Jim Hargrove Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Folsom Exhibit has that info... haven’t seen anything diff at Baylor, yet. Thanks, DJ! John A. refers to the Folsom exhibit nearly a dozen times in H&L, and on p. 154 he wrote, in reference to LEE: “Oswald was not promoted to PFC until May 1957." [H&L p. 154] This agrees with the top line under “PROMOTIONS AND REDUCTIONS” of Folsom Ex 1, p. 5 above, which indicates he attained PFC rank on May 2 (or May 1). Since one Oswald signed the enlistment papers on Oct. 24, 1956, 6 months would have elapsed by the May 2 promotion, but not 8 months. I'd ask John B. how certain he is that 8 months, and not just 6, were required for the promotion to PFC. Edited February 23, 2020 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Jim, I'm not that sure about anything concerning Oswald records. Oct. 24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is 6 months and about a week. So, that couldn't have been Harvey in late 1956 or early 1957. Early, I would take as the first quarter (3 months). Upon graduating from basic training young Marines earn the rank of Private (E-1). Most enlisted Marines hold this rank for 6 months before they are promoted to Private First Class. (I interpreted this as 6-8 months) Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service. This promotion is virtually automatic for those who meet the basic promotion criteria. It doesn't mean that everyone gets promoted at 6 months service. It depends on the judgement of Company Commanders who rely on the judgement of their senior NCO's. Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service. Edited February 23, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 JB - notice the 1st line crossed out... 1MAY57 6 months prior to is 1NOV56 Our little Harvey enters end of October 1956.... why doesn't that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, David Josephs said: JB - notice the 1st line crossed out... 1MAY57 6 months prior to is 1NOV56 Our little Harvey enters end of October 1956.... why doesn't that work? David, That is strange. The promotion date (since they are sticklers in everything else) should be April 24, 1957 (could be April 25 according to how many days has Oct. To lazy to look up) I checked out the promotion code as follows: I think that may explain the date by using a "minimum of six months service". Because of reluctance on the part of the Company Commander, secretarial slowness, or some other reason the delay to May 2, 1957 is reasonable in the sense it meets or surpasses the minimum requirement. Still, the promotion date should be in April 24 or there abouts regardless of whether it took some time to make the promotion. This is important for the proper pay on promotion and pay records. By using May 2, it is possible that Harvey could be cheated out of about 8 or more days of pay. What I don't understand is why is this promotion line crossed out? Crossing that out says it is invalid. Is that because of the 29 April 1958 demotion to private In Japan. Could be. The next promotion to PFC is in March, 1959. This is Lee instead of Harvey. Harvey's orders to Japan/Taiwan are for a Pvt. Oswald if I am remembering correctly. I speculated he was reduced in rank for being AWOL in New Orleans for about a year or less. There is no record of this and there should be. He is a Pvt. in his shipment orders Oct. 6, 1958. Some one suggested the CIA/ONI could wave their magic wand and reduce Harvey to match Pvt. Lee Oswald in Japan. You have in your timeline Aug., 1959: Chief Warrant Officer Edward]. Spahr was a non-commissioned officer (NCO) who tried to help Oswald with his hardship discharge. On August 17, with affidavits, statements, and a Parent's Dependency Affidavit, PFC Lee Harvey Oswald submitted a request for a dependency discharge to the Commanding Officer, MACS-9, MWHQ, 3rd MAW, Santa Ana (MACS 9), CA. 59-16 NOTE: Curiously, ON the Dependency Affidavit WHERE MO LISTS HER CHILDREN IN THE SERVICE was in the name of Oswald, Harvey Lee This is PFC Harvey. He checks out of the Corps as Pvt. Could you check this source. This maybe another mix up of the two Marine Records. Lee is out in March, 1959. For this exit from the service to work, Harvey would have had to be reduced in rank after Aug., 1959. There is no record of this either. There is just the promotions and reductions record that Jim posted earlier. Oswald, Harvey Lee? Freudian slip? Edited February 24, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 39 minutes ago, John Butler said: Oswald, Harvey Lee? Freudian slip? Read Marge's WCR testimony and compare it to what you know of Oswald's life.... and relatives. If you want a real good laugh that is... what mom here doesn't know about her life or her "son's" life is amazing... and expected if one understands H&L DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 7:15 PM, Richard Price said: David, according to a search I did for "Cnf SSCM (SSSCM)", it stands for Confined, serving sentence, summary court martial". This is from a Col. Folsom who was appearing at "The Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy". The reference was in volume 8. Thanks Richard.... So June 1958 is the Oswald altercation with a superior officer.... he gets Conf SSCM June 27 - 30 and July 1 - 24... but that's extended to Aug 12th... 6 weeks in the brig and busted down from PFC to PVT.... yet the sentence was only 28 days.... It would be LEE OSWALD who is in the brig and stays in Japan while HARVEY comes to Atsugi and then departs for TAIWAN on Sept 14th... It would appear that both men are at Atsugi in Aug/Sept 1958 before HARVEY goes to PING TUNG and LEE goes back to El Toro... But first - a 1 MONTH LEAVE (Nov 19 - Dec 18, 1958) only a couple months after getting out of the brig.... (and with the same 2 lines crossed out above it) It appears to be right around this time that HARVEY takes over for LEE while LEE is sent back to El TORO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 3 hours ago, David Josephs said: It would be LEE OSWALD who is in the brig and stays in Japan while HARVEY comes to Atsugi and then departs for TAIWAN on Sept 14th... It would appear that both men are at Atsugi in Aug/Sept 1958 before HARVEY goes to PING TUNG and LEE goes back to El Toro... But William Trail, who accompanied HARVEY Oswald to Ping Tung, recalled that when the ship departed 9/14/58 “OSWALD and another Marine were being held prisoners at Atsugi and had to be picked up by a ‘chaser’ with a gun.” Assuming Trail was correct and the FBI didn’t understand the details well enough to falsify the report, HARVEY Oswald was in the Atsugi brig a month after LEE Oswald was released. John A. speculated that “Harvey Oswald, while waiting for the unit to depart for Taiwan, may have been held in the Marine brig to keep him separate and apart from the Marines who bunked and worked with Lee Oswald in Atsugi. His confinement would have allowed him to safely depart for Taiwan with a different group of Marines who did not know Lee Oswald.” [H&L p. 198] As we know, this leads directly into the period when Harvey was on the high seas and in Taiwan at the very same time LEE was being treated, ostensibly for VD, back in Atsugi, one of the major USMC “smoking guns” for the two Oswalds. Less well understood, though, is how long LEE and HARVEY were both at Atsugi before HARVEY set sail for Taiwan. John A. believes HARVEY was still at Pfisterer’s at least until the early summer of ‘58, and probably spent some more time in Fort Worth after he left New Orleans. Since some effort may have been exerted to keep the two Oswalds apart prior to HARVEY embarking on the U.S.S. Skagit, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if it turns out HARVEY was at Atsugi for only a single day before leaving with William Trail and the others for Taiwan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 5 hours ago, John Butler said: That is strange. The promotion date (since they are sticklers in everything else) should be April 24, 1957 (could be April 25 according to how many days has Oct. To lazy to look up) John... please comment on the CORPORAL TEST he took 15 JAN 58 and PASSED ?!?!? there is a line thru it yet IDK what that exactly signifies... 52 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: As we know, this leads directly into the period when Harvey was on the high seas and in Taiwan at the very same time LEE was being treated, ostensibly for VD, back in Atsugi, one of the major USMC “smoking guns” for the two Oswalds. I see what it says about TRAIL... so I went back to FOLSOM and found his "RECORD OF SERVICE" The page is a bit of a mess regarding 1958... duplicate entries etc... but this caught my eye... If he was in the Brig from June 27 thru Aug 12 1958.... Why does it list him coming back to work on July 1? While in the BRIG a cancellation of overseas tour is submitted... and also while in the brig it is approved... It seems to me while LEE is in the BRIG.. HARVEY is on his way back to Japan with LEE now scheduled to go stateside Nov 1958... which is the day LEE returns It appears HARVEY is only back in Japan to go to TAIWAN and then to Santa Ana... yet on THE SAME DAY LEE is set to leave Japan... Nov 1st 1958. The next dated ADMIN REMARK is AUG 19 1959 when the Dependency discharge comes up... Down the rabbit hole..... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) David, "John... please comment on the CORPORAL TEST he took 15 JAN 58 and PASSED ?!?!? there is a line thru it yet IDK what that exactly signifies..." I believe that in the Marines just as in the Army you have to go before a promotion board if one becomes a NCO, even if the lowest rank. Lance Corporal/E3 may be considered a NCO in the Marines. I don't know. I do know from personal experience with being in charge of a small group of regular Navy people tests and promotion boards were the way they were promoted. They had no qualifications on time. If you took the test (any time during service) and passed you were promoted. That crossed out test would be like the PFC rank. Crossed out and no longer applying. Just a guess. You and Jim have been talking about Harvey and Lee being at Atsugi at the same time. My take on the information is that Harvey was never at Atsugi. Here is what I put in my timeline. Check and see where I went wrong. September 14, 1958: Harvey and his assigned unit sail for the South China Sea. How Harvey arrived in Japan and came aboard his ship, the USS Skagit, is a bit murky to say the least. There is a 20 mile difference between Atsugi and Yokosuka, Japan. Lee’s at Atsugi and Harvey’s at Yokosuka. And, that is as close as they come to each other in Japan according to records. Who knows what events occurred and went unrecorded. Note: Sometime between July, 1958 and Sept., 1958 Harvey rejoins the Marines. When and Where? Did he just show up in Japan and board his ship after a year as a civilian? It could explain his subsequent behavior on guard duty in October, 1958. He did not have the experience to deal with guard duty in a foreign country. Sept., 1958: According to Harvey and Lee: “Harvey was beginning the process of assuming the identity of LEE Oswald, which began aboard the USS Skagit en route to Taiwan. Marine Corps Unit Diary 151-58 (744) shows that (HARVEY) Oswald departed with this unit en route to Taiwan on September 14.” Note: This Marine Corps Diary shows Harvey was at Ping Tung, Taiwan. He is listed as a PVT. He was a PFC and this suggests he was reduced in rank for his AWOL to New Orleans for close to a year. Note: How does Harvey re-enter the Marines and show up at the Yokosuka Naval Base to join the Skagit? Atsugi, where Lee is at and is 20 miles from Yokosuka where Harvey is at the same time. Did he come from California or Texas? Did he return to the Marines and was Courts Martialed for being AWOL for about a year? When was he reduced in rank from PFC to PVT? September 13, 1958: Lee Oswald is brought with other Marines to his unit by brig guards and was watched there. Lt. Ken Trail offered this information about Lee Oswald. Lt. Allison claims that a rifle was found in his locker that was not turned in from guard duty. There is no arrest record for either event. Note. Neither of these events would have kept Lee Oswald from boarding ship in Yokosuka. Well, except the ship sailed on the 14th and Lee Oswald was still at Atsugi. Harvey is the Oswald that boards the USS Skagit. September 14, 1958: Lee Oswald is assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi. Note: The assignment to a rear unit at Atsugi and the alleged VD treatment from September 16- October 6, 1958 is the reason some people say Lee Harvey Oswald never went to Taiwan or was later assigned to Iwakuni. They use information on only one Oswald for this belief. September 16- October 6, 1958: Lee Oswald makes repeated visits to the Atsugi Station Hospital for treatment of an alleged VD episode. He actually has a UTI, or Urine Track Infection eventually treated by a sulfa drug Pyridium. Note: Lee Oswald must be the rarest of military people in have had VD, shooting himself with a gun, and having it marked as “in the line of duty”. September 30, 1958: Harvey Oswald arrived in Taiwan on September 30. There he was (from Harvey and Lee) “observed by Lt. John Donovan taking photos of troop deployments, fighter aircraft, ammunition bunkers and F-86 aircraft”. Note: F-86 fighters were obsolete by 1958 and were replaced by newer and superior aircraft. This replacement jet was also of the F series known as Century Jets. This jet had a different appearance. September 30, 1958: Harvey's unit arrives in Taiwan, where he suffers a nervous breakdown and is sent back to Japan. When he leaves on October 5 or 6, 1958 he would have been there for about a week. His stay at Iwakuni, Japan could have been for a similar time period. In neither place was there time to take two training classes he mentions in a note. His mention of these training classes would be bogus. The only time he could have taken two training classes with the Army is during his stay in New Orleans in 1958. Not likely. Note: Jack R. Swike in The Missing Chapter says that Lee Harvey Oswald was never in Taiwan. Others have said the same thing using just the information on Lee Oswald at Atsugi. These folks are simply wrong by omission and commission. October 4, 1958: From Harvey and Lee: “On the evening of October 4, Lt. Charles Rhodes heard four or five rifle shots coming from the direction of the position that Oswald was guarding. Rhodes ran toward Oswald and found him slumped against a tree, shaking, and crying while holding his rifle. He kept saying that he just couldn't bear to be on guard duty. Rhodes reported the incident to his commanding officer and two days later Oswald was sent on an 800 mile trip back to Japan. Marine Corps Unit Diary 158-58 lists Oswald in Ping Tung, Taiwan on October 6.” And: “Following his "defection" to the Soviet Union, HARVEY Oswald discussed his assignment in Taiwan with reporter Priscilla Johnson, who wrote news articles about Oswald and his "defection." A naval message of November 4, 1959 reported that Oswald served with Marine Air Control Squadrons in Taiwan. In 1964 The Warren Commission received a memorandum from the Assistant General Counsel for the Department of Defense that stated Oswald had been stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan.” Note: Harvey and Lee provide extensive evidence that Harvey Oswald was in Taiwan at Ping Tung and was ordered back to Japan on October 6, 1958. It is believed that he returned to Japan on October 6, 1958. He must have traveled by aircraft if that is so. October 6, 1958: Harvey Oswald does not join the radar unit at Atsugi, but is assigned to a Marine Squadron at Iwakuni, Japan. Meanwhile Lee is still at Atsugi so Harvey could not go there. Note: According to Harvey and Lee, “Owen Dejanovich, who first met HARVEY Oswald at radar school in Biloxi spent time with him at Iwakuni”. Did Dejanovich really meet Harvey after a year separation and actually did not recognize the difference between Lee and Harvey? Did he think Harvey was Lee? From Harvey and Lee, “Dejanovich thought that Oswald had grown bitter toward the Marines” It may be that Owen Dejanovich did not realize that the Oswald he thought that he knew was Lee, but recognized Harvey as Lee. They were not twins, but did resemble each other and after a year separation that recognition of a remembered person may have dimmed. Oswald’s behavior towards Dejanovich may indicate he knew Lee at Biloxi, and not Harvey. Crossfire by Jim Marrs says Dejanovich and Oswald met at Iwakuni. According to Dejanovich, Oswald had changed into a different and embittered Oswald. Dejanovich was rebuffed and avoided by Oswald as Dejanovich tried to renew the acquaintance formed at Biloxi, MS. He further states that Oswald was raving constantly about American Imperialism. This description by Crossfire of the meeting of Oswald and Dejanovich suggests strongly this was Harvey Oswald. And, Dejanovich new Lee Oswald at Biloxi, MS. Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl. This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time. Romance or Spying? Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week? Was this time enough for romance? Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time? October, 1958: Harvey Oswald left Iwakuni for the US sometime at the middle to end of October. Harvey’s stay at Iwakuni was not long. This could have been as little as a week. Lee Oswald leaves Japan on November 2, 1958 aboard a ship. If Harvey did the same and left in October by ship his stay at Iwakuni was for about a week. October 29, 1958: According to Harvey and Lee, “Marine Corps medical records confirm that HARVEY Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility in Santa Ana, CA on October 29.” Note: Harvey Oswald arrives at Iwakuni, Japan on October 6, 1958. He leaves there some time in October to be at Santa Ana, CA on October 29, 1958. Did he fly or take ship? From Yokosuka, it is at least at 2-week trip by ship to the US. If we assume his trip was as lengthy as Lee’s trip on the USS Barrett, then Harvey could have left Iwakuni, Japan on the 16th of October making his stay at Iwakuni about 10 days. October 31, 1958: Lee Oswald receives his last overseas rating and his ordered home to the US. November 2, 1958: Lee Oswald departs Japan by ship, the USS Barrett in Yokosuka, Japan for a 13-day voyage to San Francisco. Harvey's at Santa Ana on Oct. 29, 1959. Interesting dates. Another "smoking gun"? November 15, 1958: Lee Oswald arrives in San Francisco. November 19, 1958: Lee takes 30 days leave. Note: The entries listed above indicate that Lee Oswald was at this transfer unit for about 4 days. This information is not accurate enough to determine where Lee Oswald was during this period, 16 November, 1958 to 21 December, 1958. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22: Harvey and Lee mentioned Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas). Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site. This information would have been valuable to the Soviets. And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base. Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave. Edited February 25, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, John Butler said: You and Jim have been talking about Harvey and Lee being at Atsugi at the same time. My take on the information is that Harvey was never at Atsugi. Here is what I put in my timeline. Check and see where I went wrong. September 14, 1958: Harvey and his assigned unit sail for the South China Sea. How Harvey arrived in Japan and came aboard his ship, the USS Skagit, is a bit murky to say the least. There is a 20 mile difference between Atsugi and Yokosuka, Japan. Lee’s at Atsugi and Harvey’s at Yokosuka. And, that is as close as they come to each other in Japan according to records. Who knows what events occurred and went unrecorded. John, The map is most appreciated! What about William K. Trail's FBI report? He seemed to believe HARVEY Oswald was in the brig at Atsugi just before he set sail for Taiwan on 9/14/58. Do you think that was an error by Lieutenant Trail? For quick reference.... Edited February 25, 2020 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Jim, Trail and the FBI agent believe there is only one Lee Harvey Oswald. The Lee Harvey Oswald in the Brig on Sep. 13, 1958 must be the Lee Harvey Oswald on was on the Skagit on Sep. 14, 1958 on the way to Taiwan. I have two notions on this FBI doc. Either Lt. Trail did not know Oswald and he was just remembering a name on a form and some vague memory of a person being brought to him on the night of Sep. 13, 1958 and translating this into some kind of firm memory for the FBI agent. Or, on Dec. 5, 1963 while writing up this 302, the agent did what many FBI agents did in the past and will do in the future from this time. Change things to suit him. Trail indicates he didn't know Oswald well. He implies that he served with Oswald in Taiwan from Sep., 1958 to the following year in Jan. or Feb. Either the FBI assumes this or was led to believe this by Trail. Whatever, it is true they did not know Oswald well or his history at that time. Harvey Oswald was barely in Taiwan for any length of time. He arrives there on Sep. 30 and is gone by Oct. 5 or Oct. 6, 1958. That is a week! The events in this letter don't care or recognize that there is other evidence saying Lee Harvey Oswald was assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi on Sep. 14, 1958. Or that he was overgoing treatment for VD during most of the month at Atsugi and not in Taiwan. The third paragraph tells you this is more "let's frame Oswald as a lone nut" type of information. I doubt seriously that Trail knew Oswald at all. One night in Atsugi and one week in Taiwan, if that. The FBI agent may have confronted Trail with documentation saying he saw Oswald on the night of Sep. 13. And, should have known him at Ping Tung, Taiwan. And, Trail complied with that information. This doc is date 12/5/63. Where did the FBI agent get his information about Oswald if he was leading this interrogation? If not Trail's information is vague. Is it trustworthy? The FBI agent still got what he wanted in paragraph 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 John, I certainly agree that we have to approach all these FBI reports about “Lee Harvey Oswald” with caution, but I just don’t see the warning signs you do about the Trail report. HARVEY Oswald spent such a short time in Ping Tung because on Oct. 4, 1958 he had some kind of nervous breakdown and was found crying while on guard duty by Lt. Charles Rhodes. What kind of soldier breaks down and cries in non-hostile territory facing no known combatants? Do we assume Lt. Trail was incorrect when he described this Oswald as “being different than the other men in his group”? After all, as a so-called Marine, HARVEY Oswald to date had spent most of his military career as a messenger boy for a New Orleans dental lab! As you point out, Lt. Trail in the third paragraph of the report apparently indicated that Oswald “did not seem to get along well with the other men,” but in the very next paragraph said that the following year when he saw Oswald again he “seemed to be more sociable” than before. What kind of indictment is that? According to the report, Lt. Trail said he didn’t see all that much of Oswald, but he offered a few details about how he was moved from the brig to the USS Skagit. He said that Oswald was “picked up by a ‘chaser’ with a gun” and that he was “marched from the Marine jail without shoes which seemed odd to him at the time.” To me, this all seems reasonably straightforward, and I think we got the report because Hoover didn’t notice the problems it created for the Official Story®. Just my take…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Jim, My take on the FBI is that the agency is little more than a political enforcement agency rather than a criminal investigation agency. I see them in the matter of the Kennedy assassination as little better than the Russian KGB. The Marines may be different and one could ask do Marine officers really get chummy with their enlisted ranks and pay particularly attention to one just out of the Brig? I don't think so. Something I haven't talked about so far is the number of officers and senior NCOs as versus the lower ranks. They are few in comparison. I think it has to do with pay. The biggest expense generally in any organization is the cost of employees. Army TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment; I believe this is the same in the Marines) calls for company officers to consist of a Company Commander (a Captain), an Executive Officer (a 1st Lt.) and 4 platoon leaders (a 2nd Lt.). Out of this list of 6 officers you might have two. If that extra officer is a 2nd Lt. than that individual generally doesn't know much and is generally lost performing his duty. 6 months training in Officer Candidate School really doesn't prepare one for duty in a line company. They are generally over worked trying to compensate for the lack of other officers. The same problem applies to senior NCOs at the platoon level. TO&E calls for 1 platoon Sgt. (SFC/E7), 4 squad leaders (SSG/E6), and 8 Sgts (SGT./E5). Of this list of Sgts. you might have 1 platoon Sgt. (either an E7 or E6) and some number of "buck" Sgts./E5. Most likely 1 per squad. Generally, a 2nd Lt. doesn't stay around long. He is either promoted to a 1st Lt. and moved to another assignment or up to the Company Commander level. At least this has been my experience. I say all of this to say the typical company officer doesn't know much about his personnel. IMO, Lt. Trail knows to much. That's why I question what is being said in this doc. As far on Harvey on guard duty, I think I have already indicated from what we know about his military career he lacked the training and experience for guard duty in a foreign country. You can take that view or another that says this mental break down on guard duty was staged to get Harvey back to Japan and at the right time the US. This may be the case because the incident happens Oct. 4 and he is gone from Taiwan by Oct. 6 and is in Japan on Oct.6. This requires a flight. Was he accompanied by some handler since his mental breakdown would require one since he was judged incompetent. Where is the record that he was examined medically for a mental condition? This particular incident has always bothered me about Harvey's character. Everything from the Russian episode to the assassination indicates Harvey was a cool, calm, and under pressure a stable individual. This was remarked upon by various police personnel in Dallas, TX. On the other hand, "What kind of soldier breaks down and cries in non-hostile territory facing no known combatants?" Another aspect of life in the service is the prevalence of rumors. All kinds that could prey upon the mind of a young man inducing fear and trepidation. Alone on guard duty there is always the problems of thieves. Korean thieves were legendary. Supposedly, they could steal the socks off your feet while you had your boots on. "According to the report, Lt. Trail said he didn’t see all that much of Oswald, but he offered a few details about how he was moved from the brig to the USS Skagit. He said that Oswald was “picked up by a ‘chaser’ with a gun” and that he was “marched from the Marine jail without shoes which seemed odd to him at the time." I see this as bringing Lee to Lt. Trail on the night of the 13th. And, not as being marched to the Skagit at Yokosuka. This is Lee we are talking about and not Harvey. Harvey, on the Skagit must have time to collect all of his possessions, or at least those necessary to survive a trip by ship (including boots) and arrive at his destination with those things necessary to perform his duty. "To me, this all seems reasonably straightforward, and I think we got the report because Hoover didn’t notice the problems it created for the Official Story®. " I have to disagree. This doc indicates things might not be on the up and up. Most things in the letter are vague except for the things that support the idea that Oswald was a misfit, a criminal, and mentally unstable during this time period. It is Lone Nut material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 20 hours ago, John Butler said: Jim, My take on the FBI is that the agency is little more than a political enforcement agency rather than a criminal investigation agency. I see them in the matter of the Kennedy assassination as little better than the Russian KGB. The Marines may be different and one could ask do Marine officers really get chummy with their enlisted ranks and pay particularly attention to one just out of the Brig? I don't think so. Something I haven't talked about so far is the number of officers and senior NCOs as versus the lower ranks. They are few in comparison. I think it has to do with pay. The biggest expense generally in any organization is the cost of employees. Army TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment; I believe this is the same in the Marines) calls for company officers to consist of a Company Commander (a Captain), an Executive Officer (a 1st Lt.) and 4 platoon leaders (a 2nd Lt.). Out of this list of 6 officers you might have two. If that extra officer is a 2nd Lt. than that individual generally doesn't know much and is generally lost performing his duty. 6 months training in Officer Candidate School really doesn't prepare one for duty in a line company. They are generally over worked trying to compensate for the lack of other officers. The same problem applies to senior NCOs at the platoon level. TO&E calls for 1 platoon Sgt. (SFC/E7), 4 squad leaders (SSG/E6), and 8 Sgts (SGT./E5). Of this list of Sgts. you might have 1 platoon Sgt. (either an E7 or E6) and some number of "buck" Sgts./E5. Most likely 1 per squad. Generally, a 2nd Lt. doesn't stay around long. He is either promoted to a 1st Lt. and moved to another assignment or up to the Company Commander level. At least this has been my experience. I say all of this to say the typical company officer doesn't know much about his personnel. IMO, Lt. Trail knows to much. That's why I question what is being said in this doc. As far on Harvey on guard duty, I think I have already indicated from what we know about his military career he lacked the training and experience for guard duty in a foreign country. You can take that view or another that says this mental break down on guard duty was staged to get Harvey back to Japan and at the right time the US. This may be the case because the incident happens Oct. 4 and he is gone from Taiwan by Oct. 6 and is in Japan on Oct.6. This requires a flight. Was he accompanied by some handler since his mental breakdown would require one since he was judged incompetent. Where is the record that he was examined medically for a mental condition? This particular incident has always bothered me about Harvey's character. Everything from the Russian episode to the assassination indicates Harvey was a cool, calm, and under pressure a stable individual. This was remarked upon by various police personnel in Dallas, TX. On the other hand, "What kind of soldier breaks down and cries in non-hostile territory facing no known combatants?" Another aspect of life in the service is the prevalence of rumors. All kinds that could prey upon the mind of a young man inducing fear and trepidation. Alone on guard duty there is always the problems of thieves. Korean thieves were legendary. Supposedly, they could steal the socks off your feet while you had your boots on. "According to the report, Lt. Trail said he didn’t see all that much of Oswald, but he offered a few details about how he was moved from the brig to the USS Skagit. He said that Oswald was “picked up by a ‘chaser’ with a gun” and that he was “marched from the Marine jail without shoes which seemed odd to him at the time." I see this as bringing Lee to Lt. Trail on the night of the 13th. And, not as being marched to the Skagit at Yokosuka. This is Lee we are talking about and not Harvey. Harvey, on the Skagit must have time to collect all of his possessions, or at least those necessary to survive a trip by ship (including boots) and arrive at his destination with those things necessary to perform his duty. "To me, this all seems reasonably straightforward, and I think we got the report because Hoover didn’t notice the problems it created for the Official Story®. " I have to disagree. This doc indicates things might not be on the up and up. Most things in the letter are vague except for the things that support the idea that Oswald was a misfit, a criminal, and mentally unstable during this time period. It is Lone Nut material. John, We agree completely on the integrity of the FBI in this so-called investigation, but since it was the only Federal agency interviewing people and collecting/confiscating evidence, we simply can’t ignore them. The case was massive, and Hoover made lots of mistakes in the cover-up, and that gives us a chance to find at least a portion of the truth. The difficult part, and the Trail interview is a perfect example, is knowing which reports and parts of reports were legitimate and which were false. Trying to figure out what makes the most sense in relation to the coverup has always been a significant factor for me in analyzing FBI reports. Until reading your post above, it had never occurred to me that Harvey’s Ping Tung “breakdown” might have been a staged event (or even a legend created after the fact). It does, however, make perfect sense. Days after being airlifted out of Taiwan, Harvey was at the little MACS 9 facility in Santa Ana, speaking in Russian, reading Russian books and newspapers, and spouting all things commie, all of this for the first time. The caretaker “Marguerite” would be attacked by a box of candy, allegedly, on Dec. 12, setting up a hardship discharge. Preparations for the “defection” were in full swing. This all just makes sense. But what also makes sense to me is the need to keep Harvey and Lee apart during the short time both both were at the Atsugi base prior to the USS Skagit setting sail for the South China Sea. To me, at least, the Trail report also just makes sense, and I tend to believe it. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about that. It would interesting to search for additional details about both Harvey's Ping Tung "breakdown" and the hours leading up to his embarkation on the USS Skagit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) Jim, I shouldn't have been so cavalier in saying I disagree. I should have said I disagree in part. As always, your comments make good sense. I keep them in mind in case I go wrong or wrong headed. I don't disagree on the sequence of events so much. I do believe that Harvey was not at Atsugi, but at Yokosuga ready to board the Skagit. There is no need for Harvey to get anywhere near Atsugi. It doesn't make sense to risk exposure. The evidence for Harvey at Atsugi is weak. On the other hand, I think they were in the same area at the same time many times. An example would be the TSBD, New Orleans leaflets, and Dallas rooming houses, or safe houses, perhaps. So, it could be that Harvey was at Atsugi getting more training or indoctrination from the Joint Technical Support Group. It might explain his alleged breakdown in Taiwan. The Russians did suspect Harvey had training to resist interrogation. The Dallas Police thought the same thing. He didn't cave after a good beating there. He has more bruises, IMO, in Dallas photos, perhaps more than the Texas Theater photos. The question is how did he get there to Atsugi? And, when? The evidence that Harvey was in the Brig at Atsugi seems to be weak to me. How did he lose his rank as PFC? Atsugi was an inland base for the Japanese Army and air force, before we took over, about 20 miles from the sea. There was a huge cavern, or man made area, under the base. Ideal for secret operations. If he was where was Lee? In the same jail? Roaming around the base when he was supposed to be in the Brig? The following day, on the 14th. Lee is assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi. Harvey was aboard the Skagit on the 14th. This evidence doesn't necessarily put Harvey at Atsugi. The jail time, the Taiwan incident, and Trail's description of Harvey all adds up to the official version of the lone, mentally disturbed assassin. It is Lone Nut material. As such, it arouses some degree of skepticism on my part with the whole document. The part that bothers me the most is after Harvey's break down incident in Taiwan there is no psychological evaluation that I know about. He is just flown to Iwakuni. I would guess to meet the white female Russian spy? Edited February 26, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now