shadows on the steps

[Pat Speer]

I was in Dallas on the weekend of the anniversary, and found myself standing in front of the TSBD at 12:30. And I looked at the steps from the angle of Altgens. Well, it hit me then that the Lovelady figure in Altgens was standing in the middle of the steps, and not on the far west of the steps, as seems apparent from the photo. 

So I walked over to the steps. And noticed something. The shadow of the wall by the steps cuts across the top step at an angle. Well, this proves Prayer person was in the back corner, and not on the top step. or standing halfway on the second to the top step and top step. I walked up to the top and turned around. When I stood up against the west side of the staircase, I was able to get my face half in shade/half in sun. But when I stood on the top steps in a normal relaxed manner, my face was always in sun. I'm not sure if this means anything. But I seem to remember someone holding out that Prayer person was straddled on the top two steps. And there's no way he/she could have done that without being at least halfway in the sun. 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

31 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

But I seem to remember someone holding out that Prayer person was straddled on the top two steps. And there's no way he/she could have done that without being at least halfway in the sun. 

 

Pat:

I appreciate your effort. Your findings could be potentially very useful. However, I feel that your conclusions are not based on a well documented experiment. Where exactly did you stand when you were halfway in the sun and standing on steps? Were you rotated in parallel with the plane of the shadow? It would require somebody to have photographed you from Darnell vantage point at different locations and postures. Without any supporting data on where exactly you stood and the corresponding images, I find your conclusion about impossibility of Prayer Man standing with his right foot on the second step and his left foot on the top step as not substantiated.

As the shadows on the steps and top landing are concerned, does the new railing paralleling the western wall contribute to the shadow on steps? In my view, i does.

 

[Pat Speer]

 

 

 

I stood on the top step and the sun was on my face. I'm 6'4" tall. So I stepped down the next two steps and as you can imagine, I was even more in the sun. So I went back up to the top and forced myself up against the western rail (which is only a few inches from the wall), and found that then and only then I could be half in/half out of the sun.

In order to be in shadow I needed to take a step back from the top step. 

I realized when I took the photo it wouldn't be scientific. But it doesn't matter where the photographer was on 11-23-63. The fact is that anyone in shadow on the top step circa 12:30 PM would have to be a few feet back from the edge of the top step, and not straddling the top step.

I took another photo looking straight down upon the top step. My feet are in this one to help provide perspective. LOL. Here it is. 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

I am not sure why could Prayer Man not stand in the shadow while standing with one foot on the second step? The two orange blobs superimposed on your picture shows approximate locations of Prayer Man's feet in the solution "one-foot-down-one-foot-up". Prayer Man's face and his body would be in the shadow and only the back of his right hand, the fleshy part of his right elbow and the left thigh and knee would be lit by the sunlight. The picture on the right is a preliminary and unfinished fit I made with a new posture of Lee Oswald (the one constructed based on the 3D reconstruction of the brightness map) and it is as I left it in June. The left thigh should be exposed to the sun more than it is shown in my preliminary fit, however, I hope you got my point. 

Prayer Man's location is not something we can just guess or arbitrarily change as it suits us. He stood at one particular location in the doorway and his figure features need to show specific relationships to the important landmarks in the doorway such as the vertical pole of the aluminium door frame (crossing Prayer Man's head) and the distance of his right elbow from the brick column. If you place Prayer Man to the back of the doorway, to the corner, he certainly will be in full shadow (but then, Prayer Man's right hand does reflect sunlight and he therefore needs to be close to the plane separating the shadow from sunlight) but other features would not be at appropriate distances from the doorway landmarks, in particular, Prayer man's right elbow would be too far from the brick column. 

I wrote a blog article on the landmarks and body height back then in 2016, only few days after I joined the Forum. In retrospect, it contains simple graphics and the doorway was not based on realistic measurements yet, however, it is still useful in explaining what to watch for when estimating Prayer Man's location and body height.

https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=436&action=edit

If you would place Prayer Man anywhere on the top landing, his body height would be only 5' 2 1/2''. This is, namely, the height at which a plane just touching the top of Prayer Man's head would be relative to the top landing. However, such small person would also have short arms and they would be about 2 inches too high compared to how they appear in Darnell film. This is because two people standing on two different platforms 7 inches apart and having their heads at the same height would also show differences in their body proportions. The short person on the top plane (=top landing) would have his arms about two inches above the arms of a tall person standing on the lower plane (second step). We do not see a short person on the top landing in Darnell, the only accurate fit is achieved with a tall person (5' 9 5/8') standing effectively on the second step. Please find here a comparison of the effects of the platform height on body proportions of two people having heads at the same height.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

Pat:

I guess I understand why you have experienced being lit by sunlight when you tried to reproduce the one-foot down pose in the Depository doorway. The railing has been installed so handily that it prevents anyone to stand exactly as my model predicts - the vertical pole of the railing on the top step interferes. You had to stand slightly to the east (away from the western wall) because the rail did not allow you to come close enough to the wall. 

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Pat:

I guess I understand why you have experienced being lit by sunlight when you tried to reproduce the one-foot down pose in the Depository doorway. The railing has been installed so handily that it prevents anyone to stand exactly as my model predicts - the vertical pole of the railing on the top step interferes. You had to stand slightly to the east (away from the western wall) because the rail did not allow you to come close enough to the wall. 

Well spotted Andrej. Sure looks different with the rail roughly removed, eh?

[Cliff Varnell]

A question for those who are far more knowledgeable about the Oswald Assassination than I:

How many TSBD employees didn't watch the motorcade parade by?

Oswald was charged with shooting JFK with three 6.5mm Full Metal Jacket rounds.  The shallow wound in JFK's back was in the soft tissue between T3 and the upper margin of the scapula.

Since 6.5mm FMJ rounds don't leave shallow wounds in soft tissue, the official charge is provably false.  Oswald's alibi is that he went out to watch the parade. 

So who didn't watch the parade?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

Click this pic 3 or 4 times before its original size appears and becomes readable

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

 

Who saw who

Who was on the steps, their race and their job category.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

Thanks to Gary Murr.

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Cliff Varnell]

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Click this pic 3 or 4 times before its original size appears and becomes readable

Thanks Bart.  From what I can gather, out of all the employees who showed up for work that day there were only 4 in the building who didn't watch the motorcade:  Doris Burns, Jack Dougherty, Geneva Hine and Troy West.

Burns statement: 

I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so since he was tha tclose, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out the window. I didn't care-- enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in there, so then I started down the hail to Allyn and Bacon. As I went down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that.
I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said "Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing. so I said "Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got hurt."

Dougherty's statement:

Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.
Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I could get out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you take a look at it---did you go out and take a look at it, or didn't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well---no, sir.

Hine's statement:

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building?
Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL How did 'you find that out?
Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I cannot remember.
Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact?
Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I bad previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it.
Mr. BALL. Did they all go out?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out.
Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office?
Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there.
Mr. BALL. Then he went out?
Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will go out for 5 minutes."

West's statement:

Mr. BELIN - Now going back to November 22, you said you quit for lunch around noon on that day on Friday, November 22?
Mr. WEST - Yes. About 12 o'clock we always quit for lunch.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember any of the men coming down the elevator that day? Bonnie Ray Williams or James Jarman Jr., or Danny Arce, or any one else coming down that morning? Charlie Givens? Do you remember them coming down the elevator, or don't you remember.
Mr. WEST - I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN - Now, after you quit for lunch, you made the coffee then?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Were did you make the coffee?
Mr. WEST - I made the coffee right there close to the wrapping mail table where I wrap mail.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. WEST - Well, I sit down to eat my lunch.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. WEST - Well, I had just, after I made coffee, I just had started to eat my lunch because I was a little hungry - I didn't anything that morning before I went to work - and I had started to eat my lunch.
But before I got through, well, all of this was, I mean, the police and things was coming in, and I was just spellbound. I just didn't know what was the matter. So I didn't get through eating. I had to eat about half my lunch, and that is all.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time.
Mr. BELIN - At any time while you were making coffee or eating your lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I didn't see.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you - while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WEST - Well, that was the police.
Mr. BELIN - A police officer?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Anyone else?
Mr. WEST - I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowed of them coming in there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police.
Mr. BELIN - Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come in ahead of him, if you remember?
Mr. WEST - Really, I just don't know.
Mr. BELIN - That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you to say if you don't remember. Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like that?
Mr. WEST - I can't remember.
Mr. BELIN - Were you working when you were eating your lunch? Were you facing the elevator or not when you were eating your lunch? Were you facing any on the elevators back there?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I was always - I mean I would always be with my back kind of, you know, towards the elevators and facing the front side over on the side.
Mr. BELIN - The Elm Street side?
Mr. WEST - Toward Elm Street side.
Mr. BELIN - So you don't know whether anyone was using the elevators?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether anyone was going up and down the stairs?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know anything else about what happened on November 22, that might be helpful or relevant here?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I don't really.
Mr. BELIN - Were you ever on the second floor on November 22?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I never did hardly ever leave the first floor. That is I just stayed there where all my work was, and I just stayed there.
Mr. BELIN - On November 22, did you ever leave the first floor?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I never did leave the first floor.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else that you can think of, whether I asked it or not?
Mr. WEST - Well, I don't know anything else. I know of nothing else.

Of the four TSBD employees in the building who didn't watch the motorcade one got to the window too late, one wanted to watch the motorcade but continued to work, one worked the phones so "the girls" could watch the motorcade, and one guy was eating his lunch and saw nothing, heard nothing, said nothing.

Only Troy West expressed no desire to see the motorcade.

Conclusions:  JFK's back wound was inconsistent with a strike by a 6.5mm FMJ round.  Oswald's alibi was consistent with the behavior of almost all the employees in the building that day.

Question:  Does Oswald's alibi depend on his being Prayer Man?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Thanks to Gary Murr.

 

They must have re-done the rail. As shown in my photo, the rail goes all the way up onto the top step. And I don't believe the rail is currently 11 inches from the wall. More like 6 inches. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

They must have re-done the rail. As shown in my photo, the rail goes all the way up onto the top step. And I don't believe the rail is currently 11 inches from the wall. More like 6 inches. 

Pat, I think you are mistaking the brick buttress at the West side for the rail.  The depth of 11 " is for the depth of the buttress, not the rail. If we want to be picky,  the sketch is incorrect as the stone base of the west column projects further out than the brick buttress.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Guest]

Again thanks to Gary Murr for these fab drawings that were done within weeks after the assassination.

The rail used to be centre based and was doubled and moved to ts sides as that entrance became a fire escape exit. Same with the landing which was moved more inward. The old landing would have been a hazard if a stampede of people moved through that exit and the small platform would make sure the people exiting would fall of the stairs.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

I am with Sean Murphy on this btw.