law. Could Osborne have been the person who mentored Grossi in his teens and then got him the job at JCS? If he was this person, this connection would be too much to ignore.

[John Butler]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That’s interesting, John.  I’m sure the consensus among researchers is that the Bronx Zoo picture is of Lee Harvey Oswald, or at least one of them, but I value your opinion in these matters. Unfortunately, I’m terrible with faces.

The evidence suggests that Harvey Oswald DID spend a lot of time at the Bronx Zoo when he lived just three blocks from it at 825 E. 179th St.  In 1953, truant officer Victor Connell apprehended Harvey in the Bronx Zoo and returned him to school.  Robert Oswald volunteered while testifying to the WC that he took the picture of his “brother” at the zoo, prompting a reprimand from Jenner to just answer the questions.  John Pic said he didn’t recognize the photo of the kid in the Bronx Zoo photo, supposedly his own half-brother.

Of course, there should be no reason for Mr. Pic to recognize Harvey; they weren’t related.  I’ve thought for two decades that it was Harvey Oswald in the Bronx Zoo photo, but considering how much of the evidence in this case has been compromised, I wouldn’t bet the farm on it, though I'm still inclined to believe it's Harvey.

Jim and I have talked about the Lee Oswald Bronx Zoo photo on several occasions.  We disagree, but it's ok for honest folk to have diverging opinions.  I dislike disagreeing with Jim since he is right more often than I am.

I agree that most people see the Bronx youth as Lee Harvey Oswald.  Brother Robert says I took the picture.  Half-brother John Pic says I cannot identify this person as Lee Oswald.  It may be because of what I am gong to discuss next. 

It is my contention that Lee Harvey Oswald has been edited out of the visual record.  This is done by substituting a photo of Harvey, or a photo composited of Harvey and Lee, or Lee and someone else.  There are a few things left from this editing process that we can identify as Lee Oswald (Lee Harvey Oswald).

And, this is what may be going on here.  Examine the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on the left side.  Look particularly at the ears.  One is much bigger than the other indicating that his is a composite photo.  It is a composite image of Lee Oswald and someone else.  The figure's right side is Lee Oswald (Lee Harvey Oswald).  The right ear does not have an earlobe and this is a characteristic trait of Lee Oswald.  The nose of the Oswald figure is large and broad.  I believe this is brought about by compositing features from two photos.

This is the same kind of feature we see in the Bronx youth.  His nose's broad width and size may be a compositing feature.  This relates him to the Marine Oswald on the left.

I don't see any signs of compositing in the Bronx photo.  That doesn't mean that compositing didn't happen.  An Alternative suggestion might be that at one time the Marine photo on the left was adjusted to look like the youth in the Bronx photo.  Or, both were adjusted with this feature.

It is my opinion that the photo of the left is formed from a photo of Lee Oswald.  In comparison Harvey has earlobes which we see in this photo.  He has a longer narrower nose. Neither person featured above has a minor cleft in their chin.  This man does.  This man pictured below is not Lee Harvey Oswald.  And, we really don't know who this man is.  We are currently trying to identify who he is and his early history through the Tippit Call.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Butler