EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/5/2020 at 11:01 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

1. The simplest explanation is that the photo supplied by the Cubans to the HSCA was an artifact and not a real image captured outside the Cuban Consulate in 1963. Instead, at some later date, some CIA operative substituted the image of the "real Oswald impostor" (Lee? Someone else?) with this image of Leonov. The Cubans innocently then gave this switched image to the HSCA, even though it was inauthentic.

However, that "simple" explanation is not very convincing to me.

Another possibility is that the image at the top of your webpage   is not, in fact of Leonov at all, but of a Leonov impostor, probably from the CIA. This has a kind of logic to it: the plotters knew that our "Oswald" (Harvey) never went to Mexico City, but they deliberately planned the impersonation there to FAIL , thus revealing that the "Oswald" impersonator was . . . a known Soviet operative/official! A man who was a close personal confidant of both Castro and Khrushchev - a perfect patsy himself! Thus implicating the USSR in the assassination, somehow . . .

But I don't like that one, either. Too messy, and anyway, the guy doesn't merely resemble Leonov, he is the spitting image of Leonov!

 

Maybe Dick Russell was on to something when he wrote that Richard Case Nagell was working with Soviet intelligence to kill Oswald and stop the assassination. I don't fully trust Nagell as a source, but could the Soviets have been aware that something funny involving somebody posing as "Oswald" was going on inside the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27? And if they did, would they react immediately once they realized that "Oswald" had this bizarre history in the USSR himself? Could a highly trusted Spanish speaking Soviet official have been dispatched by Khrushchev himself to investigate???

That seems doubtful, too, but I just don't have any other ideas at the moment. 

We'll have to leave it for now with the agreement that, whoever he was, he sure looked a heckuva lot like Leonov!

 

2. The identifications by the radio station guys as our "Oswald" may not be 100% based on their memories of the man's appearance, but instead may be based on the fact that the guy used the name "Lee Oswald." After all, Parker did note a difference in hair color, a difference picked up by several witnesses. You and I agree that the south Texas LHO was not our "Oswald" up in Dallas, being interviewed by Laura Kittrell at TEC. 

3. and 4.

You and I agree that our Dallas "Oswald" was very probably outside Sylvia Odio's door in Dallas on 9/25/63. We agree that our "Oswald" was at the TEC in Dallas on Thursday, October 3.  We agree that there is no convincing evidence that our "Oswald" went to Mexico City at all in the interim. So, since he really was at the Dallas YMCA the night of Thursday, October 3, isn't it probable that his handlers had put him up there for the entire week before while his doppelganger was down in Mexico City? (There is no reason why they should have put him up in a nicer lodging for a few days, and then switched him to the YMCA for the last night. Instead, I bet he was there all along.) 

5. I don't know what language the "wife" of LHO was speaking down in south Texas/Alice, but nobody claimed it was Russian. There is no reason to assume the Marina impostor was speaking Russian. She and her "husband" may have been speaking something as simple as garbled Spanish. (Or not, but it doesn't matter. It wasn't Marina.)

6. You wrote "does that mean there was a fellow, perhaps going by the name “Lee Oswald,” being prepared for a job in a building along the parade route?  Would someone who looked like him have gone to local rifle ranges to shoot at other people’s targets, and so on?  Mrs. Paine called Roy Truly on Oct. 15 to start the process in motion to put Classic Oswald® in the TSBD, so the timing here makes complete sense."

Yessir! That's exactly what I think!

Had the plotters decided on San Antonio or Houston, then you bet there would have been a host of weird "Oswald" sightings wielding a rifle in either city! These south Texas/Alice sightings below were some of the CIA's "backstopping" of the tentative (and ultimately discarded) "Oswald" San Antonio story:

I. The unnamed, not interviewed by the FBI waitress at the B.F. Cafe in Freer Texas whose boss told the FBI that the "Oswald" she met wanted a job in Freer, and asked specifically how far it was to San Antonio. When told it was 100 miles, this "Oswald" reacted in surprise. (The FBI did NOT want any confirmation of this one!)

II. Martha Doyle and Joan Dunsmore of the San Antonio International Airport statement:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96293&relPageId=4&search=Martha_Doyle

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96293&relPageId=7&search=Joan_Dunsmore

III. The Stanley Moczygemba account about picking up a hitchhiking "Oswald" early on Saturday morning, October 5 in San Antonio and driving south to Leming, Texas.

 

And here are some examples of witness statements about the CIA's tentative and ultimately discarded plan to backstop the "Oswald" in Houston story:

 From John Armstrong's 1997 speech to C'OPA:

I.
 A few days later an "Oswald" applied for a job at the Continental Oil
Company in Houston. This person identified himself as "Lee Oswald" and
was interviewed by Mrs. Sheppard. He told her he had just returned from
Mexico with a friend and that they had tried to proceed from Mexico to
Cuba. Oswald told her he was staying at the Savoy apartments two blocks
away.

II. 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9986&relPageId=63&search=Continental_oil Company

III. 
A Houston Chronicle article stating that Oswald stayed at the Savoy for a few days in late September of 1963 while interviewing at Conoco.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Before-it-turned-into-Holiday-Inn-Savoy-Hotel-4583519.php#item-85307-tbla-25


IV.
George Ryan, manager of the Stop-N-Go drive-in grocery in Houston told
the FBI that Oswald tried on three successive days to cash a $65 check at
his store. He told the Houston Press he was under orders from the FBI not
to discuss the case.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477&relPageId=662&search=George_Ryan

 

So, I am positive that in the Alice/south Texas stories we are looking at the vestiges of the unused backstopped stories of "Oswald's" movements in the days before he would have settled in with a job in either San Antonio or Houston. But once the plotters decided on Dallas (after October 5 but before October 15), then none of these sightings of the false "Oswald" in south Texas/Alice were useful to the plotters.

And so these witnesses were ignored. 

"Backstopping" has long been a very important intelligence concept: 

http://intelligenceref.blogspot.com/2010/08/backstop.html

 

Paul,

I’ve been trying for five or six days to respond to your post above.  Here’s my first attempt at a real reply.

1.  Dick Russell is a major H&L supporter.  Back in 1993, in Confessions of a Conspiracy Theorist, he wrote, “Not only do we encounter double- and triple-agents, but double- and triple-Oswalds.”   I spent a full day with Mr. Russell a year or two ago but neglected to ask him which Oswald he thought Nagell knew, though it is obvious that Nagell interacted with American-born Lee Oswald, not Classic Oswald®.

Your thoughts about the Leonov-looking “Oswald” at the Cuban Consulate are interesting, and I wish I could offer better, or even comparable, theories.  As so often occurs to me in this case, it all seems to boil down to the question of whose spies do we distrust the least, the answer, of course, being none.

2.  Remember, though, that Sonny Stewart at KOPY told the AP (unfiltered by our friends at the Bureau): “It’s a strange thing.... The first time I saw Oswald’s picture on TV I recognized him.  It was like a song that you can’t remember the name. When it finally hit me who it was I almost fell on the floor.”

There’s no doubt, though, that the mind can play strange tricks on all of us, but that visual ID at least SOUNDED pretty good.

Does it bother me that I’m suggesting the Associated Press is a Trusted Source® in this case?  Sheesh!

3 and 4.  We agree on a lot here, though I’m not convinced Harvey stayed at the YMCA longer than that Thursday night.  As always, I seek a scintilla of evidence for other dates of his stay.

5.  Indeed, whoever it was, it wasn’t our Marina.

6.  Obviously, some of these purported sightings are more convincing than others, just as anyone would suspect.  The evidence you present, though, is compelling and mostly new to me.  I’ll get back to you ASAP on this.  Thanks for the info, especially about intel “backstoppings.”  I’m still reading.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 1/11/2020 at 8:40 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

I’ve been trying for five or six days to respond to your post above.  Here’s my first attempt at a real reply.

1.  Dick Russell is a major H&L supporter.  Back in 1993, in Confessions of a Conspiracy Theorist, he wrote, “Not only do we encounter double- and triple-agents, but double- and triple-Oswalds.”   I spent a full day with Mr. Russell a year or two ago but neglected to ask him which Oswald he thought Nagell knew, though it is obvious that Nagell interacted with American-born Lee Oswald, not Classic Oswald®.

Your thoughts about the Leonov-looking “Oswald” at the Cuban Consulate are interesting, and I wish I could offer better, or even comparable, theories.  As so often occurs to me in this case, it all seems to boil down to the question of whose spies do we distrust the least, the answer, of course, being none.

2.  Remember, though, that Sonny Stewart at KOPY told the AP (unfiltered by our friends at the Bureau): “It’s a strange thing.... The first time I saw Oswald’s picture on TV I recognized him.  It was like a song that you can’t remember the name. When it finally hit me who it was I almost fell on the floor.”

There’s no doubt, though, that the mind can play strange tricks on all of us, but that visual ID at least SOUNDED pretty good.

Does it bother me that I’m suggesting the Associated Press is a Trusted Source® in this case?  Sheesh!

3 and 4.  We agree on a lot here, though I’m not convinced Harvey stayed at the YMCA longer than that Thursday night.  As always, I seek a scintilla of evidence for other dates of his stay.

5.  Indeed, whoever it was, it wasn’t our Marina.

6.  Obviously, some of these purported sightings are more convincing than others, just as anyone would suspect.  The evidence you present, though, is compelling and mostly new to me.  I’ll get back to you ASAP on this.  Thanks for the info, especially about intel “backstoppings.”  I’m still reading.

 

Jim,

A few things:

1. I agree that IF Richard Case Nagell did interact with either LHO, it had to be Lee. I've never understood how in the world the Soviets could possibly have uncovered an assassination plot against JFK using LHO well before Nagell was arrested in El Paso on September 20, 1963! That seems awfully improbable.

What was absolutely impossible was Nagell's later claim (while in custody) that "he did not want to be in Dallas." 

We know that Dallas was not selected finally as the city until long after Nagell was arrested. So unless someone believes that Nagell was still collecting information on the impending assassination while he was sitting in federal jail (!), then any such claim (that he was privy to the assassination location) is false.

2. I agree that Sonny Stewart's identification does seem to be based on physical recognition, but since I can't find police/FBI/Secret Service statement with him, we can't say for certain upon what exactly Steward based his identification of "Oswald." We have no other real evidence that our "Oswald" was actually in South Texas in early October. 

3. If, as I suspect, our "Oswald" did indeed stay at the YMCA in downtown Dallas for a week or so before Thursday, October 3, then I am certain the FBI would have destroyed any evidence of that. After all, they were trying to make the case that "Oswald" had made this bizarre trip to Mexico City right at that very moment, and NOT holed up at the YMCA in Dallas! But I agree, we don't have any evidence one way or another where he stayed in the nights before October 3. 

But since he was in Dallas on Wednesday, September 25 (at the Dallas Circle Apartments) and in Dallas (at the Y) on October 3, and since we have no other credible sightings for him in the interim, I think it remains a solid bet he was at the Y the whole time.

6. This Atlanta LHO sighting (from an unknown date, but recorded on December 4, 1963) is provocative. Permit me to speculate here:

The witness, a Mrs. Elaine Glosson, claimed that "Oswald" stayed at her Atlanta-area motel for a few days at some point before the assassination. Her description matches the South Texas/Alice LHO ("cocky", shabbily dressed, unshaven), but with a pearl-handled revolver. This LHO apparently had some connection to Birmingham, Alabama.

That makes me wonder if this LHO appeared in Atlanta/Birmingham sometime in the late spring/early summer of 1963. After all, JFK's famous Civil Rights Speech of June 11, 1963, was in response to Bull Connor's violence directed at Civil Rights protesters that spring. We've all seen the images - did the plotters anticipated that JFK might make an appearance in Birmingham and/or Atlanta at some point? And could this LHO appearance have been in preparation for such a visit?

Sounds possible to me, but without further evidence, we just can't say for sure.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24964-is-this-something-most-researchers-are-aware-of/

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

1. It’s pretty undeniable that evidence of Nagell’s knowledge of the plot pre-dating the assassination is murky at best, but, to me at least, it doesn’t make the timeline impossible.  Our “Oswald” was arrested in New Orleans on Aug 9, more than a month prior to Nagell’s arrest.  Regardless of how much faith we put into other plots in other cities, many researchers believe the Dallas plot was already underway when “Oswald” was publicly sheep-dipped in NOLA.  Even if Dallas was only selected later from among several candidates, isn't it possible that Nagell only knew about the Dallas plot?

2.  True enough, but if there once was evidence from G-men that put a fellow who called himself “Oswald” and looked like “Oswald” nearly 400 miles south of where the evidence shows he was on Oct. 3th and 4th, how could that wildly conflicting evidence be allowed to see the light of day?  

I once spent days going through just one roll from John A’s set of 33 rolls of microfilm from the “FBI Series 2” set published in 1978 by UMI.  All of them were allegedly related to the JFK assassination. There were documents shown in the roll I studied not only from the FBI but from the Secret Service, State Department, Treasury Department, and quite possibly local police departments, though I don’t remember that specifically.  Hoover had every opportunity to muck around with virtually ALL the documentary evidence, certainly documents from the Feds.  From his activities in the hours after the assassination confiscating school and early employment records of “Oswald,” it’s obvious Hoover was trying to cover-up the real story of LHO.

3. No question that if ANY LHO was in Dallas when ANY LHO was supposed to be in Mexico, that evidence had to disappear, but  I don’t remember the story about the Dallas Circle Apartments on September 25.  That had to be right after New Orleans, or when Harvey was in transit to Texas. Does the evidence look convincing?

6.  If Mrs. Glosson was correct, the man with the valid-looking Texas driver’s license was probably LEE, as I said in the thread you linked.  Would the cover-up conspirators have risked putting out multiple “Oswalds” with multiple Texas driver’s licenses?  Seems too risky to me.  The fact that the Warren Commission attorneys couldn’t go to the bother of calling the Texas Dep’t of Public Safety license records department when they had Marina and the Furniture Mart ladies arguing about “Oswald’s” driving history speaks volumes.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[Paul Jolliffe]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

1. It’s pretty undeniable that evidence of Nagell’s knowledge of the plot pre-dating the assassination is murky at best, but, to me at least, it doesn’t make the timeline impossible.  Our “Oswald” was arrested in New Orleans on Aug 9, more than a month prior to Nagell’s arrest.  Regardless of how much faith we put into other plots in other cities, many researchers believe the Dallas plot was already underway when “Oswald” was publicly sheep-dipped in NOLA.  Even if Dallas was only selected later from among several candidates, isn't it possible that Nagell only knew about the Dallas plot?

2.  True enough, but if there once was evidence from G-men that put a fellow who called himself “Oswald” and looked like “Oswald” nearly 400 miles south of where the evidence shows he was on Oct. 3th and 4th, how could that wildly conflicting evidence be allowed to see the light of day?  

I once spent days going through just one roll from John A’s set of 33 rolls of microfilm from the “FBI Series 2” set published in 1978 by UMI.  All of them were allegedly related to the JFK assassination. There were documents shown in the roll I studied not only from the FBI but from the Secret Service, State Department, Treasury Department, and quite possibly local police departments, though I don’t remember that specifically.  Hoover had every opportunity to muck around with virtually ALL the documentary evidence, certainly documents from the Feds.  From his activities in the hours after the assassination confiscating school and early employment records of “Oswald,” it’s obvious Hoover was trying to cover-up the real story of LHO.

3. No question that if ANY LHO was in Dallas when ANY LHO was supposed to be in Mexico, that evidence had to disappear, but  I don’t remember the story about the Dallas Circle Apartments on September 25.  That had to be right after New Orleans, or when Harvey was in transit to Texas. Does the evidence look convincing?

6.  If Mrs. Glosson was correct, the man with the valid-looking Texas driver’s license was probably LEE, as I said in the thread you linked.  Would the cover-up conspirators have risked putting out multiple “Oswalds” with multiple Texas driver’s licenses?  Seems too risky to me.  The fact that the Warren Commission attorneys couldn’t go to the bother of calling the Texas Dep’t of Public Safety license records department when they had Marina and the Furniture Mart ladies arguing about “Oswald’s” driving history speaks volumes.

 

Jim,

You asked " Even if Dallas was only selected later from among several candidates, isn't it possible that Nagell only knew about the Dallas plot?"

The answer of course, is theoretically yes, Nagell may have known only of the Dallas plot. 

However, I highly doubt that.

Nagell never met our "Oswald", although he may (MAY) have met the real LHO. Nagell claimed to the FBI that he met LHO in both Texas and Mexico City. We know that the Dallas "Oswald" never went to Mexico City, and the evidence that the real Lee Oswald went there in late September of 1963 is not very good either (no pictures, no clear witness identifications, no clear travel records - thanks David Joseph! - no good hotel records, nothing . . .)

So, who (if anyone) did Nagell meet, and when?

Well, if Nagell really was in Mexico City and really did encounter the real LHO, then it had to be before September 20, 1963, the date of Nagell's arrest in El Paso. 

That is vaguely possible because we have two witnesses who also state that the LHO they met had been in Mexico: the barber Clifford Shasteen, and (much more dubiously) Robert Clayton Buick.

Shasteen, the Dallas barber who claimed to have cut LHO's hair on several occasions in the early fall of 1963, stated that LHO had a pair of yellow house shoes that he had purchased in "Old Mexico" for a "dollar, a dollar and a half." "I'll get you a pair the next time I am down there" said this LHO to Shasteen. Since the timing did not fit, the FBI placed no credence in Shasteen's account (especially since Shasteen had LHO driving a vehicle which seemed to be from Ruth Paine's house.)

Yet we know that Shasteen's account fits the H&L scenario perfectly.

Further, most researchers have no idea what to make of the convict/B.S.'er/felon/spy? Robert Clayton Buick's account of meeting LHO in Mexico City in  September of 1963. I suppose it just might (MIGHT) have some truth to it: Buick really may have met LHO there then. And if so, that just might support Nagell's claim to have met LHO. Neither man could have met our "Oswald" in Mexico City, but it is possible they met someone - the real LHO at some point.

So, the real LHO may have been in Mexico City in the early/mid part of September, 1963. However, neither the Warren Commission nor the FBI nor anyone else ever came up with any good evidence at all that either our "Oswald" or the real LHO was there between September 26 and October 2, 1963. I doubt that either LHO was there - if either one was there, that evidence would have been presented long, long ago. Instead, we are left with the crappiest, flimsiest pieces of  . . . to work with.

To sum up:

Jim, we have powerful evidence that the assassination plot involved multiple possible cities: Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Miami, Chicago (possibly Washington D.C.?), etc. We have no evidence that Dallas had been selected in time for Nagell to have known of it. I doubt he had been told of the location, although he may have met the real LHO at some point, possibly in early September in Mexico City.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10601#relPageId=2&tab=page

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/12/robert-c-buick.html

[Ron Bulman]

If Dallas wasn't selected at least a couple of months in advance why was LHO sent there from New Orleans when he was?  Why did Dulles visit there for the first time ever a month before?  To promote his book, one of only two cities he claimed to have done so in?  A coincidence? 

I think Chicago and Florida were smoke and mirrors meant to confuse JFK and "Security", including rumors, thus Milteer/an office building(Florida), and unwitting actors in Chicago calling in ("Lee"), people escaping, the guy  with the gun and trunk full of ammo that worked in a building overlooking the route.  False threats. 

But after seeing the Dallas paper the morning of 11/22/63 even JFK was convinced any nut with a rifle could do it.  Or so he told Jackie.  In Dallas.  Where Dallas Morning News owner Dealy had called him a leader on a tricycle to his face in Washington.  Where Adali Stevenson was spat upon and hit with a placard.  Where LBJ as his running mate and Ladybird were harassed.  Where H L Hunt and Reverend Criswell preached against him weekly.  Where General Cabell he'd fired from the CIA and his brother the mayor as well as the by then discredited General Walker lived.

He knew it was a dangerous place.  Probably thought he had survived the threat when the rounded the corner from Main onto Houston and Nellie Connally said "You can't say Dallas Doesn't Love you Mr. President".  But the Secret Service let him down.

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

If Dallas wasn't selected at least a couple of months in advance why was LHO sent there from New Orleans when he was?  Why did Dulles visit there for the first time ever a month before?  To promote his book, one of only two cities he claimed to have done so in?  A coincidence? 

I think Chicago and Florida were smoke and mirrors meant to confuse JFK and "Security", including rumors, thus Milteer/an office building(Florida), and unwitting actors in Chicago calling in ("Lee"), people escaping, the guy  with the gun and trunk full of ammo that worked in a building overlooking the route.  False threats. 

But after seeing the Dallas paper the morning of 11/22/63 even JFK was convinced any nut with a rifle could do it.  Or so he told Jackie.  In Dallas.  Where Dallas Morning News owner Dealy had called him a leader on a tricycle to his face in Washington.  Where Adali Stevenson was spat upon and hit with a placard.  Where LBJ as his running mate and Ladybird were harassed.  Where H L Hunt and Reverend Criswell preached against him weekly.  Where General Cabell he'd fired from the CIA and his brother the mayor as well as the by then discredited General Walker lived.

He knew it was a dangerous place.  Probably thought he had survived the threat when the rounded the corner from Main onto Houston and Nellie Connally said "You can't say Dallas Doesn't Love you Mr. President".  But the Secret Service let him down.

Ron,

We can't say for certain specifically when or how our "Oswald" left New Orleans. We don't know precisely where he went. We all agree (I think) that he did NOT go to Mexico City, but exactly where he was in late September is murky. I personally do believe he really was in Dallas by Wednesday, September 25 - the Sylvia Odio story about meeting "Oswald" in the company of two unknown men outside her Dallas Circle Apartments is persuasive to me. Jim Hargrove and I agree that our "Oswald" did indeed stay at the Dallas YMCA on Thursday, October 3. Was he staying at the Dallas YMCA the entire 8 days? I think it is likely, but any evidence of that (if he was there) is long gone. 

I think there is pretty good evidence (from our discussion last week) that the Alice/South Texas "Oswald" sightings on October 3 and 4 were the vestiges of an assassination plot in either San Antonio or Houston. I argued (persuasively, in my humble opinion) (!) that such sightings were the backstory to "Oswald's" movements had the plotters opted for either city. Since the last known south Texas "Oswald" sighting was on October 5 (a hitchhiking "Oswald" rode from San Antonio to Leming, Texas), I think it is safe to say that as of October 5, the final site - Dallas - had not yet been selected. 

Why San Antonio or Houston?

Because those were the two cities on JFK's Texas tour on November 21, 1963. However, once Dallas was selected, then all the south Texas/Alice witnesses had to be "mistaken" or ignored. Their statements were no longer useful to the emerging narrative; actually their statements were dangerous to it.

Note that I am not arguing that our patsy "Oswald" was actually driving around in south Texas on October 3-5, merely that he was being impersonated by someone who may have resembled him somewhat. I think if San Antonio or Houston had been selected, then our "Oswald" would have been placed at a job along the motorcade route in one of those cities.

Once Dallas was selected, our patsy "Oswald" then started work at the TSBD on October 16, and that was that. 

Also, as far as Allen Dulles in Dallas is concerned, David Talbot wrote in The Devil's Chessboard that Dulles' infamous book tour promo stop in Dallas was on October 29, 1963. This fits perfectly with what I've argued: Dallas was selected (from a list of possible cities) sometime between October 5 and October 15 (the day Ruth Paine placed her call to Roy Truly at the TSBD.)

Edited January 16, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I think Chicago and Florida were smoke and mirrors meant to confuse JFK and "Security", including rumors, thus Milteer/an office building(Florida), and unwitting actors in Chicago calling in ("Lee"), people escaping, the guy  with the gun and trunk full of ammo that worked in a building overlooking the route.  False threats. 

Ron,

For what it’s worth, I think John A. agrees with your statement above, at least if I’m remembering discussion(s) with him from a couple of years ago.  He felt those plots, if real, were designed to fail.

The fact that Paul J. believes differently gives me considerable pause, but it sure seems like a whole lot of effort was put into setting up the Russian-speaking Oswald as far back, and even earlier, than his Aug. 9 altercation with Bringuier, surely a staged event, along with the arrest and television interview.  

This Oswald’s U.S. stomping grounds were limited to New Orleans and Dallas and environs.  Moving the patsy to Chicago, Miami, or Houston just weeks before the hit might appear suspicious and could result in unanticipated consequences.  For the whole charade to work, Classic Oswald® just had to be in the right places at the right times, especially on 11/22/63.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[David Josephs]

14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I think Chicago and Florida were smoke and mirrors meant to confuse JFK and "Security", including rumors, thus Milteer/an office building(Florida), and unwitting actors in Chicago calling in ("Lee"), people escaping, the guy  with the gun and trunk full of ammo that worked in a building overlooking the route.  False threats. 

I think Abe Bolden would take issue with your statement Ron....  I assume you've read Black's "The Chicago Plot"... for those who have not, it's attached.

"Never believe anything in politics until it is officially denied"  I believe that every report related to Valle includes references to Oswald...

The Chicago Plot.pdf

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron,

For what it’s worth, I think John A. agrees with your statement above, at least if I’m remembering discussion(s) with him from a couple of years ago.  He felt those plots, if real, were designed to fail.

The fact that Paul J. believes differently gives me considerable pause, but it sure seems like a whole lot of effort was put into setting up the Russian-speaking Oswald as far back, and even earlier, than his Aug. 9 altercation with Bringuier, surely a staged event, along with the arrest and television interview.  

This Oswald’s U.S. stomping grounds were limited to New Orleans and Dallas and environs.  Moving the patsy to Chicago, Miami, or Houston just weeks before the hit might appear suspicious and could result in unanticipated consequences.  For the whole charade to work, Classic Oswald® just had to be in the right places at the right times, especially on 11/22/63.

Jim,

You and I agree that our "Oswald" was the pre-selected patsy. I think though we have been too long misled about the certainty of "Oswald's" movements immediately after New Orleans. None of us can say for sure exactly when or how "Oswald" left New Orleans, nor precisely where he next went. (He did NOT go to Mexico City!!!) (David Josephs proved that beyond any doubt years ago.)

I can't comment specifically on the legitimacy of the threats to JFK in Chicago or Miami, but they seemed to be real. Perhaps they were feints to fool JFK's security, but honestly, what's the evidence for that opinion? 

However there is NO evidence that the "Oswald" sightings between October 3 and 5 in south Texas/Alice were illegitimate - those witnesses really believed they had encountered someone calling himself "Lee Oswald." Those sightings were entirely consistent with a possible assassination in either San Antonio or Houston, but not Dallas. Which is precisely why those sightings later had to be ignored, distorted or suppressed!

That is very powerful evidence that the final city had not yet been decided.

As far as the Bringuier episode in New Orleans goes, well honestly, there is NOTHING in that entire scenario that meant that DALLAS was the selected city! That whole New Orleans Bringuier charade/debacle in August merely set up our "Oswald" as the patsy, NOT that DALLAS had already been chosen! 

If you believe otherwise, please show me the evidence.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe

[Paul Jolliffe]

31 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I think Abe Bolden would take issue with your statement Ron....  I assume you've read Black's "The Chicago Plot"... for those who have not, it's attached.

"Never believe anything in politics until it is officially denied"  I believe that every report related to Valle includes references to Oswald...

The Chicago Plot.pdf 242.84 kB · 0 downloads

I agree, David.

The Chicago Plot sure seems real to me - the fact that no arrests were made until just after JFK canceled his planned trip to Chicago (on Saturday morning!) tells me the assassination was a "go" until that moment. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph above, as well as much what follows.  Perhaps this view is overly simplistic, but . . . . 
 
Both Oswalds (H&L) had roots in Dallas.  Beautiful Marina and the couple’s growing family were in Dallas. Ruth Paine was in the Dallas area and, although she may not yet have put the future alleged assassin into the TSBD when Nagel opened fire in that bank, she was already closely involved with the family of the patsy-to-be.   George DeMohrenschldt  and/or other white Russians were in position to keep a watchful eye on Boris and Natasha, I mean Harvey and Marina.  Jack Ruby was in town as well, and apparently had been working with American-born Lee Oswald while Russian-speaking Oswald was in New Orleans framing himself.

If “Oswald” was to be the fall guy, why would you want to find a similar cast of characters in another city?  How could you be sure that uprooting “Oswald,” or even his whole family, to yet another city would not produce unintended consequences?

My opinion is that Dallas was always the first choice for positioning the Official Patsy.®  Alice, TX isn’t all that close to San Antonio or Houston, and seeking a job at a radio station isn’t much of a proving ground for a future assassin.  Your reasoning for the SE Texas sightings is the most cogent argument I’ve ever heard for them, but I’m still not convinced.

[David Andrews]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:08 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

3. If, as I suspect, our "Oswald" did indeed stay at the YMCA in downtown Dallas for a week or so before Thursday, October 3, then I am certain the FBI would have destroyed any evidence of that. After all, they were trying to make the case that "Oswald" had made this bizarre trip to Mexico City right at that very moment, and NOT holed up at the YMCA in Dallas! But I agree, we don't have any evidence one way or another where he stayed in the nights before October 3. 

 

Just a stray thought:

Mentioned in another thread recently was the fact that a pair of flip-flops was included among Oswald's possessions recovered from the Paine house.

Back in the day, flip-flops were also known as "shower shoes."  People who wouldn't wear them on the street sometimes wore them when showering in communal facilities, such as at a YMCA, to avoid catching Athlete's Foot and other diseases.

Obviously this can't be made to point at any specific place or time, and Oswald may have owned these because of the vagaries of his housing situation.  But I don't see Oswald as a streetwear flip-flop type.

Edited January 17, 2020 by David Andrews

[Paul Jolliffe]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph above, as well as much what follows.  Perhaps this view is overly simplistic, but . . . . 
 
Both Oswalds (H&L) had roots in Dallas.  Beautiful Marina and the couple’s growing family were in Dallas. Ruth Paine was in the Dallas area and, although she may not yet have put the future alleged assassin into the TSBD when Nagel opened fire in that bank, she was already closely involved with the family of the patsy-to-be.   George DeMohrenschldt  and/or other white Russians were in position to keep a watchful eye on Boris and Natasha, I mean Harvey and Marina.  Jack Ruby was in town as well, and apparently had been working with American-born Lee Oswald while Russian-speaking Oswald was in New Orleans framing himself.

If “Oswald” was to be the fall guy, why would you want to find a similar cast of characters in another city?  How could you be sure that uprooting “Oswald,” or even his whole family, to yet another city would not produce unintended consequences?

My opinion is that Dallas was always the first choice for positioning the Official Patsy.®  Alice, TX isn’t all that close to San Antonio or Houston, and seeking a job at a radio station isn’t much of a proving ground for a future assassin.  Your reasoning for the SE Texas sightings is the most cogent argument I’ve ever heard for them, but I’m still not convinced.

Fair enough, but the south Texas incidents really happened, they covered a wide geographic area in a very limited time period (on days when our "Oswald" was lying very low - at least one night at a YMCA), and several different witnesses tied the LHO they encountered to either San Antonio or Houston specifically (and not just Alice, Texas!) 

I think, though, that we are in danger of overemphasizing "Oswald's" Dallas roots. I believe that if we looked only at "Oswald's" biography through the end of 1962, then we would conclude he was a primarily a creature of Fort Worth, not Dallas.

After all,  until he moved to 604 Elsbeth in November of 1962, "Oswald" was working in and living with Marina (and June) in Fort Worth. Before that, "Oswald" lived in the USSR. Before that, he was in the USMC but traveling home to Fort Worth. He went to Arlington Heights High School (Fort Worth) and Stripling Jr. High (Fort Worth.) As a little kid, he bounced around (supposedly) between New Orleans, Fort Worth and NYC. 

"Oswald's" connection to Dallas was not strong: nothing would have raised red flags in anyone's mind had the assassination happened somewhere else. "Oswald" was universally described as "rootless" after 11/22/63, NOT as a Dallas native. Hardly anyone in Dallas knew him, not even his co-workers!

As far as George DeMohrenschildt goes, his primary focus was on "Oswald" in Fort Worth. Within a month or so of the "Oswald" family arrival in Dallas at the end of November, 1962, GDM handed off the babysitting/handling/manipulating duties to Ruth Paine, and then in April of 1962, he exited "Oswald's" life, never to see him again.

Ruth Paine was an Irving resident, not of Dallas itself. Maybe I'm cutting a fine line here, but my impression is that Ruth was prepared to manipulate the "Oswald" family to whatever location was selected by the conspirators. I don't think there is any compelling evidence that Dallas had been chosen as the site before October 5, 1963. 

Yes, "Oswald" was being framed/groomed as a potential fall-guy long before then, but the final location was still up in the air. 

 

 

  

[David Josephs]

13 hours ago, David Andrews said:

3. If, as I suspect, our "Oswald" did indeed stay at the YMCA in downtown Dallas for a week or so before Thursday, October 3, then I am certain the FBI would have destroyed any evidence of that. After all, they were trying to make the case that "Oswald" had made this bizarre trip to Mexico City right at that very moment, and NOT holed up at the YMCA in Dallas! But I agree, we don't have any evidence one way or another where he stayed in the nights before October 3. 

There's more to Oct 3rd than the YMCA...

The reason he needs to have been in Dallas Friday night was his visit to the TEC which was claimed to be at 2:30pm that afternoon... so the FBI has him arrive in Dallas at 2:20pm...

This is what I meant about the trip itself...   the appointment appears to have been at 11:30am....  and the page below is exactly what I mean... when they figure out the bus they put him on doesn't work, they simply change tracts and put him on a different one....

 

 

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=760&tab=page

Last paragraph, last line... "arriving in Dallas at about 2:20pm on the same day" (Oct 3rd) since that's the only time the correct buses leaving earlier locations could get him there...

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/mexico-city-part-4-leaving-mexico-part-1

MEXICO CITY TO LAREDO OCT 1, 2 OR 3- DEL NORTE

While we can talk about our traveling Oswald asking PEDRO RODRIGUEZ LEDESMA to call for a taxi between 6:30 and 7am for his leaving early in the morning of the 2nd (while evidence suggests he left the 1st and did not stay at the hotel that night), the taxi evidence winds up recapped in FBI reports which only have the most dubious of corroboration. This man signaled with his hands and said "taxi" which PEDRO interpreted as his not being able to speak Spanish. We are to believe that Pedro does not know the name of the taxi driver nor his passenger's destination and simply left this gringo in a cab without any word of help. We are to remember from his arrival that the bus terminals are within a short walk of the hotel and that no one sees this man with more than a small brown zippered bag. The report of this activity is contained within CE2121 p56 and CE2532 p13-14:
-------

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=692&tab=page is the WCR copy of the FM-11 page in question. Please notice that Mr. LEE is alphabetized as Mr. Oswald even though all of the travel plans for the exit from Mexico are made out to H.O. LEE. 

Mr. OCHOA was directly responsible for this document.... and as I wrote in my articles, he unilaterally decided to add notes and make changes to this FM-11 to help "clarify the evidence"

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records Files/105-82555/105-82555 Section 089/89d.pdf page 9 shows the entry and exit cards...
"HARVEY OSWALD LEE (H.O. LEE)" leaves Oct 3rd...  Lee Harvey Oswald arrives Sept 26th 

 

We must remember that for months FBI reporting claimed he left in the afternoon of the 2nd since they had photos of the unidentified American on Oct 2nd not the first... when this was learned his departure was changed to the morning of Oct 2nd.... and the entire BS Taxi cab ride from the hotel, just a short walk from the terminals, as told by hotel employees via the FBI.

 

Finally, there is the Month long attempt by the FBI to find any info on Oswald being in Mexico....  including his assets at Gobernacion on the 8th of Nov

As many of you have said, the FBI had their own sources down there...  and not one of over 20 of them could find neither hide nor hair of our man Ozzie... 
all they knew was what the CIA told them...  As the report snipet from 11-22 shows, as of 11-22 the FBI assets in Mexico could not confirm ANYTHING about Oswald in Mexico....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

To bring HARVEY CASH full circle...  the evidence of withholding info as needed is rampant...  and most probably due to the fact so much of this evidence needed "alteration and omissions" before it was presentable.... like John Ely's biography of Lee Oswald. 

How much more blatant can the evidence be here... ??  What would be so important in his BIO that would require MATERIAL ALTERATION  -  one wonders