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Jim Hargrove

EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

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David,

If I am following your argument correctly, you believe that because the extant transcripts of the alleged phone calls made from the Cuban Consulate to the Soviets on Friday afternoon, Sept. 27 have nothing to do with the substance of the conversations/confrontations between Duran, Azcue and an unknown male earlier that day, that therefore that same unknown man could not have been deliberately impersonating our "Oswald", correct?

I agree that the existing transcripts we have of the alleged phone calls from the Cubans to the Soviets on Friday afternoon are deeply suspect, for all the reasons you've listed. Those transcripts are probably completely phony, at least in terms of connecting our "Oswald" to the earlier visits to the Cuban Consulate. 

You and I also agree that our "Oswald" was never inside the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, and never interacted with either Duran or Azcue. We agree that some unknown man was there, who did indeed have some kind of interaction (maybe heated, maybe not) with Duran and Azcue. We agree (as does LITAMIL 9) that this unknown man did NOT resemble our "Oswald." (Apparently he was short, thin, blond and poorly dressed.)

You believe that the lack of supporting documentation from either Azcue or Duran about a suspected American spy in their midst is evidence that no such suspect appeared before them on that Friday. 

Fair enough.

However, I doubt if Azcue and Duran really considered this unknown man to be an American spy. My impression is that both of them described this man's actions and words as if they believed he was some sort of naive fool - after all, they made it clear to him he could NOT get an immediate transit visa to Cuba! Would they - at the time -  have considered it likely that U.S. intelligence agencies would have sent this idiot on a hopeless mission, one doomed to fail? I doubt it. And therefore, I think it is at least possible that they dismissed the entire episode - at the time - as nothing more than pathetic effort by a dumb, ignorant clown, not worthy of further comment.

Obviously, on November 22, 1963, their interactions with this man would come under heavy scrutiny. But back on September 27, I could see both of them dismissing this obnoxious, stupid young man without a second thought. 

So, the key question remains: did this young man, whoever he was, deliberate invoke our "Oswald's" identity during his meeting/conversations/confrontations with Azcue and Duran, or not?

If not, and if this man's business was completely unrelated to our "Oswald", then how in the world did this particular mundane episode become entangled in the "Oswald" legend? How would David Atlee Phillips have seized upon it a week later to serve as the basis for the "Oswald - in - Mexico City - meeting - with - Commies" myth? If this man's (legitimate?) visit to the Cuban Consulate was indeed completely unremarkable, then how in the world would DAP have even known of it, let alone how it could be twisted into the "Oswald in Mexico City" myth later?

Yet DAP is seemingly taking action by no later than October 7 about these visits. 

It seems likely to me that this unknown young man, whether he deliberately used "Oswald's" identity or not, really did visit the Cuban Consulate at least once on Friday, Sept. 27, and that he really did want a transit visa to Cuba and the Soviet Union.

That part of the story, as related by Azcue and Duran, rings true - they did not make that part up out of thin air.

So, could the visit of this unknown man to the Cuban Consulate have been seized upon by DAP a week later to create the myth that this young man was, in fact, our "Oswald"?

Well, theoretically, yes it is possible.

But it would be one helluva coincidence if some unknown young man, completely unrelated to anything "Oswaldian", really visited the Cubans to secure a visa through Cuba to the USSR just at the same time that the JFK assassination plot was really heating up, and plans to frame our "Oswald" were in place.

And I don't believe in coincidences.

 

 

Edited by Paul Jolliffe

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10 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

However, I doubt if Azcue and Duran really considered this unknown man to be an American spy.

From what I have read - and the statements from AMMUG/1 (who along with a handful of the DGI staff talk about Oswald but never quite say they actually saw or interacted with him....

It's always "he said that she said that he saw him and relayed that to another who told my friend who told me...."

Any American asking to go to Russia via Cuba (or not) is going to be looked upon with suspicion at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico... hotbed for intel activity all thru the 60's.

The job of AZCUE was to interview those applying for a visa to a "communist" country and discover the person's true intent... to make it harder for them to get into their countries.

Oswald - if he was to have actually been there - was most definitely there for some intel purpose... same as his time in Russia...
AZCUE would be remiss in his duties if he did not at least question the man... from what DURAN and AZCUE say - it feels matter-of-fact....

Just enough truth to believe the lie....  none of what is offered as activity on the 28th or Oct 1st is true... but we knew that.... Question becomes
If Alvarado, a CIA asset can tell an amazing story and then be coerced to recant... what do you supposed the Mexican Police and the CIA could do with/for DURAN?

The de la Paz party was a lie, Alvarado a lie, the 28th-1st a lie, no evidence of Oswald outside the "LI-XXX" audio tapes,

Were you aware that ODUM/HOSTY interviewed ODIO on Dec 18th? and then nothing until July 22, 1964 - her testimony....

1088230061_OdiotellsHSCAHostyandOdumsaidtheywouldcontacthersoon-notuntilsummer64-web.jpg.2b50d1cef084030c15059747b410d9db.jpg   

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

465258136_OswaldandMasen-EvicafeelsElsworthistalkingaboutMASENandnotOrcaberrio.jpg.7d54bf0aa72298f1c8e21d2fa9db1f3d.jpgJohn Masen on the left (also arrested 11/22) - just to show an unshaven Oswald

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

"...the entire material we have to date ON THIS PROBLEM"

and what the WCR tells us....  Nothing to hide here... move along... move along.... B)

944915465_odioreportfromSlawson-web.jpg.fe620830611865938a8e3c33b3ec8acd.jpg  1793389978_64-09-24OswaldonabustoMexico-couldntbeatOdiosinDallas-WCR.jpg.7a86e2e14444ba0a8adb103798d74bcc.jpg

 

 

----------

CORNWELL - Did the officers from the Securidad Department ever suggest to you during the questioning that they had information that you and Oswald had been lovers?
TIRADO - Yes, and also that we were communists and that we were planning the Revolution and uh, a lot of false things.

CORNWELL - Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment. Is there any chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day?
TIRADO - No. I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's digest, and they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions. He was in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's false.
CORNWELL - All right. Let's try a different hypothetical. If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a Friday?

TIRADO - No, because I am positively sure about it. That he came in the same day.

So what can we say here?  DURAN is adamant about the man from the application being at her desk on the 27th.  One of the bigger clues - the one which got me started on this journey is the HOTEL REGISTRY BOOK from OCHOA....

The tourist Visa from New Orleans is written out: "LEE, HARVEY OSWALD" which is were we get H. O. LEE traveling in Mexico...
Yet when we look at the 1st day of his stay at this hotel, the day the guest actually signs the book, we get the same exact thing, as if copied:

Problem being the MASTER LOG - FM-11 is supposed to alphabetize the FM's for the 1st and 2nd halves of the month... below is the one for the 2nd half of Sept...
Mr. H.O. LEE is somehow correctly alphabetized under "O" for Oswald.... despite us being told repeatedly he used H.O. LEE

1147213993_OswaldMexicanVisaandtheHotelregistry-HOLEE.jpg.10574319b1752f1db8ae3cd760a2f45f.jpg

1216486820_SeptemberFM-11-Oswaldalphabetizedunder-O-not-L-web.jpg.4d743f4b26a68585991bd9ab211dcbf3.jpg

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One piece of evidence suggesting the Mexico City charade was not just an opportunistic after-the-fact creation by David Phillips is the apparent indication that on Oct. 3rd and 4th, when one Oswald was at the Downtown YMCA and Texas Employment Commission in Dallas, another Oswald was nearly 400 miles to the south in Alice, Texas.  This Oswald apparently told radio station KOPY personnel that “he had just come from Mexico.”

KOPY_FBI.jpg

If true, this suggests the Mexico City frame-up pre-dated the efforts by Phillips to exploit it.

One other possibility is that Hoover just made up the “just come from Mexico” remark to tighten the evidentiary noose around “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but, if memory serves (and it often doesn’t) , in an interview independent of the FBI, KOPY manager Stewart also repeated the Mexico claim.  Does anyone remember that? 

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