Bill Simpich Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 DJ, I think the performance is a reference to how she wasn't broken by Fernando Barrios/LITEMPO-4, a skilled interrogator who used torture all the time. I have never seen any convincing evidence that Duran was a spook of any kind. If you have any leads in that regard, it would be good to see what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Bill Simpich said: DJ, I think the performance is a reference to how she wasn't broken by Fernando Barrios/LITEMPO-4, a skilled interrogator who used torture all the time. I have never seen any convincing evidence that Duran was a spook of any kind. If you have any leads in that regard, it would be good to see what they are. Broken or tortured about what? Sex with Ozzie? The de la Paz Party? They never seemed serious about making that stick... seemed just a CIA agent reinforced story ... Cobb would still be talking about that party years later..... Supporting Alvarado?... I mean it would tie some of it together... but she supposedly never said it and Alvarado recanted... despite believing it was the 18th and not 28th.... ”If” we accept Duran and Azcue for their word that the man was not our Oswald, she wouldn’t be telling them a story they didn’t already know... they’d be making sure the correct version of the story would be told.... “performance” I didn’t think she was in the game that way either... why then do you think Proenza recruited her? and really, rough her up to say what? thx... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 David, no, it looks like we agree on Duran was not a spook of any kind. I don't think Preonza recruited Duran - quoting Anthony Mugan, "105-3702-216 is a report from SA FERRIS claiming that TERESA PROENZA says Oswald spoke English to her FIRST - and then she turned him over to a superior who did speak English.." Duran was not Proenza's superior - Duran was a secretary to Cuban consul Euesbio Azcue, Proenza was a cultural attache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 49 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said: David, no, it looks like we agree on Duran was not a spook of any kind. I don't think Preonza recruited Duran - quoting Anthony Mugan, "105-3702-216 is a report from SA FERRIS claiming that TERESA PROENZA says Oswald spoke English to her FIRST - and then she turned him over to a superior who did speak English.." Duran was not Proenza's superior - Duran was a secretary to Cuban consul Euesbio Azcue, Proenza was a cultural attache. Maybe I should have put it a different way... what I have read was that TERESA pressure DURAN to quit the group she was in - IMCRC - to take the vacancy created by the leaving of AZCUE's secretary... The bottom memo reads as if PROENZA was one of our assets.... I didn't think that was the case, right? I also found this - if we remember, the first early morning 9/27 call was in perfect SPANISH... I had not seen this before when discussing the arrival of "Oswald"... any thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Rob Clark newest episode relating to Mexico City with Savastano 👍 Ep. 163 ~ Mexico City Clusterf*ck w/ Carmine Savastano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Mugan Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 Thanks for all the extensive information...it's taken me a while to read and consider... David...Whilst I tend to be cautious about witness testimony, particularly testimony recorded well after the fact about events that wouldn't have been particularly memorable at the time, I am persuaded that the evidence for the bus trips may well have been created or adjusted after the fact. The placing of the Lee, Harvey Oswald name in the correct alphabetical place for Lee Harvey Oswald is perhaps the most important single piece of hard evidence for that. It may well have been a subconscious error by someone who knew the real name, or some kind soul leaving a breadcrumb for future historians but either way the odds against getting that combination by chance are remote. Does anyone know if airline flights from Dallas to Mexico City on the evening of the 26th September were ever considered (assuming there were such flights)? It's probably just coincidence, but LAROB was an American Airlines employee and one of the odd bits about the range of sources and agents included in the polygraph tests was including the LIFIRE surveillance team who watched the airport (specifically travellers to Cuba, but...). A flight might be a way of squaring the circle between being in Dallas on the 26th September and in Mexico City on the 27th. Absolutely no evidence of it at all that I can find on basic internet searches though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 9 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said: A flight might be a way of squaring the circle between being in Dallas on the 26th September and in Mexico City on the 27th. Absolutely no evidence of it at all that I can find on basic internet searches though... Thanks Anthony for taking the time.... took me almost 2 years to get that info out about that trip. The other point that really shouldn't be glossed over - or omitted entirely - is what Odio and her sister say about the man visiting them at the same time as he's supposed to be on a bus. I also cannot stress enough the role of the man in charge of all the Mexico City evidence... ALL of it. "..in the office of RAFAEL HERNANDEZ OCHOA" ... "investigative assistance in the OSWALD case" Both Echeverria and OCHOA were US Intel assets. CIA and FBI respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Going back to Proenza encountering Oswald - I do not think she was a US asset, rather the AMROD sting on Proenza and VP Joaquin Ordoqui in 1963 establishes that she was a target - my thoughts are contained in State Secret, Chapter 5: If Jack Childs/SOLO was telling the truth...a big if...about Fidel being told after 11/22 that Oswald came into the Cuban embassy and on his way out shouted, "I'm going to kill Kennedy", a few things would have greater clarity. For starters, the Oswald character would have been told "you're in the wrong place - go to the consulate". Castro said that when Oswald "stalked in and walked in and ran out that it itself was a suspicious movement, because nobody comes to an Embassy for a visa (they go to a Consulate)." See Jim Hosty's Assignment: Oswald, p. 277, or to the second document below. There's support from a surprising quarter. Teresa Proenza, the cultural attache, also reported being approached by Oswald in the embassy, and passed him on to someone higher in rank - that certainly wasn't Duran, who was lower in rank and worked in the consulate. Here's the very first document, a 6/11/64 26-page SOLO report that is constantly referenced...http://vault.fbi.gov...part-60-of/view (p. 86 is the page about LHO, 19 of 26) written by ACB of the NY field office to the Director, starting at page 68. "(Castro) said Oswald was involved. Our people in Mexico gave us the details in a full report of how he acted when he came to Mexico to their embassy. He said first of all nobody goes that way for a visa. Second, it cost money to go that distance. He stormed into the embassy, demanded the visa and when it was refused to him headed out saying I'm going to kill Kennedy for this. Now here's the second document, on the next day, 6/12/64. This follow-up is from JDO at the NY field office to the Director, where Childs is quizzed at great length about anything else he might know about Oswald in Mexico City. Hosty has a copy of it in his book at 276-278, the FBI website has it at http://vault.fbi.gov...rt-59-of-1/view (pp 58-59) This document states that the man called Oswald visited the Cuban Embassy - not the Consulate. "I was told this by my people in the Embassy - exactly how he (OSWALD) stalked in and walked in and ran out. That in itself was a suspicious movement, because nobody comes to an Embassy for a visa (they go to a Consulate.)" "The informant stated that the implication was that Oswald came running in like a "mad man" demanding a visa and immediately the people in the Embassy suspected that something wrong - why go to the Soviet Union through Cuba?" "...(Oswald) yelled on his way out 'I'm going to kill that bastard. I'm going to kill Kennedy'." "(Jack Childs) was of the opinion that the Cuban Embassy people must have told Oswald something to the effect that they were sorry that they did not let Americans into Cuba because the US government stopped Cuba from letting them in and that is when Oswald shouted out the statement about killing Kennedy." The report states that Beatrice Johnson (the CPUSA liaison to the Cuban Communist Party) and Fidel's physician and aide Rene Vallejo were with Castro and Childs in the conversation. According to Silvia Duran - although she never referred to her by name - Beatrice Johnson was someone Oswald should have contacted if he was serious about wanting to go to Cuba. AS Beatrice Johnson was the CPUSA liaison to the Cuban Communist Party, working with those two parties were the way Silvia told LHO that most people from the USA use to go to Cuba. Here's the third document, a memo from Baumgartner to Sullivan on 6/12/64. Note how the story wobbles: "Castro reportedly stated, 'our people gave us the details in a full report of how he (Oswald) acted when he came to Mexico to their embassy (uncertain whether he means Cuban or Russian embassy)." The fourth document, Hoover's famous memo to Rankin on 6/17/64, scrubs away 1) any reference to the Cuban consulate, or 2)"my people" at the Embassy, 3) the man called Oswald running in "like a mad man", or 4) the people in the embassy suspecting something was wrong, or 5) the man calling JFK a "bastard". In short, it erases Fidel's astonishment that Oswald went to the embassy instead of the consulate. The FBI and CIA chiefs weren't about to let J. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Warren Commission know all that. A question I have is whether Rankin or any other Warren staffers ever actually saw this memo? If this event occurred, it looks like this was an entirely separate incident than the three incidents that Duran had with "Oswald" at the consulate. This would be a fourth incident, with "Oswald" at the Cuban Embassy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Thanks Bill.... One of my biggest stumbling blocks for ANY American being there is the reaction of AZCUE... According to AMMUG/1, AZCUE should have seen the opportunity in Oswald to turn an American into a double agent... or at the very least question him as an intelligence officer should have.... but no such luck... AZCUE claiming he just runs this crazy man off is terribly hard to accept... when those in his position SHOULD be looking for assets every day... I mean, wasn't that his real job there... to be a spy? DJ Furthermore, why would LITAMIL/7&9 lie about Oswald NOT being there if it was up to them to support the company line? Their reply about Oswald was on the 23rd and 27th of Nov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 From the Warren Report Vol. 6 page 304: "The clothes which Oswald was wearing in the photograph which appears on the application appear to be the same as some of those found among his effects after the assassination, and the photograph itself appears to be from the same negative as a photograph found among his effects." (emphasis mine) What's up with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Matt Allison said: From the Warren Report Vol. 6 page 304: "The clothes which Oswald was wearing in the photograph which appears on the application appear to be the same as some of those found among his effects after the assassination, and the photograph itself appears to be from the same negative as a photograph found among his effects." (emphasis mine) What's up with that? Morning Matt... OK, now we need to find that negative in the evidence..... that statement has footnote 551: "Compare CE 2564 (visa app w/photo) with CE155 and 161" 155 & 161 are a white shirt and a sweater vest that may be the ones on the photo... but there is no reference to a source for a negative in his possessions... his property inventory lists all sorts of unspecified negatives.... But... if the negative was found in his possession, DURAN did not send him anywhere for photos... These two images were found among his possessions... (we both know that passport photo shops don't give negatives... just the images) these also do not have the staple marks which Duran says were needed for both copies of the application. Azcue also mentions this man coming in a day or 2 before the application... dated Friday the 27th... He supposedly only arrived in Mexico that morning at 10:30am... The decision was made to NEVER show DURAN the Visa application or related photo... He returned June 1962.... Mexico/Dallas Sept/Oct 1963. The enlargement at the right WITHOUT STAPLES means the negative was used, not a photo of the photo. negar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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