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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove

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12 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Just a stray thought:

Mentioned in another thread recently was the fact that a pair of flip-flops was included among Oswald's possessions recovered from the Paine house.

Back in the day, flip-flops were also known as "shower shoes."  People who wouldn't wear them on the street sometimes wore them when showering in communal facilities, such as at a YMCA, to avoid catching Athlete's Foot and other diseases.

Obviously this can't be made to point at any specific place or time, and Oswald may have owned these because of the vagaries of his housing situation.  But I don't see Oswald as a streetwear flip-flop type.

David,

I agree. I, too, wondered about those some time ago. You are absolutely right that people wear these around public pools, showers, locker rooms, etc. Now, conceivably, he could have had them since his USMC days, but those things wear out pretty quickly, right? 

One other thing: after reading Lillian Murret's testimony, I was struck by her description of her nephew's appearance. She testified that "he was very poorly dressed." Also that "Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear . . . all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him."

This is very reminiscent of the south Texas "Oswald" description from Oct. 3-5. 

Same guy? (The real LHO?)

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh8/html/WC_Vol8_0072a.htm

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

To bring HARVEY CASH full circle...  the evidence of withholding info as needed is rampant...  and most probably due to the fact so much of this evidence needed "alteration and omissions" before it was presentable.... like John Ely's biography of Lee Oswald. 

How much more blatant can the evidence be here... ??  What would be so important in his BIO that would require MATERIAL ALTERATION  -  one wonders :secret

701064406_JennertoRankinaboutJohnElyandhisOswaldtimelineproblems-web.jpg.9a5b098c13e31e547706f76b8dcc8c9e.jpg

 

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David,

Am I correct in summarizing your thesis that there is no evidence at all that either our "Oswald" or anyone calling himself "Oswald" traveled to or from Mexico in any manner even remotely close to that described in the Warren Report? (That was my takeaway from reading your series on Mexico City some years ago.)

I have long suspected that the person who appeared at the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27 was neither our "Oswald" nor the real LHO. Further, it has been argued (by others) that visit - approved by some level of U.S. Intelligence -  was in furtherance of some unknown operation that may/probably had nothing to do with the impending assassination. Instead (goes this argument), that visit was then seized upon by the conspirators (also in U.S. Intelligence) as a way to implicate "Oswald" as a tool of the KGB by manipulating the transcripts of the ensuing wiretapped phone calls to the Soviet Consulate. 

While I personally am not sold on this theory, it might explain why the extant transcripts of the phone calls are not that ominous - if these calls were made by an impostor looking to frame "Oswald" as a future presidential assassin, he could have made them much more sinister.

But still, as I said, the Mexico City "Oswald" phone calls/appearances are pretty mysterious.

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7 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Am I correct in summarizing your thesis that there is no evidence at all that either our "Oswald" or anyone calling himself "Oswald" traveled to or from Mexico in any manner even remotely close to that described in the Warren Report? (That was my takeaway from reading your series on Mexico City some years ago.)

Hey there Paul...

There IS evidence... it's simply that none of it is Authentic.  So I began to really wonder whether a real live person went to this embassy posing as Oswald, or was it possible that this was a cobbled together story using elements of truthful encounters with people in these places, just not Oswald and just not what they claim occurred.

Gaudet for example, tells a story about his time getting his tourist visa number 1 before Oswald's....  the rest of the people in the room that day do not corroborate his story...
Guadet is directly in the mix of intelligence going on in New Orleans and knows Bannister as well as knows Oswald had been working with/speaking with Bannister as well...  A valued CIA agent who would simply need this office to give him the application with the next # already written on it...

Then, when it is photographed as an exhibit it is split over 2 pages.... page 1 without the mention of this being a 6 month 180 day application (it is claimed the same application is used for both 15 and 180 day tourist visas yet there is no evidence to support this) the date stamp, or his actual signature,

Counting 15 days back from Oct 2, 1963... takes us to Sept 17, 1963, the day we are told he gets his 15 day visa....  those involved in creating this evidence were not aware that the clock starts WHEN YOU ARRIVE IN MEXICO... not the day one gets their visa...  this kind of oversight occurs repeatedly throughout the evidence.  We find the same 15 days referenced in the bogus typewritten letter from the Paine's house...  that they added 15 days to Sept 17 to arrive at Oct 2 as his MUST LEAVE DATE, and then pepper it around to reinforce it, is again, imho, pure Phillips/Hunt modus operandi ...


and page 2 without the Number, Series or name.  While this does appear to be Harvey's block letter writing style, the number of things wrong with this document... btw - he was never considered a "Catholic" ... Lutheran, Presbyterian, yes.... 

1934075281_WouldtheVisaapplicationrelatedtpoGAUDETbeoneoftheseauthenticationdocs.thumb.jpg.c7988a89bc595f93e522af31a8b5a806.jpg

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hey there Paul...

There IS evidence... it's simply that none of it is Authentic.  So I began to really wonder whether a real live person went to this embassy posing as Oswald, or was it possible that this was a cobbled together story using elements of truthful encounters with people in these places, just not Oswald and just not what they claim occurred.

Gaudet for example, tells a story about his time getting his tourist visa number 1 before Oswald's....  the rest of the people in the room that day do not corroborate his story...
Guadet is directly in the mix of intelligence going on in New Orleans and knows Bannister as well as knows Oswald had been working with/speaking with Bannister as well...  A valued CIA agent who would simply need this office to give him the application with the next # already written on it...

Then, when it is photographed as an exhibit it is split over 2 pages.... page 1 without the mention of this being a 6 month 180 day application (it is claimed the same application is used for both 15 and 180 day tourist visas yet there is no evidence to support this) the date stamp, or his actual signature,

Counting 15 days back from Oct 2, 1963... takes us to Sept 17, 1963, the day we are told he gets his 15 day visa....  those involved in creating this evidence were not aware that the clock starts WHEN YOU ARRIVE IN MEXICO... not the day one gets their visa...  this kind of oversight occurs repeatedly throughout the evidence.  We find the same 15 days referenced in the bogus typewritten letter from the Paine's house...  that they added 15 days to Sept 17 to arrive at Oct 2 as his MUST LEAVE DATE, and then pepper it around to reinforce it, is again, imho, pure Phillips/Hunt modus operandi ...


and page 2 without the Number, Series or name.  While this does appear to be Harvey's block letter writing style, the number of things wrong with this document... btw - he was never considered a "Catholic" ... Lutheran, Presbyterian, yes.... 

1934075281_WouldtheVisaapplicationrelatedtpoGAUDETbeoneoftheseauthenticationdocs.thumb.jpg.c7988a89bc595f93e522af31a8b5a806.jpg

David wrote: " So I began to really wonder whether a real live person went to this embassy posing as Oswald, or was it possible that this was a cobbled together story using elements of truthful encounters with people in these places, just not Oswald and just not what they claim occurred."

I have wondered the same, but for now, I tend to believe that a real person, intentionally posing as "Oswald", confronted both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue in the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27. 

If that unknown man had not used the name "Oswald", then the Cuban officials almost certainly would not have made the connection later to our "Oswald"!

 We know that our "Oswald" wasn't there, and we have no reason to believe that the physical resemblance between the Mexico City Cuban Consulate impostor and our "Oswald" was so strong that it would have left an indelible impression on Duran and Azcue. Indeed, the physical likeness did not! They both later said the man they so memorably encountered was NOT our "Oswald"! 

No photo in Mexico City of anyone who might plausibly have been mistaken for our "Oswald" has ever surfaced. Instead, the impersonation counted on the name "Lee Harvey Oswald". That's what Duran and Azcue remembered. 

And therefore, the use of the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" means a deliberate, specific impersonation for some calculated purpose. Yet, as I asked earlier, are we certain that impersonation at that moment was solely to frame our "Oswald" as a future presidential assassin? If so, why in the world were the transcripts of the intercepted phone calls so . . . innocuous, so blah, so bland?

What kind of murderous frame-up makes the patsy sound like a bad parody of Abbott and Costello?

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48 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I have wondered the same, but for now, I tend to believe that a real person, intentionally posing as "Oswald", confronted both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue in the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27. 

In the new release of docs I found a discussion with AMMUG-1, a defector who described the Standard Procedures at an Embassy staffed with intel assets when someone not knowing the "password" tried to make their way to Cuba shows up....  Especially an American wanting to go ....

Duran reiterates the bogus 15 day visa expiration timeline which is strange wince she should know better... with his paperwork supposedly showing a Sept 26th entry to Mexico, she should know the 15 days started then, not the day he gets his tourist visa...

Below that are the words of Duran and Azcue - both describing a person who was definitely not our Oswald....  so if this is the case, how did Oswald's photos get onto the applications Duran took...??

903465544_ammug-1tellsofvisaprocedureandsniffingoutofagents-conflictswithDURANandAZCUEaccountfowhattheydid.thumb.jpg.ed4ff93f88522991d833ce63f005fe61.jpg

 

1784059409_78-09-19AzcuestoryinOhioPaper-andDurandescription-web.thumb.jpg.263ecaf5ed3f1a1d94b399f6132d9afe.jpg

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

In the new release of docs I found a discussion with AMMUG-1, a defector who described the Standard Procedures at an Embassy staffed with intel assets when someone not knowing the "password" tried to make their way to Cuba shows up....  Especially an American wanting to go ....

Duran reiterates the bogus 15 day visa expiration timeline which is strange wince she should know better... with his paperwork supposedly showing a Sept 26th entry to Mexico, she should know the 15 days started then, not the day he gets his tourist visa...

Below that are the words of Duran and Azcue - both describing a person who was definitely not our Oswald....  so if this is the case, how did Oswald's photos get onto the applications Duran took...??

903465544_ammug-1tellsofvisaprocedureandsniffingoutofagents-conflictswithDURANandAZCUEaccountfowhattheydid.thumb.jpg.ed4ff93f88522991d833ce63f005fe61.jpg

 

1784059409_78-09-19AzcuestoryinOhioPaper-andDurandescription-web.thumb.jpg.263ecaf5ed3f1a1d94b399f6132d9afe.jpg

David asked: " Below that are the words of Duran and Azcue - both describing a person who was definitely not our Oswald....  so if this is the case, how did Oswald's photos get onto the applications Duran took...??

David, we don't know for sure, but the best guess is that the "Oswald" impostor had them with him, ready to go when he arrived for the first time on Friday, September 27 at the Cuban Consulate.

As I recall, Sylvia Duran (Tirado) first gave him the forms to fill out with the requirement for a photograph. The "Oswald" impostor then left and returned some time later with the photo. (Yet the FBI was unable to locate a photo shop anywhere even remotely close to the Cuban offices at which the photo could have been taken - "Oswald's" departure and return to the consulate was a charade.)

So why didn't the "Oswald" impostor readily produce the photo the first time?

Well, I can't say for sure, but I bet it was too risky to pull a photo out of his pocket that wasn't him. She would have to staple it to the application forms right there, and she would probably look at the photo somewhat. The risk of scrutiny was reduced if our impostor took the form with him and then returned with the photo already stapled and ready to go.  (Maybe a little crumpled or smudged, too.)

Another possibility is that once U.S. Intelligence got their hands on copies of the "Oswald" visa application, they switched the original photo of the impostor with a photo of our "Oswald".

Either way, our fall guy wasn't down in Mexico City, making an ass of himself at the Cuban and Soviet Consulates. Remember, the CIA told the Mexican DRF to torture Sylvia Duran (Tirado)  . . . twice! . . . to make sure she would "identify" the man with whom she interacted was "Oswald."

Azcue denied "Oswald" was that man right from the start, and Duran later told Anthony Summers that our Dallas "Oswald" was NOT the guy she saw/talked to/argued with at the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, 1963. 

Just my guess, but then, not even the Warren Commission could say where the photo came from. They didn't even try. 

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13 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

So why didn't the "Oswald" impostor readily produce the photo the first time?

Well, I can't say for sure, but I bet it was too risky to pull a photo out of his pocket that wasn't him. She would have to staple it to the application forms right there, and she would probably look at the photo somewhat. The risk of scrutiny was reduced if our impostor took the form with him and then returned with the photo already stapled and ready to go.  (Maybe a little crumpled or smudged, too.)

Another possibility is that once U.S. Intelligence got their hands on copies of the "Oswald" visa application, they switched the original photo of the impostor with a photo of our "Oswald".

The amount of disinformation and questionable information surrounding “Lee Harvey Oswald” in this case is simply stunning.  Now there is a thread on the Ed Forum even suggesting “Oswald” never roomed at 1026 N. Beckley.  Sheesh….

Here’s yet another example.  A few days ago Gary Shaw sent John A. a 10-page FBI report on a 1977 interview with a Ruby employee named Odell “James” Estes.  Estes told the FBI he worked at the Carousel Club from the last week in June until Sept. 2, 1963. 

Estes said he saw “Lee Oswald” at the Carousel Club many times during his employment there, including in Jack Ruby’s office.  He said he once drove Oswald to Love Field and even took two overnight fishing trips with Oswald to a lakeside cabin near Mineral Wells.  He described lengthy talks with this Oswald.  Since he (Estes) stopped working at the club on Sept. 2, he was quite certain that the two fishing trips, just a week apart, were both in August 1963.

Of course, in August 1963, Classic Oswald® was still in New Orleans.  Despite this depiction of “Oswald” being in New Orleans and Dallas simultaneously, an FBI cover memo  states that Estes was “willing to submit to a polygraph examination” and “talked very coherently and did not evidence the mannerisms frequently associated with a mentally disturbed individual.”  It should be noted that although the 1977 FBI report indicated Estes was “80 percent blind,” in 1963 he could see well enough to drive a car.

John and I will be adding this material to the Jack Ruby page on HarveyandLee.net, but until the update is completed, the 10-page report on Odell Estes’ FBI interview can be read on the Mary Ferrell site at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10020&search=%22Odell_Estes%22#relPageId=47&tab=page

 

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The amount of disinformation and questionable information surrounding “Lee Harvey Oswald” in this case is simply stunning.  Now there is a thread on the Ed Forum even suggesting “Oswald” never roomed at 1026 N. Beckley.  Sheesh….

Here’s yet another example.  A few days ago Gary Shaw sent John A. a 10-page FBI report on a 1977 interview with a Ruby employee named Odell “James” Estes.  Estes told the FBI he worked at the Carousel Club from the last week in June until Sept. 2, 1963. 

Estes said he saw “Lee Oswald” at the Carousel Club many times during his employment there, including in Jack Ruby’s office.  He said he once drove Oswald to Love Field and even took two overnight fishing trips with Oswald to a lakeside cabin near Mineral Wells.  He described lengthy talks with this Oswald.  Since he (Estes) stopped working at the club on Sept. 2, he was quite certain that the two fishing trips, just a week apart, were both in August 1963.

Of course, in August 1963, Classic Oswald® was still in New Orleans.  Despite this depiction of “Oswald” being in New Orleans and Dallas simultaneously, an FBI cover memo  states that Estes was “willing to submit to a polygraph examination” and “talked very coherently and did not evidence the mannerisms frequently associated with a mentally disturbed individual.”  It should be noted that although the 1977 FBI report indicated Estes was “80 percent blind,” in 1963 he could see well enough to drive a car.

John and I will be adding this material to the Jack Ruby page on HarveyandLee.net, but until the update is completed, the 10-page report on Odell Estes’ FBI interview can be read on the Mary Ferrell site at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10020&search=%22Odell_Estes%22#relPageId=47&tab=page

 

Jim,

I am a little confused here: my post above was in response to David Joseph's good question asking how in the world did our "Oswald's" picture wind up on the visa application forms on Sylvia Duran's desk in the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City?

While none of us know for certain (and since we all agree that our "Oswald" was not in Mexico City), I offered what I thought were two reasonable possibilities:

1. The impostor already had the "Oswald" photos with him, ready to go, and then attached them himself. In this scenario, neither Duran nor Azcue noticed the discrepancy.

2. The impostor really did submit photos of himself, but those photos were later switched (somehow) by U.S . intelligence assets/operatives before they entered the JFK investigation evidence stream. (Simply tear off the impostor's photo, and staple "Oswald's" photo in its place. Can't be that difficult, right?)

I am open to other ideas, and I assumed the purpose of this forum was to explore any and all evidence.

Thanks for posting the 1977 report with Estes. 

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1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

I am a little confused here: my post above was in response to David Joseph's good question asking how in the world did our "Oswald's" picture wind up on the visa application forms on Sylvia Duran's desk in the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City?

While none of us know for certain (and since we all agree that our "Oswald" was not in Mexico City), I offered what I thought were two reasonable possibilities:

1. The impostor already had the "Oswald" photos with him, ready to go, and then attached them himself. In this scenario, neither Duran nor Azcue noticed the discrepancy.

2. The impostor really did submit photos of himself, but those photos were later switched (somehow) by U.S . intelligence assets/operatives before they entered the JFK investigation evidence stream. (Simply tear off the impostor's photo, and staple "Oswald's" photo in its place. Can't be that difficult, right?)

I am open to other ideas, and I assumed the purpose of this forum was to explore any and all evidence.

Thanks for posting the 1977 report with Estes. 

Sorry, Paul....  I don’t have much to add to the question of the photo on the visa application, but I just learned about the Estes interview yesterday and I wanted to work it in to this thread.  Perhaps the segue was confusing, but all sorts of issues about two Oswalds and false Oswalds are being discussed under this topic.

As I’m sure you know, there is quite a lot of evidence suggesting one Oswald was seen in and around Ruby’s club at the same time Classic Oswald® was in New Orelans, but much of the evidence, at least that Hoover allowed to survive, seems to be hearsay or at least hearsay-related.  This was a direct account by a fellow willing to take a polygraph indicating that he worked with LEE Oswald at the Carousel Club day after day in the summer of 1963, and I think it has been largely overlooked--at least by John A. and me—and I’ll bet a whole lot of other even knowledgeable people.

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On 1/18/2020 at 6:45 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

1. The impostor already had the "Oswald" photos with him, ready to go, and then attached them himself. In this scenario, neither Duran nor Azcue noticed the discrepancy.

2. The impostor really did submit photos of himself, but those photos were later switched (somehow) by U.S . intelligence assets/operatives before they entered the JFK investigation evidence stream. (Simply tear off the impostor's photo, and staple "Oswald's" photo in its place. Can't be that difficult, right?)

I am open to other ideas, and I assumed the purpose of this forum was to explore any and all evidence.

Paul... nothing is "attaching" the photo to the carbon copy...  she said she stapled both...  she didn't.

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#1 option - As I'll be writing an updating article about Mexico... all I can say here is how did he get out of New Orleans?

According to the WCR - MARINA tells them he took a bus.... and since Marina's word is GOLD....:lol: ... we are to take her word for it at face value despite there not being a single item of evidence which connects Oswald to a bus leaving New Orleans...  The WCR says Continental since the Mexico equivalent is Flecha Rojas - one of the bus lines they claim he was on when traveling from Monterrey to Mexico City.... the Aussie girls took Del Norte....

#2 option - (assuming you can indeed actually get Oswald into Mexico)... the impostor returns from ???? with photos (or brought them) and they are replaced at some point in the future

Nothing begins to happen related to LEE HARVEY OSWALD at the Cuban/Soviet Embassy/Consulate until October 7th.... Phillips arrives.  the supposed calls were Sept 27, 28 and Oct 1...

The Sept 27th tapes are dropped of SAT Sept 28th and picked up Monday, Sept 30th with Sept 28th tapes dropped off at the same time... Then picked up Oct 1st...
Anne Goodpasture would have the transcriptions in her hands by the 1st or 2nd of Oct.  She claims it was sent to Tarasoff because the caller tried speaking Russian....  in Tarasoff's April 1978 HSCA interview he says that all the SPANISH calls were taken from him due to the volume - that he was to stay focused on Russian...  yet by all accounts, the call on Spet 27th was in Spanish and all three calls on the 27th were BEFORE 2pm... AZCUE says the building closed at 2pm...

As of the 27 of Nov, the CIA claims that there is no info on Oswald - yet Harvey CASH had already sent on the 23rd detailed info from Cards typed in Mexico about our man Ozzie....

More importantly, here is a piece of the call from the 27th... in SPANISH and mentioning Odessa... something the offered CIA transcripts don't do...

424532706_Spanishreporton9-27visitsayspersonaskingaboutavisatogettoODESAnoCrimeaasWinScottwroteinhismanuscript-web.thumb.jpg.d042219e5b17965b11f7cbd010ea7b96.jpg

 

NEEDED A VISA TO ODESSA....   the CIA claims the calls on the 27th occur after 4pm....  again, when no one is there...  

While I like the thoughts Paul, until you put someone at the Cuban/Soviet buildings... we need to get them there first....

DJ

 

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So Paul, BEFORE you have an impostor at the embassy on Sept 27th...  he has to get there.  if he travels with others - the FBI is shown to be FOS....  if he travels in a car, FBi again FOS...

Not to say that he didn't travel to Mexico with others....  there is simply no authentic evidence - in fact, we have the amazing investigation of the BRILL's as the only couple who came thru when MAYDON was the inspector... except their names were M/M ALLEN...

 

302767488_63-09-27Oswald201Vol3folder8p147-BRILLsarethesameastheAllens-thenamesgomixedup-croppedandhighlighted-web.jpg.f18ea3e9318c1fabdd048a7cc8330794.jpg

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, David Josephs said:

#1 option - As I'll be writing an updating article about Mexico... all I can say here is how did he get out of New Orleans?

According to the WCR - MARINA tells them he took a bus.... and since Marina's word is GOLD....:lol: ... we are to take her word for it at face value despite there not being a single item of evidence which connects Oswald to a bus leaving New Orleans...  The WCR says Continental since the Mexico equivalent is Flecha Rojas - one of the bus lines they claim he was on when traveling from Monterrey to Mexico City.... the Aussie girls took Del Norte....

David,

I don’t have your expertise on MC, but isn’t there another possibility here?  As you know, there is a lot of evidence that in the summer of 1963, while Classic Oswald® was in New Orleans setting himself up as a Castro-living commie, another LHO was in Dallas working with Jack Ruby.

A couple of posts above I put a link to the FBI report saying how a fellow named Odell “James” Estes told the FBI that he worked at the Carousel Club from the last week in June until Sept. 2, 1963.   The report indicated that Odell saw LHO many times in the club, including in Ruby’s office, and even took two overnight fishing trips on consecutive weeks with LHO to a lakeside cabin in Mineral Wells.

As you know, JA assembled a lot more evidence suggesting one LHO was in Dallas while Classic Oswald was in New Orleans.  Now, I don’t believe ANY Oswald actually went to the MC consulates and created the scenes Phillips wanted us to believe in.  But it does seem to me quite possible that the LHO who was hanging with Ruby in Dallas was sent at least to the vicinity of Mexico City, all part of the plot to blame the assassination on Castro and Castro-loving “LHO.”  My guess is that this Oswald was just told to keep a low profile in a motel or safe house somewhere in or near MC.

This would mean, of course, that the FBI/WC would have to fake all or most of the travel evidence, which you have shown they clearly did.

Does that strike you as possible?

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51 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

But it does seem to me quite possible that the LHO who was hanging with Ruby in Dallas was sent at least to the vicinity of Mexico City, all part of the plot to blame the assassination on Castro and Castro-loving “LHO.”

Hi Jim...  Yes, I did consider that...  my feeling is if Ruby's LHO is supposed to leave a trail of breadcrumbs to Mexico and back, he does an amazingly terrible job.

A single 4 part ticket to and from Mexico City does the trick... he doesn't even really have to go.... but at least have the tickets...

Yet that is not what we see...  at every junction along the way the evidence gets worse and worse in support of anyone making the trip...

Additionally, wouldn't there be real evidence of a person taking this trip, being in Mexico...
Wouldn't the summary reports related to all the wire tapping have picked up something before Nov?

A real person leaves a real trail...  Nothing suggests that any of what we have is Authentic Evidence of a real person doing anything....

And this report is a classic... What the FBI concludes he did - is not possible, so instead of realizing there was something terribly wrong with the Mexico info, LEGAT (FBI) is sent back to the drawing board to find another way he could have made it....

You'd have to read my work on the trip back to Dallas to see how absurd it truly was....  FBI Mexico and assets were on it from 11/22 on....

5a207c43aefe2_63-11-26CIAMexicosummaryhasOswaldarrivingonAnahuacbuslineandleavingsameOct1.jpg.2a594a01113466cd48c128aa2bb65207.jpg5a207cdd7a70b_63-11-26FBImexifile105-3702NARA124-10230-10442Anotehrbusline-ANAHUACaskedforallNorthbo-dbusrecordstobesenttoPIEDRASNEGRASbordercrossing11-26.thumb.jpg.22f6273bf1942bf4838cf1d757e508cc.jpg

746383246_FBIreportthatFronteradoesnotworkforTECappointment-web.jpg.d2125f8e588ae4d6f2622422811d3ccf.jpg

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Jim...  Yes, I did consider that...  my feeling is if Ruby's LHO is supposed to leave a trail of breadcrumbs to Mexico and back, he does an amazingly terrible job.

A single 4 part ticket to and from Mexico City does the trick... he doesn't even really have to go.... but at least have the tickets...

Yet that is not what we see...  at every junction along the way the evidence gets worse and worse in support of anyone making the trip...

Additionally, wouldn't there be real evidence of a person taking this trip, being in Mexico...
Wouldn't the summary reports related to all the wire tapping have picked up something before Nov?

A real person leaves a real trail...  Nothing suggests that any of what we have is Authentic Evidence of a real person doing anything....

And this report is a classic... What the FBI concludes he did - is not possible, so instead of realizing there was something terribly wrong with the Mexico info, LEGAT (FBI) is sent back to the drawing board to find another way he could have made it....

You'd have to read my work on the trip back to Dallas to see how absurd it truly was....  FBI Mexico and assets were on it from 11/22 on....

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David,

We agree that our "Oswald" in New Orleans in September, 1963 never made the trip to Mexico City late that month. I think it is likely our "Oswald" instead went directly to Dallas somehow. In Dallas outside Sylvia Odio's door on Thursday,, September 26, our "Oswald" was in the company of two Cubans, one of whom, "Leopoldo" later made a phone call to Odio in which "Leopoldo" clearly implied (albeit falsely) our "Oswald" was a future assassin and JFK hater.

So of course there is no legitimate record of our "Oswald's" trip to Mexico City - he never went there, either by bus or car or plane! 

You have done a great job of showing the problems in the evidence that our "Oswald" made the trip via bus. 

But you seem to be implying that no one was impersonating our "Oswald" in the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, nor the USSR Consulate on Saturday, September 28. Forgive me if I have misread your guess here, but is that what you are thinking?

Hmm.

If no "Oswald" at all was in either the Cuban or Soviet consulates on either day, then what in the world were Duran and Azcue talking about later? To whom were they referring? Surely their stories were not made up completely out of thin air, were they? Isn't it more likely that they did indeed interact with and argue with someone who wanted to create the impression he was our "Oswald"? 

Isn't that person, by definition, an "Oswald" impostor, no matter the resemblance (or lack of it)? And since that person was there, physically present inside those consulates, is it then productive to speculate about how they got there?

David, I am open to the idea the entire "Oswald" visits were a fiction, created by David Atlee Phillips after the fact. But surely, they must have been based on real incidents with a real person, one who somehow (at least for a bit), persuaded both Duran and Azcue that they had interacted with Lee Harvey Oswald? Otherwise, how would the plotters know in advance that Duran and Azcue would remember it that way later?

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1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

If no "Oswald" at all was in either the Cuban or Soviet consulates on either day, then what in the world were Duran and Azcue talking about later? To whom were they referring? Surely their stories were not made up completely out of thin air, were they? Isn't it more likely that they did indeed interact with and argue with someone who wanted to create the impression he was our "Oswald"?

I see no reason for LITAMIL/9 to be untruthful here....  He was one of Azcue's best friends... yet not a word supporting anyone behaving like Oswald per Azcue/Duran... in fact as I showed with AMMUG/1... these two did not follow a single step in relation to a potential american spy being in their midst....

I actually am starting to think how much easier their stories about Oswald would be if he was never there...  take the Alvarado story... Complete fabrication at the hands of Phillips which includes placing Oswald at the Cuban Consulate taking money....  never happened... and all the actors in his story didn't exist.

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Yes - DURAN/AZCUE describe a person... a short, very thin person who did not resemble the man Ruby killed... yet DURAN also denies making the calls from late afternoon on the 27th.
Denies that this person returns on either the 28th or the 1st....  And since the call from the 27th was all in Spanish and had little to do with the transcripts from that afternoon - we can conclude this was neither Oswald or someone trying to be Oswald....

So while there MAY have been someone there on the 27th - it had nothing to do with Oswald... read it again carefully... 
btw - DURAN claims "Oswald" didn't arrive until just after 11am...

I obviously do not know all that transpired... from what I can tell from the evidence though... it's just as likely no one was there as was an Oswald impersonator... 
My $.02
DJ

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Then we would assume the calls are to and from the Cuban Embassy... 

Notice all the calls/transcripts come from Soviet Taps, not Cuban....  Azcue repeatedly says the Consulate closes at 2pm and no one is there after 4pm... yet that's when these calls are time stamped....

In direct conflict with the Spanish transcription for the 27th regarding Odessa, we have painfully contrived "conversations"...

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7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Jim...  Yes, I did consider that...  my feeling is if Ruby's LHO is supposed to leave a trail of breadcrumbs to Mexico and back, he does an amazingly terrible job.

Yes, indeed!  Unless he did a perfectly adequate job marking a trail to Mexico City, but then it was discovered that the evidence created a Really Serious Problem.  In that case, as usual, the evidence would have to disappear and be replaced by improved evidence.

*IF* Ruby’s Oswald traveled to Mexico City to lay low there while, say, an impostor went to the consulates using his name, I can only speculate what the problem with the bread crumbs from Dallas to MC might have been.  One guess, though, is that the real evidence of a Dallas to MC trip might have conflicted with other real evidence of a second Oswald leaving New Orleans.  How would the FBI explain, for example, two bus tickets for two Lee Harvey Oswalds departing from New Orleans and Dallas at roughly the same time?  In the evidentiary panic, EVERYTHING might get swept under the rug!  

It’s kind of reminiscent of the two Oswalds timeline problems on the early afternoon of 11/22/63.  These guys were good, but they seemed to have occasional problems managing the timeline for their two principals. After all, the framers were dealing with human beings, not chess pieces. 

*IF* the conspiracy to frame an Oswald in MC occurred before the alleged visits to the consulates, problems like I speculate above could be quite possible, at least in my opinion.   Obviously, there is a lot of speculation here.

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