The CIA and the Book Depository

[Joseph McBride]

Anna Chennault, the widow of Major General Claire Chennault, conspired with Nixon to commit

treason in 1968 so he could win the election by secretly

dealing with North Vietnam to stall the peace process.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Joseph McBride

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The different spellings of Chennault started in 1895 - but it is all one family. And Claire Chennault attended at least one of the family reunions which included family members from both spellings. William and the General WERE indeed COUSINS - just as the news articles stated.
 

The Chenaults may indeed be cousins with the Chennaults, but to find and prove that in US Census records you will need to go back further then 1895.  And, at least the 1850 Census in the Chenault and Chennault families. 

Census Records are considered one of the standards of genealogy research.  Generally, Census records are considered to reliable and true unless falsified by other Census records contradicting earlier ones, or other records such as birth, death, marriage, and Social Security records which build a case contradicting evidence found in Census records. 

Earlier the lineage of Mildred Chenault was listed to the 4th generation to her great-grandfather Robert T. Chenault: born abt 1830 – died  before 1870 census. 

The Chenault family spelled their family name that way as early as about 1830 with Robert T.'s birth.  If you look at the listed genealogy records of 4 generations of Chenaults and Chennaults there are no family connections up to the 1850 Census.  Things become murkier in the 1840 and earlier census due to not listing children.

Claire "Flying Tiger" Chennault may have believed he was related to William Chenault just as William believed.  But, at this point neither could prove that to a genealogist by evidence from 4 generations in the US Census.  You would have to look past 1830 with Robert Chenault or provide other evidence. 

Other evidence would need to be presented.  This is mentioned earlier by others, but I see no evidence supporting the contentions that they were cousins other than family statements and newspaper articles.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by John Butler

[James DiEugenio]

I think the fact that both spellings attended the family reunion in Dallas is kind of important.

[David Andrews]

See Alfred McCoy, The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia, for the role of Chennault's air corps in moving opium to support the Chiang Kai-shek regime against the Maoists.  Anna Chennault had a family connection to Madame Chiang, as this article mentions:

0095399715581042.pdf

[John Butler]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think the fact that both spellings attended the family reunion in Dallas is kind of important.

I don't disagree with that.  The Chenault and Chennault family may very well be related.  They may believe that this is so based on something we don't know at this point.  And, it could be if some evidence such as a family bible, family letters,  birth records, death records, or other records are looked at.

As it stands there is no basis for a 1st cousin or 2nd cousin relationship.

This is a common problem in genealogy.  I have it in my own family.  I was always told as a youngster that a group of Butlers that lived in the western part of the county I grew up in were not related to my group.  However, during research in my family history from 1985 to 1999 I found enough evidence to suggest a relationship, but not enough to openly say it.  So, we remain unrelated. 

Many families want to contain things they don't want known.  So, families split and one claims they are not related to the other.  That gets passed down through the generations.

In the case of the Chenaults and Chennaults there may be something like that (just speculating) that cause the generations in each family to know that there was a family relationship between the two families. 

Claire Chennault thought it may be so that they were related and he attended that family reunion.  If they believe there was a relationship then its enough to say there was a relationship there that they believed to be true.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:41 PM, Ron Bulman said:

This part caught my attention in particular.

Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Vice-president Ochus Campbell, told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published—that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”[9]

She was still terrified 30 years later.  VP Ochus Campbell was Truly's boss.  He told a reporter from the NY Herald (?) he saw Oswald in the supply closet door beneath the the stairs by the front entrance as they came back in.  Campbell worked for building owner Harold Dry Hole Byrd.  Member of the Dallas Petroleum Club, friends there with among others George De Mohrenschildt, George H W Bush, Clint Murchison...  Who also established the Civil Air Patrol that recruited David Ferrie and LHO, received an award for doing so from General Curtis LeMay.  Of course he was acquainted with Mayor Earle Cabell, a CIA asset.  And his brother CIA third in command of it Airforce General Charles Cabell, fired by JFK over the Bay Of Pigs.

Carolyn Arnold stated she saw "Oswald between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the First Floor".  As She Was standing in front of the building, shortly before the parade passed.  

30 years later she still thought the TSBD was a safe place to operate from on 11/22/63? For Who?  No wonder she was still terrified.

What did Carolyn Arnold mean by "a safe base to operate from that day in November 1963"?    It was protected  by the owner, managers, DPD, CIA?

[Ron Bulman]

Going back to Shelley...  I know I've read this before but forgot it I guess.  I came across it a couple of weeks ago in Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After The Fact, laid another book on top of it and forgot about it.  On page 73, from Shelley's affidavit on 11/22/63 (CE 2003, p. 59).

"I heard what sounded like three shots. . . I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. . . I Went Back To the Building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened.  I was on the first floor and I stayed at the elevator. . ."

Nothing about the rail road yard or side door like he told the Warren Omission.  If he ran across the street to the crying girl then went back in the front door he was not to the elevator about a minute after the assassination when Vicki Adams came down.

He changed his story to fit what was needed, at the behest of someone else.  Kind of like Vicki had her testimony changed to say she had seen Shelley when she came off the stairs on the first floor per Barry Ernst's interview of her in the 90's.

[Anthony Mugan]

Hi all

 

Thanks for a really interesting discussion. Would I be correct therefore in thinking that Truly had three sets of connections to persons or groups of interest?

i. His employer, D H Byrd, was connected into the Suite 8F group, members of which were involved in funding some of the anti-Castro groups and with connections to Pawley etc.

ii. He was related by marriage to Fred Korth, a close ally of LBJ and also well connected into local business groups.

iii. The Chenaults believed they were related to the Chennaults, with a possible (if somewhat tenuous) connection to the China lobby, even if they actually were not close blood relatives.

 

It also seems reasonable to conclude that both Truly and Shelley changed their testimony between their immediate statements and their subsequent testimony to the Warren Commission in ways helpful to the lone nut hypothesis.

It also seems reasonable to note that Truly hired LHO and Shelley directly managed the work on the flooring of the 6th floor, creating the various stacks of boxes that created the 'snipers nest', under the line management of Truly.

The interest for me is mainly at the moment around the practical logistics of the sniper(s) operating in Dallas that day. It seems unavoidable to conclude that they had to have a reasonable anticipation of being able to access the TSBD, have suitable location(s) to shoot from with a reasonable chance of remaining undisturbed and then being able to get out. That does seem to suggest that they had one or more people inside the TSBD supporting the operation (reconnaisance, preparing the location, bringing in weapons beforehand, supporting the escape route etc.). In principle that could have been LHO himself, but on balance I think he was unwitting in terms of the full extent of what was going on and therefore requires one or more other individuals in a position to assist. Truly and Shelley, given their roles and actual actions, must be prime suspects.

Does the above seem reasonable?

As a follow on, could I ask for thought on what is the shortest and simplest connection path back to the core group of suspects in the DRE / AMWORLD/ JMWAVE (etc) millieu? Is that through Byrd and 8F and then to Pawley or are there other more direct connections?

 

Cheers

Anthony

[Joseph McBride]

Byrd, as many here know, also helped found the Civil Air Patrol, which included among its members Lee Oswald and David Ferrie.

[Ron Bulman]

17 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

Hi all

 

Thanks for a really interesting discussion. Would I be correct therefore in thinking that Truly had three sets of connections to persons or groups of interest?

i. His employer, D H Byrd, was connected into the Suite 8F group, members of which were involved in funding some of the anti-Castro groups and with connections to Pawley etc.

ii. He was related by marriage to Fred Korth, a close ally of LBJ and also well connected into local business groups.

iii. The Chenaults believed they were related to the Chennaults, with a possible (if somewhat tenuous) connection to the China lobby, even if they actually were not close blood relatives.

 

It also seems reasonable to conclude that both Truly and Shelley changed their testimony between their immediate statements and their subsequent testimony to the Warren Commission in ways helpful to the lone nut hypothesis.

It also seems reasonable to note that Truly hired LHO and Shelley directly managed the work on the flooring of the 6th floor, creating the various stacks of boxes that created the 'snipers nest', under the line management of Truly.

The interest for me is mainly at the moment around the practical logistics of the sniper(s) operating in Dallas that day. It seems unavoidable to conclude that they had to have a reasonable anticipation of being able to access the TSBD, have suitable location(s) to shoot from with a reasonable chance of remaining undisturbed and then being able to get out. That does seem to suggest that they had one or more people inside the TSBD supporting the operation (reconnaisance, preparing the location, bringing in weapons beforehand, supporting the escape route etc.). In principle that could have been LHO himself, but on balance I think he was unwitting in terms of the full extent of what was going on and therefore requires one or more other individuals in a position to assist. Truly and Shelley, given their roles and actual actions, must be prime suspects.

Does the above seem reasonable?

As a follow on, could I ask for thought on what is the shortest and simplest connection path back to the core group of suspects in the DRE / AMWORLD/ JMWAVE (etc) millieu? Is that through Byrd and 8F and then to Pawley or are there other more direct connections?

 

Cheers

Anthony

I'm sill suspicious of Morales on the bottom end, gathering the participants, organizing the physical set up.  He worked for Shackley, some have mentioned Angelton, with Harvey, Phillips and a good chance of Joannadies.  He was an operator.  He died rather quickly, under protective custody.  With a quick funeral in a remote area attended by several black suits.  

Set up and execution of such was supposedly his area of expertise, based on past experience.

[Dr. Gregg Wager]

There is indeed a crucial point to make here with the Vickie Adams / Sandra Sykes time interval on the staircase. They not only did not see Oswald running down the stairs but didn't see anyone running down.

That would mean that if a shot or two were taken from the sixth floor sniper's nest (perhaps from the Mauser), whoever was shooting had found some place other than the sixth floor to hide or blend in as employees, above the fourth floor where Adams / Sykes entered the staircase.

David Reitzes's website attacks a depiction in Oliver Stone's film of "unknown workmen" refurbishing floors, quoting the WC Report, that this work was being done by TSBD employees (Bonnie Ray Williams, Charles Givens, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, and Danny Arce).

Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch downstairs at 12:25 (Reclaiming Parkland, 98); the Roy Truly / Marrion Baker story (put into question in Reclaiming Parkland, 192ff) would still make it hard for Oswald to race down the stairs; and Shelley and Lovelady were outside, downstairs. I always thought Williams's half-eaten chicken lunch a strange detail, especially if he may have been in the sniper's nest area as late as 10 minutes before the shooting (Reclaiming Parkland, 195f).

Which other TSBD employees (unaccounted for downstairs) could have constructed the sniper's nest scene and/or taken shots?   

Edited May 28, 2020 by Dr. Gregg Wager

[Pete Mellor]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:23 AM, Dr. Gregg Wager said:

There is indeed a crucial point to make here with the Vickie Adams / Sandra Sykes time interval on the staircase. They not only did not see Oswald running down the stairs but didn't see anyone running down.

That would mean that if a shot or two were taken from the sixth floor sniper's nest (perhaps from the Mauser), whoever was shooting had found some place other than the sixth floor to hide or blend in as employees, above the fourth floor where Adams / Sykes entered the staircase.

David Reitzes's website attacks a depiction in Oliver Stone's film of "unknown workmen" refurbishing floors, quoting the WC Report, that this work was being done by TSBD employees (Bonnie Ray Williams, Charles Givens, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, and Danny Arce).

Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch downstairs at 12:25 (Reclaiming Parkland, 98); the Roy Truly / Marrion Baker story (put into question in Reclaiming Parkland, 192ff) would still make it hard for Oswald to race down the stairs; and Shelley and Lovelady were outside, downstairs. I always thought Williams's half-eaten chicken lunch a strange detail, especially if he may have been in the sniper's nest area as late as 10 minutes before the shooting (Reclaiming Parkland, 195f).

Which other TSBD employees (unaccounted for downstairs) could have constructed the sniper's nest scene and/or taken shots?   

Purely by co-incidence I've just read Hyman's 'Burying the Lead' & p236 which states Miami Chief of Police Walter Headley Jr., quoting from Jesse Curry's book 'JFK Assassination File' ….."Eyewitnesses who reported seeing Dallas police interview two men on the 6th floor of the depository, turned over to the FBI and no statement about the second man or mention of an accomplice was in the FBI report."

Assume these witnesses had better eyesight than Howard Brennan!

[Rob Couteau]

On 5/27/2020 at 1:47 AM, Ron Bulman said:

I'm sill suspicious of Morales

Hi Ron, Just in case you haven't read it yet, there's some good stuff about Morales in Gaeton Fonzi's "Last Investigation." 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Rob Couteau

[Rob Couteau]

From Joachim Joesten's "Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy," first published in 1964. See paragraphs 2-5, p. 34. Even back in 1964 Joesten, could smell a rat at the TSBD and makes these prescient remarks.

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:48 AM, Rob Couteau said:

Hi Ron, Just in case you haven't read it yet, there's some good stuff about Morales in Gaeton Fonzi's "Last Investigation." 

Hi Rob, I've got the book, long time since I've read it though.  Maybe time for a review.  Thanks for the suggestion.