DiEugenio, Cranor, and the mole (my mole) - 3/31/20

[Adam Johnson]

Dear Mr.Lifton,

Did Professor Liebeler ever reveal to you his thoughts on what he believed really happend on Nov 22nd 1963 after his work for the Warren Commission?

 

P.S Sorry for the loss of your friend W.L in the plane crash.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Adam Johnson

[David Boylan]

4 hours ago, David Andrews said:

See Larry, above.

There's also the unsubstantiated rumor of a sniper at the Trade Mart.

That would be Col William Bishop at the Trade Mart. Or so he said.

[David Andrews]

4 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:

As a retired Homicide Sgt with the Detroit Police Dept who as assigned to Homicide twice with a tour at Detroit SWAT in between I've watched any number of intellectually silly or unsubstantiated "Facts". I learned quickly at Homicide if you did not look critically at what you thought you knew you would quickly end up with an unsolved Homicide. I've satisfied myself that I'm sure of what happened. Since I'm not selling things or trying to create "Evan's Marshals" I look with severe disappointment when we focus on throwing mud at each other.

Just kidding.

[Ron Bulman]

25 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

That would be Col William Bishop at the Trade Mart. Or so he said.

Darn that name sounds familiar but I can't place him.  But again, a Col himself as a sniper at the trade mart?

[Larry Hancock]

David,  take a look at the photos at the link below....in one image I think you can actually see people sitting or standing in the bed of a pick up, in others the cars have their wheels cut at an angle showing they backed off on the side of the road.

The police had closed Stemmons with a motorcycle unit down the freeway but folks who had gone down it earlier had the opportunity to just go down and pull off to the side to park and wait for the motorcade pass...no other traffic was coming behind them.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jfk+limo+on+stemmons+freeway+in+dallas+photo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=cv1u6MeFaZKzAM%3A%2C5zSO4MdYFI-7AM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kThDovZWU43oN0PoA3JgFCIyvD20A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiA4f3toMvoAhUMRqwKHV4sAaYQ9QEwA3oECAoQHQ#imgrc=cv1u6MeFaZKzAM:

 

[David Andrews]

5 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Darn that name sounds familiar but I can't place him.  But again, a Col himself as a sniper at the trade mart?

He's interviewed by Dick Russell in the Richard Case Nagell book, The Man Who Knew Much.   I think that's the only place he's interviewed.  If there's more Bishop on record, I'd like to know.

[David Andrews]

13 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

David,  take a look at the photos at the link below....in one image I think you can actually see people sitting or standing in the bed of a pick up, in others the cars have their wheels cut at an angle showing they backed off on the side of the road.

The police had closed Stemmons with a motorcycle unit down the freeway but folks who had gone down it earlier had the opportunity to just go down and pull off to the side to park and wait for the motorcade pass...no other traffic was coming behind them.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jfk+limo+on+stemmons+freeway+in+dallas+photo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=cv1u6MeFaZKzAM%3A%2C5zSO4MdYFI-7AM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kThDovZWU43oN0PoA3JgFCIyvD20A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiA4f3toMvoAhUMRqwKHV4sAaYQ9QEwA3oECAoQHQ#imgrc=cv1u6MeFaZKzAM:

 

Thank you Larry.  I've seen that one photo, as that's where the assault rifle is muzzle-up in the Queen.  Good eye for detail on the backed-in front wheels.  When Hargraves specified "just past the underpass" (paraphrase), I thought he meant before the on-ramp.

Here's one where Greer is much closer to parked cars.  Is that in the Hargraves ballpark?

Edited April 3, 2020 by David Andrews

[Larry Hancock]

It would be pure speculation, he really only says he made a car bomb that did not have to be used....one other possibility is that it was in that pickup truck that was "stalled" right before the overpass and towed away only minutes before the motorcade arrived on Elm.  It certainly had the attention of the officers assigned to the overpass, perhaps the pickup was pure circumstance - in any event it served as a major diversion during the hour or so before the motorcade arrived. .

Edited April 3, 2020 by Larry Hancock

[David G. Healy]

David Lifton -- You STILL command the stage! And I detect a hell of a lot of envy... KUTGW!

Edited April 3, 2020 by David G. Healy

[David Lifton]

3 hours ago, David G. Healy said:

David Lifton -- You STILL command the stage! And I detect a hell of a lot of envy... KUTGW!

To David Healey: Thanks.  But you sure contributed in those "early" conferences.  Unfortunately, too  many of the "early" researchers could not cross the Rubicon, and enter the world of optical printers.  That's like trying to solve a gunshot homicide without understanding the basics how a firearm works (!). But you sure understood all of that.  Civilian film alteration was fundamental to the manipulation of the media in the case of the Kennedy assassination. Stay safe. DSL

 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by David Lifton

[David Lifton]

Your question: "Dear Mr.Lifton,. . . Did Professor Liebeler ever reveal to you his thoughts on what he believed really happened on Nov 22nd 1963 after his work for the Warren Commission?"

Reply: short answer, "No."   As described in B.E. (see Ch. 9, of B.E.), WJL was very excited by my discovery of the body alteration evidence. . .remember what he said to me (when he first saw the blowup photos of the Moorman Polaroid;  Spring 1965.  See Ch. 1 of B.E., where he made that remark about Lyndon Johnson.)  All of that was Spring 1965  . but then came October 1966, and my discovery of the statement in the Sibert/O'Neill FBI report that --at the time of the Bethesda autopsy-- there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."  That's  when Prof. Liebeler  wrote the memo he did  (mid Nov., 1966, see Chapter 9 of B.E.) All of that persisted through the time he sent out the Liebeler Memo in mid-November, 1966.-- a memo that went to every member of the WC and its legal staff, plus Attorney General RFK. A change  in Liebeler's attitude occurred when his memo was rejected by General Counsel J Lee Rankin (12/1/66).  Also note: The focus was never on LBJ as an individual, but rather on my discovery of body alteration as the M.O. --the M.O. that was at the heart of a disguise to operate the presidential line of succession of the U.S. Government (which is exactly what happened on 11/22/63).

Edited April 3, 2020 by David Lifton

[Adam Johnson]

Thank you for the reply, i have read Best Evidence a couple of times several years apart. The closeness of your relationship with Prof. Leibeler and his encouragement of your early investigations intrigued me. With the new information you discovered from your interviews as you progressed it seemed to me from reading your book, that in his mind he always thought someday someone would come along to tear down the warren report and bring light to its many failings. I think he may of taken some pride from the fact that you were the one to get the bolder rolling in 1965/66.

What did surprise me was why he took part as special counsel and agreed to conduct hearings of witness and experts, but in those interviews he chose to lead witnesees or failed to ask obvious questions that could reveal many truths about what happened on the 22nd of November. His career didnt seem to blossom as a result of taking part in the W.C. He clearly was one of the few involved that tried unsuccessfully years later to get the report re-investigated.

Did you ever ask him why he stayed on board the creation of a presidential report, he must of discovered was clearly being guided to one finding and one finding only?

Thank you again for your earlier reply.

[David Lifton]

On 4/3/2020 at 5:23 AM, Adam Johnson said:

Thank you for the reply, i have read Best Evidence a couple of times several years apart. The closeness of your relationship with Prof. Liebeler and his encouragement of your early investigations intrigued me. With the new information you discovered from your interviews as you progressed it seemed to me from reading your book, that in his mind he always thought someday someone would come along to tear down the warren report and bring light to its many failings. I think he may of taken some pride from the fact that you were the one to get the bolder rolling in 1965/66.

What did surprise me was why he took part as special counsel and agreed to conduct hearings of witness and experts, but in those interviews he chose to lead witnesses or failed to ask obvious questions that could reveal many truths about what happened on the 22nd of November. His career didn't seem to blossom as a result of taking part in the W.C. He clearly was one of the few involved that tried unsuccessfully years later to get the report re-investigated.

Did you ever ask him why he stayed on board the creation of a presidential report, he must of discovered was clearly being guided to one finding and one finding only?

Thank you again for your earlier reply.

Re: "Thank you for the reply, i have read Best Evidence a couple of times several years apart. The closeness of your relationship with Prof. Leibeler and his encouragement of your early investigations intrigued me. With the new information you discovered from your interviews as you progressed it seemed to me from reading your book, that in his mind he always thought someday someone would come along to tear down the warren report and bring light to its many failings. I think he may of taken some pride from the fact that you were the one to get the bolder rolling in 1965/66."

My response: "Yes and no." Without question, Prof. Liebeler took seriously my discovery that the Sibert and O'Neill FBI report stated that, prior to autopsy, there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull." The fact that he would feature my discovery in his memorandum that went out to all seven members of the Warren Commission, plus the entire staff, with--in addition-- a copy to Attorney General Robert Kennedy speaks for itself.  Furthermore, in a prior draft of the memo, he actually included the entire matter of the back-to-front "parasagittal laceration" (through the brain) which I had discovered and brought to his attention in that same (initial meeting) on 10/24/66. Remember: on that day,  he called up a neurosurgeon and--without telling him who was the victim--read to him that description, and asked him what was the cause of death, to which the neurosurgeon responded: "Sounds like he was hit with an axe!" -- (to which Liebeler then responded, to me, when he hung up the phone, "I guess we'll have to get the FBI to jimmy up some evidence that Oswald ordered an axe!"

I think Prof. Liebeler knew the Report was seriously flawed--but, prior to the time I met him, I think he what struck him the most was (a) the Odio incident and (b) LHO's trip to Mexico City.  But Liebeler had a very curious mind; and, at some point, his focus shifted to the autopsy. Certainly, that had occurred by October 1966, a few weeks after the fall term began at UCLA.  FWIW: I don't believe he ever subscribed to the proposition that Commander Humes (the autopsy surgeon) would outright lie. Because Liebeler understood the implications of that, in terms of Humes' future career.  But when I showed him the demonstrable evidence that the body had been altered, and I demonstrated that Humes could "tell the truth" (in a fashion, without making explicit that the body was a medical forgery), there's no question that that marked a major turning point.  See B.E., Ch. 8, I think, where Liebeler went into a private office and called Arlen Specter, to relate to him my discovery. When he returned, and I asked, "What did he say?". . . Liebeler responded (as I wrote in B.E.): "Specter hopes he gets through this with his balls intact."

As to his personal beliefs, I cannot say. . and keep in mind that there was a period of over a decade where I left Southern California, returned to the family home (in Rockaway Beach, New York, "aka" Belle Harbor, Long Island); and while there-- under Peter Shepherd's guidance--wrote Best Evidence.  My parents initially expected my stay there would be a few weeks, perhaps a month or two; but then my stay there kept getting longer and longer.  Also, during that period, my father had a near-fatal heart attack.  The book was published in January  1981, both my parents were well enough to attend the major press conference my publisher (Macmillan) held in Washington, D.C., as well as a social event that evening. Now back to Professor Liebeler: when I was in Los Angeles on my book tour, and --unannounced, and accompanied by Pat Valentino --went up to his office at UCLA, he was most surprised.  I don't remember that he wrote any comprehensive rebuttal to B.E., but --rest assured--he never endorsed it. That's important to keep in mind.  It seemed to me that Prof. Liebeler always walked that "in-between" line.  Now, having said that, I can also assure you that had his memo resulted in a re-opening of the JFK investigation, he would have taken considerable pride in that.  And yet, when the House Select Committee on Assassinations  (HSCA) conducted its investigation (1976 - 1979), I don't believe Liebeler ever told them about his memo, or any concerns he had about the autopsy, and so he would have first learned about the extent of my (completed) work when the book (Best Evidence)  was actually published (Jan. 1981). 

I really don't know the answers to the rest of your questions.  Liebeler was a very complicated guy.  And I personally believe that he saw his future as someone who would become important in anti-trust law, and not as someone who would take part in solving the Kennedy assassination.  In view of the (Nov 1966) memo he wrote about the autopsy, that may be hard to believe, but . . I think that's close to the truth. 

As you know, he died in an airplane crash in September,  2002,  so we can only speculate about what "might have happened" if he lived another decade (or more). 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by David Lifton

[Paul Brancato]

Mr. Lifton,

it appears you are up early, as am I. I’d like to read what you have been working on more recently. When will your current book hit the shelves?

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Mr. Lifton,

it appears you are up early, as am I. I’d like to read what you have been working on more recently. When will your current book hit the shelves?

I would also like to hear Mr. Lifton's answer to my question on Page 1 of this thread.

Does he really believe that Allen Dulles and J. Edgar Hoover did not conspire to alter and withhold evidence from the Warren Commission?

I find that hard to believe.