DiEugenio, Cranor, and the mole (my mole) - 3/31/20

[David Andrews]

27 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The plan is for all the shooters -- from behind -- to shoot simultaneously... thus the "flurry of shots."

 

I don't disagree with you about a radio-coordinated effort to have several shooters firing at once at given signals - hence the painted curb markings.  I recall, however, that Kellerman specified that "a flurry of shots entered the limo" (close paraphrase) at or near the head wound at Z-313, and just before Greer gunned the engine.  So there's the possibility that the earlier shots were more surgically placed and not in a volley.  One would think that the closer the car is to the crowds at the Houston-Elm intersection, the more likely that witnesses are going to report volleys, or possibly be hit by missed shots.  Down past the Stemmons sign where the crowd is straggled seems like a better free-fire zone.

Edited April 6, 2020 by David Andrews

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/6/2020 at 9:44 AM, David Andrews said:

I don't disagree with you about a radio-coordinated effort to have several shooters firing at once at given signals - hence the painted curb markings.  I recall, however, that Kellerman specified that "a flurry of shots entered the limo" (close paraphrase) at or near the head wound at Z-313, and just before Greer gunned the engine.  So there's the possibility that the earlier shots were more surgically placed and not in a volley.  One would think that the closer the car is to the crowds at the Houston-Elm intersection, the more likely that witnesses are going to report volleys, or possibly be hit by missed shots.  Down past the Stemmons sign where the crowd is straggled seems like a better free-fire zone.

 

I wasn't aware of Kellerman being the source of the phrase "flurry of shots," nor that it occurred around the time of z313. So thanks for posting that info. I agree that it makes more sense for the "flurry of shots" to occur later, for the reasons you give, and as a last ditch effort to make sure Kennedy was dead. So I revise my theory accordingly... a few precision shots first followed by a flurry of shots about three seconds later.

(BTW, I call it "my theory" only because I'm not speaking for anybody but myself. I know, of course, that a lot of other people have come to approximately this same conclusion, and that Lifton gets credit for the heart of the theory.)

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said:

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

one can not rule out that a shot from the front was part of an emergency plan--that only became necessary when the first shot failed to kill Kennedy.

Does it likely then follow that DCM and UM in their positions to observe were signaling with their gestures (raised hand, pumping open umbrella) that the emergency plan was needed?

 

That's what I've thought for quite some time. I've never bought that UM was doing some sort of protest thing.

Has anybody determined at what Zapruder frame UM twirled his umbrella?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Sandy, we have not been in touch for many years, and my position has evolved.  Although there's no question in my mind that President Kenned's wounds were altered (which explains the autopsy report and testimony, upon which the Warren Commission, as well as the Bethesda accounts of those who knew that the cranium was empty), I long ago realized the likelihood that some of the autopsy photos were altered, which would explain the "back of the head photos"; and the same may well be the case with the X-rays.  also note: If the photos and X-rays were altered, that was certainly done by the time the autopsy doctors were called to the National Archives to examine these materials in January 1967.

 

Thanks for clarifying your position on photo fakery, David. I apologize for mischaracterizing it. I'm glad to see we're on the same page with that.

 

[Ron Ecker]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Has anybody determined at what Zapruder frame UM twirled his umbrella?

 

At Z225 the umbrella is high and DCM's hand is raised right after JFK has been shot in the throat and emerges from behind the freeway sign. DCM is clearly in view by Z228, and the umbrella's still high. (UM was standing a bit further back from the street than DCM.)

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Has anybody determined at what Zapruder frame UM twirled his umbrella?

At Z225 the umbrella is high and DCM's hand is raised right after JFK has been shot in the throat and emerges from behind the freeway sign. DCM is clearly in view by Z228, and the umbrella's still high. (UM was standing a bit further back from the street than DCM.)

 

Thanks Ron. I didn't realize that you can see the two men briefly in the Z film.

Looking at the film frame-by-frame in Costella's collection (here) you can barely make out that the umbrella is open as early as  Z-206. (It is hidden by the Stemmons sign before that.) DCM raises his hand at Z-225 / Z-226.

So raising of the hand and umbrella seem to be unconnected to the Z-313 shot. I wonder if it was the lowering of one of those that was used to signal that shot.

BTW Ron, your never-ending supply of one-liners are very much appreciated. Keep 'em coming. 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Ron Ecker]

To the tune of Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man":

Hey Mr. Dark-Complected Man, you with your hand
High in the air, a signal for another shot?
Hey Mr. Dark-Complected Man, who is the man
With the umbrella raised up in this murderous plot?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Ron Ecker

[Ron Bulman]

Best Evidence was revolutionary for it's time.  I didn't read it until sometime after the movie JFK came out.  Between it, the movie, Jim Marrs and a couple of others I began to doubt the mafia did it hocus pocus.  I questioned the medical evidence for the first time, I'd never heard of Jenkins or O'Connor.  It remains on my top shelf for reference.

Things have progressed since then.  William Law has fleshed out the stories of Jenkins, O'Connor and several others present.  Doug Horne of the ARRB has fleshed out much more.  So has Dr. David Mantik.  And maybe most of all Dr. Michael Chesser.  I've read none of these men extensively but all enough to learn much more from experienced, competent, respected, professionals.

Neurologist Dr. Chesser in particular, who has examined the rays and photographs in the National Archives, in his recent articles in Garrison magazine has presented a compelling case.  For a shot from the front in the hairline over the right eye as well as another in the right temple above the right ear and slightly.  Wish I could link the articles but that would be up to S.T..

Jim has kept up with all of this regarding the ongoing progress of the medical evidence.  I have to wonder if David has read much of it or kept up with this progress since his book was written or he's resting on his laurels.  I don't know the full details of their disagreement over the years.  But to accuse Jim of in essence of plagiarism, using a ghost writer, based on a thus far fictional "mole", is ridiculous.  Beyond the pale Imho.

https://www.amazon.com/Eye-History-Disclosures-Assassination-Evidence/dp/0965658287

 https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Assassination-Records-Review-Board/dp/0984314407

http://themantikview.com/

https://kennedysandking.com/news-items/a-review-of-the-jfk-cranial-x-rays-and-photographs-by-dr-michael-chesser

 

 

  

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

So raising of the hand and umbrella seem to be unconnected to the Z-313 shot. I wonder if it was the lowering of one of those that was used to signal that shot.

Sandy,

If the shooters had spotters who may, or may not have been in radio contact via walkie talkies, there would be no need for umbrellas or anything else.

Over and above that, any umbrella man or dark complected man would be out of view to any sniper looking through a scope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU69lMs2FMg

Steve Thomas

[Ron Ecker]

39 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

If the shooters had spotters who may, or may not have been in radio contact via walkie talkies, there would be no need for umbrellas or anything else.

Over and above that, any umbrella man or dark complected man would be out of view to any sniper looking through a scope.

 

Could DCM and UM perhaps be signaling to the spotters, not the snipers? They were much closer to the target than the spotters.  

[David Andrews]

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

If the shooters had spotters who may, or may not have been in radio contact via walkie talkies, there would be no need for umbrellas or anything else.

Over and above that, any umbrella man or dark complected man would be out of view to any sniper looking through a scope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU69lMs2FMg

Steve Thomas

I would think the DCM and the UM would be on-the-ground observers for the spotters, who could only see JFK from behind and at a distance, through binoculars.  They would be "last chance" observers who would signal whether JFK had suffered a visibly fatal head or body wound at the point where the limo was on the verge of exiting the kill zone.  In other words: blood witnesses.  Getting a visual opinion from them would mean that the spotters and shooters wouldn't have to waste valuable seconds examining the target through binoculars or a rifle scopes. 

The spotters might have been separate from the snipers and their radiomen, so four levels of communication: DCM and UM at last resort > remote spotters in command > radiomen behind snipers > snipers.  DCM stepping out and raising his fist, and UM pumping his umbrella, cut out the need for verbal communication.  DCM is the only person on Elm who stepped out in the street - he may have gotten excited at the potential for missed opportunity, and hoped to slow down the limo further..

Edited April 7, 2020 by David Andrews

[Ken Martinson]

Rather than spotters/snipers using radios to communicate, the "full car stop" may have been a signal to shoot.

The double head shot was within 0.1 seconds, this may have been a fluke, or more likely timed for when the car came to a complete stop for 0.5 seconds or so. Some Z-film frames may also be missing so that the double head shot actually had a window of 0.3 seconds.

 

 

[Ken Martinson]

How many shots are we really talking about? 5 that hit JFK (3 head, neck, back), 1 for Connally, 1 for James Tague, 1 grass shot. That makes 8.

[Cliff Varnell]

"They mutilated his body--" Bob Dylan, Murder Most Foul.

JFK had a wound of entrance in the soft tissue between his Third Thoracic Vertebra and the Upper Margin of the Scapula.

Dylan buys the scenario developed by David Lifton that the T3 wound was created post-mortem.

With JFK in front of them, the autopsists speculated he was hit with a high tech round undetectable on x-ray or in the body.

The number of students of the JFKA who associate that scenario frivolously with a Dick Tracy cartoon far outweigh the students who seriously associate the scenario with the CIA's MKNAOMI, which used blood soluble paralytics and toxins and had the FBI primed to finger the Russians for it's use in the field.

The JFKA Master Class can't buy either scenario so they either deny the T3 back wound outright, or pretend the T3 evidence doesn't exist.

I'm on the opposite side of the street from Lifton and Dylan on this issue -- but at least we''re on the same street!

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Cliff Varnell

[Chris Bristow]

On 4/6/2020 at 8:19 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That seems reasonable to me, Chris. I'd like to elaborate on your theory here and hopefully show Matt Allison et. al. that something like what David Lifton describes is conceivable:

The plan is for all the shooters -- from behind -- to shoot simultaneously... thus the "flurry of shots." An observer has been assigned to confirm that at least one shot hits the head squarely. None do and he gives the negative signal. A couple seconds later a contingency shot is taken from the front. This creates a head wound from the front, and so it requires the second part of the contingency plan to take place... removal of evidence of this shot.

The body is snatched and the hole in the back of the head is observed. A surgeon (or just a guy with tools) lacerates the scalp and breaks the top of the cranium open with a chisel and hammer. What's left of the brain is quickly removed and replaced with a brain that has damage to it and bullet fragments consistent with shots from behind. (This brain had been prepared beforehand as part of the contingency plan.) Scalp fragments are put back in place and the scalp is stitched here and there to hold the head together.

This isn't done as an attempt to fool the autopsists... it is done to allow the autopsists to follow orders and toe the official line without having to flat out lie.

When Humes sees the stitches he immediately knows that some official hanky panky has been going on with the body. He briefly notes the surgery, but then moves on to write an autopsy report that describes what he is supposed to be seeing.

 

I never knew that Humes found stitches. I had assumed he just found scalpel marks. The idea of a signalman in the plaza makes much more sense if you consider a shot from the front as a last resort. From Jarrell Custer reports and Paul Connors it sounds like the brain may not have been replaced into the skull. Both of them say there was only a tiny amount of brains left in the cranium. If that is true the brain was introduced into the autopsy at some other point.