Pamela Brown Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: I'm sure Mort Sahl will find some end of life comfort with this Dylan song. It's so odd -- I was attending NYU grad school and saw Mort Sahl at one of the coffee houses in the Village once or twice, but I never even heard of Dylan at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said: It's so odd -- I was attending NYU grad school and saw Mort Sahl at one of the coffee houses in the Village once or twice, but I never even heard of Dylan at that time. His coffee-house days in New York were limited, and soon became legend rather than residency. Dylan, and his handlers (John Hammond, Albert Grossman), had larger exposure and a national audience in mind. He spent more time in the 1960s living in the Village than playing there. I don't criticize; he was loved in New York for "making good" in the Folk movement, and also held in some jealousy for his output and growing influence, not to mention the song publishing monies that Albert Grossman had seen in him. But the audience that felt betrayed when he plugged in and moved away from music based on traditional song was by that time worldwide. Among New York folkie types -- Pete Seeger at the Newport Folk Festival, for instance -- the electric guitar thing was the formal announcement of a severing of ties that had been strained for some time. Edited March 29, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, David Andrews said: His coffee-house days in New York were limited, and soon became legend rather than residency. Dylan, and his handlers (John Hammond, Albert Grossman), had larger exposure and a national audience in mind. He spent more time in the 1960s living in the Village than playing there. I don't criticize; he was loved in New York for "making good" in the Folk movement, and also held in some jealousy for his output and growing influence, not to mention the song publishing monies that Albert Grossman had seen in him. But the audience that felt betrayed when he plugged in and moved away from music based on traditional song was by that time worldwide. Among New York folkie types -- Pete Seeger at the Newport Folk Festival, for instance -- the electric guitar thing was the formal announcement of a severing of ties that had been strained for some time. David, Have you seen Martin Scorcese's documentary, No Direction Home, about Dylan and Greenwich Village in the early 60s? I thought it was spell-binding all three or four times I watched it. That was before my time, but I've been a folk (and rock) musician since the early 70s, and erstwhile Dylan impersonator, and I played music with some folk musicians from New York and New England in college. (Mary Chapin Carpenter was a student at Brown in those days.) Meanwhile, the Talking Heads had been in school down the Hill at RISD before moving to Manhattan and recording Psycho Killer in '77. The New England "counterculture" folk scene went the way of the dodo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: David, Have you seen Martin Scorcese's documentary, No Direction Home, about Dylan and Greenwich Village in the early 60s? I own the DVD, thanks. I've been a Dylan fan since I wore out the Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits LP at age 9. One of the many times I've seen him was in Boston, 1994, where he put on a great show with a great band - it was obvious that some kind of comeback was in the works, and it's lasted since that year. When the houselights came up, he came out to the edge of the stage for a goodbye. My girlfriend and I put our hands around our mouths and yelled, "We love you, Bob!" as loud as we could. He looked over at us with an expression of, "Who the F* would do something like that?" Edited March 29, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) Speaking of Scorcese, I figure Rolling Thunder Revue was a direct reference to LBJ's Operation Rolling Thunder by Dylan. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=rolling+thunder+revue&docid=608029040670084704&mid=4C8C13247ED12BEE2B4B4C8C13247ED12BEE2B4B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE Edited March 29, 2020 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: David Talbot was screaming about this today Mike. Most of the MSM seems to be deliberately misrepresenting what the song is about. They just will not go there. This is what you get googling the title. Two of the four articles show some acknowledgement of the bigger picture, the other two seem somewhat lacking. The point is I had to look for this in spite of the number of views of the song. You don't find anything about it just looking about on msnbc or I'd guess fox news. Should a Sunday article exploring it's meaning be expected in the NYT tomorrow? https://www.bing.com/search?q=murder+most+foul&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&rec_search=1&refig=723904d69a434681be07dfb8bb1aefa5&sp=2&qs=FT&pq=murder&sk=PRES1FT1&sc=8-6&cvid=723904d69a434681be07dfb8bb1aefa5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 I saw an article about what celebrities have done during the coronavirus shutdown, that listed Dylan's release of the song as one of the best things anyone has done. So some within the MSM are noticing. The underlying theme of the song is that the assassination is central to both our history and our culture, to such an extent even that the Star-Spangled Banner (our national anthem) should be re-named the Blood-Stained Banner. It's hard to argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) Jack says: "It's a great tune. I'm glad you can all hear it on your YooHooTube or the internets or whatever you have now. In the car, though, I'm, ah, still a Little Richard man, myself. 'Keep a-knockin' but you can't come in' -- just love that one." Edited March 30, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) One of the many surprises to come to me when I was a buyer in the record industry was when a children's record came out featuring Bob Dylan singing "This Old Man." I used to sneak it onto mix tapes to blow people's minds. In any event, I suspect this song is a key to understanding "Murder Most Foul." Well, how, do you ask? The last part of "Murder Most Foul" has Dylan saying "Play this," and "Play that"--with the thisses and thats not all being songs." At one point, he even says "Play six." This ties into the old children's song, in which an old man plays numbers. In this context, then, Dylan takes over from the DJ who is playing the songs on JFK's radio and becomes an "old man" playing songs and images in his own head, while he tries to make sense of American history. He concludes by adding his own song--the song-he's singing/reciting,--onto his "playlist." Note also that the old man in "This Old Man" goes "rolling home", which ties into Dylan's masterwork "Bringin' It Alll Back Home." "Murder Most Foul" is Dylan's ultimate conclusion about the land of his birth, and it may very well be his final song, period. (Thanks, Bob!) This old man, he played one He played knick-knack on my drum With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played two He played knick-knack on my shoe With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played three He played knick-knack on my knee With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played four He played knick-knack on my door With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played five He played knick-knack on my hive With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played six He played knick-knack on my sticks With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played seven He played knick-knack up to heaven With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played eight He played knick-knack on my plate With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played nine He played knick-knack on my spine With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played ten He played knick-knack now an' then With a knick-knack paddywhack Give your dog a bone This old man came rolling home Edited March 29, 2020 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) I suspect Murder Most Foul is from the sessions that produced Dylan's last album of original songs, Tempest (2012). The song lyric references and execution ballad influences of that album's eulogy for John Lennon, "Roll On, John," fit the pattern. ("They’ll trap you in an ambush ‘fore you know/Too late now to sail back home.") Of course, it's "They" who are after Lennon throughout the song. "Roll On, John" is also the name of a traditional folk song Dylan performed in the early 1960s. Sony Records is keeping the 2012 "Roll On, John" off of YouTube with the rest of Tempest, so you'll have to judge from this 2013 live performance and from the lyrics: Roll on John Doctor, doctor, tell me the time of day Another bottle’s empty, another penny spent He turned around and he slowly walked away They shot him in the back and down he went Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John From the Liverpool docks to the red light Hamburg streets Down in the quarry with the Quarrymen Playing to the big crowds, playing to the cheap seats Another day in the life on your way to your journey’s end Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Sailing through the trade winds bound for the South Rags on your back just like any other slave They tied your hands and they clamped your mouth Wasn’t no way out of that deep, dark cave Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John I heard the news today, oh boy They hauled your ship up on the shore Now the city gone dark, there is no more joy They tore the heart right out and cut it to the core Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Put down your bags and get ‘em packed Leave right now, you won’t be far from wrong The sooner you go, the quicker you’ll be back You been cooped up on an island far too long Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Slow down, you’re moving way too fast Come together right now over me Your bones are weary, you’re about to breathe your last Lord, you know how hard that it can be Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Roll on John, roll through the rain and snow Take the right hand road and go where the buffalo roam They’ll trap you in an ambush ‘fore you know Too late now to sail back home Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Tyger, tyger, burning bright I pray the Lord my soul to keep In the forest of the night Cover him over, and let him sleep Shine your light Move it on You burned so bright Roll on, John Copyright © 2012 by Special Rider Music Edited March 29, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Kossor Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Nice to see Dylan's reference to the mutilation of JFK's body and the removal of his brain described as a fact rather than "Lifton's theory." The truth will out, if we keep looking for it, but the confirmation bias keeps clouding the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 A lot of Dylan topics but this is the one that's hot right now. I remember seeing this interview on the local PBS station in San Francisco, though I think it was a couple of years after it happened. When I saw it again more recently, I flashed back on a few local San Francisco media personalities who were there on the scene. And around 46:00, an aspiring rock promoter who invited him to go to a local gig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 7:46 PM, David Andrews said: His coffee-house days in New York were limited, and soon became legend rather than residency. Dylan, and his handlers (John Hammond, Albert Grossman), had larger exposure and a national audience in mind. He spent more time in the 1960s living in the Village than playing there. I don't criticize; he was loved in New York for "making good" in the Folk movement, and also held in some jealousy for his output and growing influence, not to mention the song publishing monies that Albert Grossman had seen in him. But the audience that felt betrayed when he plugged in and moved away from music based on traditional song was by that time worldwide. Among New York folkie types -- Pete Seeger at the Newport Folk Festival, for instance -- the electric guitar thing was the formal announcement of a severing of ties that had been strained for some time. Yes, I agree. Just surprising, as my roommate and I saved up to go to the coffee houses in the Village and we saw some great people -- Mort Sahl, Dick Gregory, and a number of others. I really wish I had seen Dylan back then too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 8:28 PM, W. Niederhut said: David, Have you seen Martin Scorcese's documentary, No Direction Home, about Dylan and Greenwich Village in the early 60s? I thought it was spell-binding all three or four times I watched it. That was before my time, but I've been a folk (and rock) musician since the early 70s, and erstwhile Dylan impersonator, and I played music with some folk musicians from New York and New England in college. (Mary Chapin Carpenter was a student at Brown in those days.) Meanwhile, the Talking Heads had been in school down the Hill at RISD before moving to Manhattan and recording Psycho Killer in '77. The New England "counterculture" folk scene went the way of the dodo. I agree that No Direction Home is amazing. But, for me, it dug up so many memories that I had not really processed from those years that I have had to set it aside for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Brown Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Not entirely OT -- A poem that I published earlier this month about the JFK assassination -- there is a Dylan reference too... Days of Red Roses by Pamela Brown The pompous teacher fills the classroom full of fire shots ring out as bunsen burners take light like Parkland, but was it only in her mind? flames reduce, the class is quiet measurements are taken for the experiment. “Only you and I would remember that there was World War II,” the teacher said. She did not know what to do. She had been trapped in that same room two years ago while a massacre raged in another state. Shots ring out at noon, the limo drags along. “Get down!” People all around standing waving as he crumples by her side, red roses, thorns and leaves between them. Sun heavy with heat There will be more. Get out! He watches her walk her little son to St. David’s School from his room on the second floor where he is incarcerated by his parents, on methadone. Not far away, she watches the Zapruder at the St. Charles Theatre one showing only, shut down the next day a secret none would even whisper about again except for her… the navy limo, golden cufflink, that smile first seen in Philadelphia two years before. the blood, white flesh flying backward, life to death in one moment… He always gave her roses on that day “They’ll die,” she said. Their roots are cut away. Besides, I don’t like red roses.” That didn’t matter, he would say. They married on that day, two years later the minstrel and his Egyptian queen, to stop the tumult in the vortex to return what was to what had once been But that all came apart and in a public feud She held her grace, but he was in a vile mood over the money he had lost and how his name was dragged through the mud. All that was secret was coming out and all because of her… She left the classroom and the school that day breathing relief seeing the flag waving cheerfully at full staff, its scarlet stripes offset by blue and white no red roses today, she said not today… https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/03/13/days-of-red-roses/ Advertisements Occasionally, some of your visitors may see an advertisement here, as well as a Privacy & Cookies banner at the bottom of the page. You can hide ads completely by upgrading to one of our paid plans. UPGRADE NOW DISMISS MESSAGE Share this: Press This Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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