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Sandy,

I'm still confused. I wasn't wise to Harvey's wisdom tooth but forget about that. If Lee was the Marine with the missing front tooth (or teeth), is John Butler mistaken to post a photo of the Marine as Harvey with all of his teeth? Or maybe I should ask John, which Oswald was which?

 

  

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

LOL, should I be surprised that Tracy can't provide a single link to an Education Forum post that debunks the missing tooth evidence? 

It really gets old when you guys try to pretend that no one has ever argued against H&L at the EF. It has been done ad nauseum. Some of the threads are over 100 pages.

Here is a link to a directory of links on many topics including the dental issues:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1588-harvey-lee-links-to-alternative-explanations

These are on Parker's forum, but they make the same arguments he and others made right here at EF so what difference does it make where they are? The only things that haven't been debated are the theories that Butler, Hargrove and others are discussing in other threads that seem to be postulating multiple Marguerites and other individuals. No one (myself included) takes it seriously enough to bother with.

The bottom line is believe what you want to. But an informal poll right here at EF showed the majority do not believe in H&L. And many consider it a serious diversion from more significant matters.

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1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said:

Sandy,

I'm still confused. I wasn't wise to Harvey's wisdom tooth but forget about that. If Lee was the Marine with the missing front tooth (or teeth), is John Butler mistaken to post a photo of the Marine as Harvey with all of his teeth? Or maybe I should ask John, which Oswald was which?

Ron,

Both Oswalds were in the Marine Corps at approximately the same time, although Russian-speaking Harvey was in the Corps only sporadically.  The most famous example of this is that Harvey travelled aboard the U.S.S. Skagit bound for the South China Sea and spent time on the island of Formosa (Taiwan) at the very same time American-born Lee Oswald was being treated for venereal disease in Japan.

For the full story, see this John Armstrong write-up on my website:

Marine Corps and the Soviet Union

Here’s a synopsis of the well-known conflicting Marine data mentioned above from a write-up I did on the Ed Forum a while back:

3. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

HARVEY Oswald Departed for Taiwan Aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105) on Sept. 14, 1958. Note "AKA 105" Under "Record of Events" near top left of this document:

09%2014%2058.jpg

The Unit Diary below shows that HARVEY Oswald was in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on Oct. 6, 1958.

10%2006%2058.jpg

Here’s a 1953 image of the ship Harvey Oswald took .  Note the “K.A. 105” lettering by the bow.

uss%20skagit.jpg

 

During this very same time Harvey was aboard the USS Skagit and stationed in Taiwan, LEE  Oswald was being treated for V.D in Atsugi, Japan.  From September 14 through October 6 HARVEY Oswald was in Taiwan. At the same time, from September 16 through October 6, LEE Oswald was in Japan. Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital), located in Atsugi, Japan, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.. HARVEY Oswald's assignment in Taiwan, while LEE Oswald made numerous visits to the Naval Hospital in Japan, are an obvious "smoking gun."

1-medical%2009:1958.jpg2-medical%2009:5858.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said:

Sandy,

I'm still confused. I wasn't wise to Harvey's wisdom tooth but forget about that. If Lee was the Marine with the missing front tooth (or teeth), is John Butler mistaken to post a photo of the Marine as Harvey with all of his teeth? Or maybe I should ask John, which Oswald was which?

 

  

Ron,

The whole Harvey and Lee thing is confusing at first.  See David Josephs wonderful timeline of Harvey and Lee.  Sorting out whose who at the beginning takes some work and thinking.  Once you do it is very clear that that Josephs has clearly documented the beginnings of Harvey and Lee in the late 1940s in Texas. 

John Armstrong and his supporters have provided tons and tons of information that back up their contention that there were two Oswalds.  Sorting this out takes a while, but once you see the evidence there is no going back to a single lone nut Oswald.

harvey-the-man-shot-at-dallas-police.jpg

The first photo comparison is Harvey Oswald, the man shot at the Dallas Police station.  He is not Lee Harvey Oswald.  These photos show the teeth of an unknown individual who posed and died as Lee Harvey Oswald.  He is known as Harvey Oswald from John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee presentation. 

Both were in the Marine Corps.  This photo of Harvey was taken, most likely in Basic Training, in 1956.  If you compare the upper teeth you will see they are the same.  The left lateral incisor is smaller and identical in both photos.

It is Lee Harvey Oswald who has missing teeth. 

lee-oswald-teeth.jpg

Harvey Oswald is 17 years old in the Marine Corps photo above.  Lee Harvey Oswald is a younger teenager here, about 14 or15 years in the classroom photo and the Air Patrol photo.

When you put this evidence together as has been done by a number of people, it is indisputable there was a Harvey and Lee. 

 

Edited by John Butler
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Okay, thanks. I didn't realize that both Oswalds had been in the Marines. Harvey didn't look like the Marine type. In fact, in that photo of Harvey as a Marine he looks suspiciously like Alfred E. Neuman. (And in those days Mad Magazine was very popular.) The only difference (ironically) is that Alfred had a missing front tooth. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ron Ecker
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Alfred had freckles so that you could tell them apart.

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One other thing. I see that in 1958, according to the posted documents, the Marine Lee Oswald had a "urethral discharge." I would say that falls into the category of dishonorable discharges.

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Okay, thanks. I didn't realize that both Oswalds had been in the Marines. Harvey didn't look like the Marine type. In fact, in that photo of Harvey as a Marine he looks suspiciously like Alfred E. Neuman. (And in those days Mad Magazine was very popular.) The only difference (ironically) is that Alfred had a missing front tooth.

Laugh!  Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald didn’t act like much of a Marine, either.  On the evening of 10/4/58, while American-born LEE Oswald was still being treated for venereal disease in Japan, Harvey was on guard duty at Ping-Tung, Taiwan, more than 1,400 miles away. That night, Lt. Charles Rose found Harvey slumped against a tree, visibly shaking and crying while holding his M-1 rifle across his lap.  Harvey had some story about seeing something in a clump of trees and, according to Rhodes, “kept saying he just couldn’t bear being on guard duty.”

This fairly famous incident may explain why young HARVEY Oswald spent much of his so-called military career living in New Orleans and working as a messenger boy for Pfisterer Dental Labs.

EDIT: According to the USMC, LEE Oswald's VD was contracted "in the line of duty."  Must have been an interesting assignment.

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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HARVEY AND LEE confirms Oswald and John Wayne were both on Corregidor when Wayne visited Marines there in January 1958. Jim Hargrove, is this

supposed photo of the two authentic? It first appeared in the Epstein book on Oswald.

post-624-1166562729-1.jpg

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48 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

HARVEY AND LEE confirms Oswald and John Wayne were both on Corregidor when Wayne visited Marines there in January 1958. Jim Hargrove, is this

supposed photo of the two authentic? It first appeared in the Epstein book on Oswald.

post-624-1166562729-1.jpg

Thanks, Joe.  I don’t recall ever seeing this photo, but it sure looks like John Wayne seated and facing us.  I suppose the standing figure in the back is supposed to be Oswald?  There certainly is a similarity.

In January 1958, American-born LEE Oswald was on Corregidor and, despite what the FBI/Warren Commission wanted us to believe, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was temporarily out of the USMC entirely and working for Pfisterers in New Orleans.

I’ll email this photo to John A. and see what he thinks.  Thanks again!

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, Jim. Yes, it was in LEGEND by Epstein. That is supposed to be Oswald in the doorway. Wayne was filming

THE BARBARIAN AND THE GEISHA for John Huston and paid a visit

to Corregidor by helicopter to see the troops.

Edited by Joseph McBride
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There is indeed evidence that Oswald had been impersonated in the weeks before the assassination, in Dallas and in Mexico City, although some instances of apparent impersonation are much less persuasive than others.

It's one thing to propose a handful of instances of impersonation. But it's something else to claim that such instances were part of a long-term doppelganger project for which two unrelated boys from different parts of the world were selected at a young age in the hope that when they grew up they would turn out to look identical (or almost identical, depending on the needs of the theory at any given moment), and that each boy's mother also happened to look identical (apart from their eyebrows), and that one of the boys was chosen because he spoke Russian like a native speaker (despite the fact that he clearly didn't, and the fact that he was obviously a native speaker of US English), and that the wrong doppelganger boy ended up getting buried in Oswald's grave, and that one of the doppelganger boys may have been given an unnecessary mastoidectomy operation in a hospital that hadn't been built yet, and all the other crazy 'Harvey and Lee' inventions. Sylvia Meagher would never have taken that nonsense seriously.

There is every reason to question whether there were two Oswalds, in the 'Harvey and Lee' sense of an enormously involved long-term plot that's full of improbabilities. Framing a patsy can be done without the vast extra complication of the fictional 'Harvey and Lee' doppelganger project.

Jim seems convinced that "Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell met the two Oswalds in October 1963". Sadly, this 'Harvey and Lee' smoking gun isn't quite as smoking as Jim thinks it is, as Greg Parker points out:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2172-jimbo-baggins-finally-finds-the-harvey-lee-smoking-gun

I have a couple of questions for those few people who still take the 'Harvey and Lee' theory seriously. Imagine that you talking to a member of the general public who:

(a) doesn't know much about the JFK assassination;
(b) is open to hearing criticism of the lone-nut theory;
(c) isn't attracted to far-out stuff like faked moon landings.

Would you bring up the 'Harvey and Lee' theory? If not, why not?

Alternatively, if you were trying to convince a member of the public that critics of the lone-nut theory are a bunch of crazies, would you bring up the 'Harvey and Lee' theory? You would, wouldn't you?
 

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5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

There is indeed evidence that Oswald had been impersonated in the weeks before the assassination, in Dallas and in Mexico City, although some instances of apparent impersonation are much less persuasive than others.

It's one thing to propose a handful of instances of impersonation....

A handful of instances of impersonation?  There are at least that many in just the six weeks prior to the assassination,  as well as evidence for at least that many instances of impersonation on the very day of the assassination!

Mr. Bojczuk has demonstrated not the least bit of interest in why there is substantial evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was perhaps the most impersonated fellow in the history of the world. The list of likely impersonations goes on and on, usually with highly credible written evidence.  For example: 

For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days.  These records are published in the Warren volumes.

For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas.  The Stripling records have all disappeared (confiscated according to Stripling’s assistant principal by the FBI the very next business day after the assassination).  But a dozen or more newspaper articles have been printed over the years showing that one LHOs attendance at Stripling was common knowledge among faculty and students.

The Ed Forum’s Sandy Larsen and John Butler have both recently added to the photographic evidence that one Oswald had one or more missing front teeth, but the Oswald exhumed decades later obviously had all his front teeth intact.

The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”

One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away.

On the evening of 10/4/58, while one Oswald was still being treated for venereal disease in Japan, a second LHO was on guard duty at Ping-Tung, Taiwan, more than 1,400 miles away. That night, Lt. Charles Rhodes found Harvey slumped against a tree, visibly shaking and crying while holding his M-1 rifle across his lap.  This Oswald had some story about seeing something in a clump of trees and, according to Rhodes, “kept saying he just couldn’t bear being on guard duty.”  Lt. Rhodes reported this to author Edward Epstein (Legend, pp. 81-82).

One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union.

One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive.

Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell said on numerous occasions that she met two men claiming to be Lee Harvey Oswald in October 1963 and described their similarities and differences in some detail.

On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

There is much more evidence for this "handful of instances of impersonation" Mr. Bojczuk wants everyone to ignore, but I have prepared summaries of the evidence for all the above instances, if anyone who is still unconvinced is interested.  Clearly, Mr. Bojczuk isn't interested.

Mr. Bojczuk has never demonstrated the slightest curiosity about ANY of this.  He does not even consider a simpler explanation for why "Lee Harvey Oswald" clearly appears to have been the most impersonated fellow in history.  All he can do is lamely say people who believe there is something to this evidence are “paranoid” or wear “tin foil hats,” and, of course, say someone else somewhere else has debunked all this.  No one has debunked ANY of it.  

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It's one thing to propose a handful of instances of impersonation. But it's something else to claim that such instances were part of a long-term doppelganger project

What's your opinion on James Wilcott saying that he distributed military money for a CIA "Oswald project" in the late 1950's?

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I have a couple of questions for those few people who still take the 'Harvey and Lee' theory seriously. Imagine that you talking to a member of the general public who:

(a) doesn't know much about the JFK assassination;
(b) is open to hearing criticism of the lone-nut theory;
(c) isn't attracted to far-out stuff like faked moon landings.

Would you bring up the 'Harvey and Lee' theory? If not, why not?

I personally wouldn't, because I don't claim to fully understand it. I wouldn't even say I fully believe it either and I understand why you would find it unlikely. But I can't and wouldn't discount the theory because there seems to be evidence to back it up.

I definitely would bring up what appears to be evidence that Oswald was impersonated in the days and weeks leading up to the assassination. Far from dismissing them as a mere (and apparently meaningless) handful, I see evidence of even one impersonation of Oswald to be evidence of the conspirators at work, therefore worthy of close examination and comparisons to other alleged instances of Oswald impersonation. And I might bring up James Wilcott's testimony. It seems to me that if one accepts the possibility that James Wilcott's testimony is accurate, even the most conservative estimation of "late 1950's" would indicate a CIA run "Oswald Project" that dates back more than two and a half years.

The thing to point out is that it of course it would be crazy to think that the CIA started the so-called "Oswald project" to assassinate a president that hadn't even been elected yet. That's why it would be important to note that an "Oswald project" was likely started with the intention of creating a better spy to spy on the Soviet Union, certainly not an outlandish concept, in my view.

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Alternatively, if you were trying to convince a member of the public that critics of the lone-nut theory are a bunch of crazies, would you bring up the 'Harvey and Lee' theory? You would, wouldn't you?

That's a theoretical question I don't think I can answer. I haven't tried to put myself in the shoes of a LN and tried to argue the case from that perspective. But I had grown up with the Lone Nut theory and had no reason to doubt it at the time I knew little. Ironically it was Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" that both sparked my interest in the case and made me a CT. It is hard to try and put myself back in the frame of mind where I thought Oswald did it alone and try to imagine what I would have attempted to argue. I hope I would have argued from the evidence instead of trying to portray my opponents as "crazies."

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