Mark Zaid, JFK and Trump

[James DiEugenio]

22 minutes ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

This is getting like when I quit Facebook the day after Trump was installed as president. Time to step away before I start not liking people I'm supposed to respect or love.

Andrew, if in your hatred of Trump, you are all for Bandera's followers, and you think it was a wise choice for us to encourage them to take power, and if you like the 1935 Berlin images that are taking place there today, by all means say goodbye to me.

But Scott Fitzgerald once said that the mark of a fine mind was to be able to balance and understand two opposing ideas at once.

Edited November 15, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Brancato]

Pretty amazing that Kathy’s Snopes post got so little comment. Mr. Wheeler did not do his own fact checking, which puts in doubt all his so called facts which Jim has been dining on. 

Jim - this is where you’ve gone over the line. I don’t dispute the fascist Nazis gaining traction in Ukraine. Sorta like here. But Putin didn’t invade Crimea to protect ethnic Russians. And the US diplomatic Corp is not protecting Ukrainian Fascists when they take umbrage at Russia’s annexation. 

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

I commented on it, Paul. It's nothing new. Robert pulls raw stuff out of his a-s from a bunch of sources, and acts like he's feeding us crumbs from the newest theory that's caught his attention, until he's on to something else.. Jim to be fair,  sometimes responds "I didn't know that!.or really?  .

[James DiEugenio]

I don't share the same sources Paul.  And I differentiated what I said from what Mr Wheeler said.

Paul, this is where you have gone over the line:

1. Russia did not invade Ukraine.

2.  Russia did not invade Crimea.  They had a 17,000 man force there already.  

3. Crimea clearly did not want to be part of the neo Nazi Ukraine regime.  The numbers have always been at 85 per cent and above being against that.

4.  The US diplomatic corps under Biden, Pyatt and Nuland did not care one iota about what they were unleashing in Ukraine. It did not matter to them if what they unleashed was a neo Nazi group that ran the country into the ground.

If you recall, from my history lesson, Yushchenko was the USA backed guy who ran the country from 2005-10.  He honored Bandera and Lebed.  He ran the economy into the ground. So please do not tell me that Pyatt and Nuland did not know what they were doing.  They had a five year example before they unleashed Maidan.

My final point.  Which should be obvious by now.  None of this would be happening today if Pyatt and Nuland and Biden had not done what they did.  Parallel: Vietnam would not have happened if the Geneva Accords had been upheld.

Edited November 15, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Andrew, if in your hatred of Trump, you are all for Bandera's followers, and you think it was a wise choice for us to encourage them to take power, and if you like the 1935 Berlin images that are taking place there today, by all means say goodbye to me.

But Scott Fitzgerald once said that the mark of a fine mind was to be able to balance and understand two opposing ideas at once.

Jim,

        IMO, we can, and should, be justifiably critical of NATO aggression against the former Soviet Union without endorsing Kremlin aggression against Ukraine (and against liberal democracies in the EU and North America.)

        Part of the basic disagreement here about Russia and Ukraine (and Trump) is based on differing perceptions of Putin and his motives.  As I said above, I don't view Putin as a benevolent world leader who wants to help the Ukrainian people, or strengthen liberal democracy in the West.  I view Putin as a militant Russian nationalist, (and imperialist) who is trying to implement Alexander Dugin's 1997 strategy to increase Russian hegemony in Eurasia.  

    I understand why Putin intervened in Syria in 2015 against our wrong-headed, Neocon/PNAC war against the Assad regime.  But Putin's regime, in general, is not focused on improving the plight of humanity.  It is focused on advancing the interests of Russia.  The current Russian Federation is, IMO, a quasi-fascist police state-- a post-Christian, post-Leninist, transmogrified Russian Empire.

    What do they want?  The same thing our military-industrial complex wants.

     The Scythians want to steal other people's stuff.

Edited November 15, 2019 by W. Niederhut

[Jeff Carter]

34 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jim,

        IMO, we can, and should, be justifiably critical of NATO aggression against the former Soviet Union without endorsing Kremlin aggression against Ukraine (and against liberal democracies in the EU and North America.)

        Part of the basic disagreement here about Russia and Ukraine (and Trump) is based on differing perceptions of Putin and his motives.  As I said above, I don't view Putin as a benevolent world leader who wants to help the Ukrainian people, or strengthen liberal democracy in the West.  I view Putin as a militant Russian nationalist, (and imperialist) who is trying to implement Alexander Dugin's 1997 strategy to increase Russian hegemony in Eurasia.  

    I understand why Putin intervened in Syria in 2015 against our wrong-headed, Neocon/PNAC war against the Assad regime.  But Putin's regime, in general, is not focused on improving the plight of humanity.  It is focused on advancing the interests of Russia.  The current Russian Federation is, IMO, a quasi-fascist police state-- a post-Christian, post-Leninist, transmogrified Russian Empire.

    What do they want?  The same thing our military-industrial complex wants.

     The Scythians want to steal other people's stuff.

I don't believe anyone has claimed Putin to be a "benevolent world leader" in these threads, or claimed that Russia is "focussed on improving the plight of humanity". That is your projection. A false narrative over Ukraine has been challenged. Where has Russia  "stolen other people's stuff" or exhibited hegemonic design? Most of that talk is also projection, most often by Russophobic right wing fanatics in the region.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jeff Carter

[Bob Ness]

On another note: The President is Witness Tampering in real time for all to see! Hahaha!

Get real Trumpsters!

Pardon storm for guilty on seven counts including witness tampering? Stone and Trump calling from the same play book.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Bob Ness

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

This is getting like when I quit Facebook the day after Trump was installed as president. Time to step away before I start not liking people I'm supposed to respect or love.

I rather enjoy the back and forth. I don't take it personally - I think most of the people on this board think the same thing. It forces me to use my brain periodically haha!

[James DiEugenio]

This is what Biden and Nuland did to Ukraine:

The deindustrialisation of a nation which was the USSR’s largest producer of automotives, has resulted in it being almost wholly reliant on western car imports. This was a nation, as the film explains, which at the break-up of the Soviet Union was included in the world’s top ten most developed nations, which had a thriving aviation and space industry unrivalled by any other post-Soviet state. Now, since the shrinking of the economy began in 2014, the nation is ranked 60th place in the world by the UN in terms of GDP, even lower than the African nations of Sudan and Angola.

And this is why they needed the loan and the whole EU choice made everything worse.  What Putin wanted to do was  to make it a tripartite agreement so that Ukraine could still keep up its trade with Russia.  EU did not want that.

[James DiEugenio]

Steve Cohen was one of the best Russian scholars ever.  He used to go head to head with Neocon nut Dick Pipes.  

He predicted Yeltsin would be a disaster for Russia, which he was.  And he lamented the refusal of the USA to accept Gorbachev's nuclear cutdown in Iceland.  In fact, he lamented the fact that every time Gorby did something we liked, he was asked to do more.  Until finally, the tree limb gave way, giving an opening to Yeltsin and his debacle.

Cohen, because he was right, is now isolated.

Here he is on Maidan and the Ukraine debacle

https://www.thenation.com/article/four-years-of-ukraine-and-the-myths-of-maidan/

Edited November 15, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Bob Ness]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

1. Russia did not invade Ukraine.

This is flat out wrong. I don't know where you get this information but it is now an established fact that Russia moved unmarked troops, armor and soldiers into separatist controlled areas of Eastern Ukraine as well as mercenaries into Crimea. There are no other parties that could do so or were in a position to do so.

Russian troops bivouacked in Sebastopol are stationed there under agreement with the Ukraine and do not have carte blanche to engage in military activities, overt or covert, in Crimea or any other part of Ukraine. Similar to Guantanamo, the US engaging in a conflict with soldiers from that base against Cuban forces would be called "invading" Cuba. Their geographic location, permitted by international agreements, does not mean they are the governing institution by whim in Cuba.

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

3. Crimea clearly did not want to be part of the neo Nazi Ukraine regime.  The numbers have always been at 85 per cent and above being against that.

This is also false. The 85% number you are referring to was after the Russians engaged in a hybrid warfare campaign and invaded Ukraine. 

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

This is flat out wrong. I don't know where you get this information but it is now an established fact that Russia moved unmarked troops, armor and soldiers into separatist controlled areas of Eastern Ukraine as well as mercenaries into Crimea. There are no other parties that could do so or were in a position to do so.

Bob - it is not exactly an “established fact” if you cannot account for what, when, or where.

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

This is also false. The 85% number you are referring to was after the Russians engaged in a hybrid warfare campaign and invaded Ukraine. 

There was 85% support for full independence in Crimea from 1991 through 1995. Polling done by the UN from 2008 through 2011 showed 64-70% in favour of joining the Russian Federation. Ahead of the referendum, both Ukrainian and German sponsored polls found over 70% support for joining the Russian Federation. Polls conducted since, up to this year, have found over 80% support for the referendum’s result.

[Douglas Caddy]

David Talbot wrote on Facebook today:

"Trump and all the president's men are clearly "going through some things," in the now immortal words of The Donald. My old FB "friend" Roger Stone, one of the Republican Party's leading black ops masters ever since Nixon, is now facing many years in prison (which at age 68 could amount to a life sentence). Next in the Trump jailhouse rumba line: Rudy Giuliani. The former New York federal prosecutor and mayor -- and believe it or not, national hero -- is almost certainly now going to prison. Giuliani will have the rare pleasure of strolling in the prison yard with some of the mobsters he put behind bars. After Ambassador Yovanovitch's dramatic testimony this morning, Giuliani has gone from being "America's Mayor" to public enemy number two. Number one is his client"

 

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

Bob - it is not exactly an “established fact” if you cannot account for what, when, or where.

If I were to provide sources for you Jeff, what source would you like to concede the point? Every time I've provided sources for you they haven't been acknowledged as valid no matter who the source or their expertise is. Would you like a letter from Putin to acknowledge it? You tell me and I'll endeavor to provide it.

[Jeff Carter]

17 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

If I were to provide sources for you Jeff, what source would you like to concede the point? Every time I've provided sources for you they haven't been acknowledged as valid no matter who the source or their expertise is. 

Just a source that isn't someone's opinion. If the evidence consists of "there are no other parties that could do so or were in a position to do so" then it isn't evidence.