JFK's Shirt

[Micah Mileto]

48 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Adam, if I could show that you’ve been taken in by a fraud — would you ever admit it, and stand corrected? 

BTW Cliff, what is your stance on the defects on the front of JFK's clothing?

[Cliff Varnell]

57 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

BTW Cliff, what is your stance on the defects on the front of JFK's clothing?

Cuts made in the RR.

[Adam Johnson]

You'll have a tough battle Cliff. I spent about 8 hours over a 4 to 5 week period with two forensic scientists from the Victorian Police Department in 2012 showing them the evidence that i was able to collect from the internet and from books i had gathered since 1991.

My quest was to get their (not my) verdict on whether a single bullet could cause the damage to JFK's clothing as shown in the Photos in the FBI supplementary report dated Jan 64 and which matched the measurements in the FBI memo from Nov 63.

Secondly could that same bullet also traverse the body leaving the wounds we have from autopsy reports, doctors statements and images of JFK's body.

The third thing i wanted to get from them was the angle of trajectory a bullet would need to be travelling at to make the two above groups of evidence plausible.

Im not an author, or a journalist. I did all this to satisfy my own curiosity. Similarly the two trips i have made to Dealey Plaza and the hours i have spent walking the north and south sides of the plaza. The time ive spent on the overpass and behind the picket fence on the knoll. I even got into two offices in the Daltex Building over looking the plaza. All of this was done to satisfy my own curiosity.

On top of that ive been a sports/hunting shooter since my teens. Ive seen bullets do some crazy things when they hit animals and everyday objects. 

Bottom line, my final take is that from the jacket,shirt and tie we have plausible back to front bullet trajectory thru the body. From the back wound and throat wound locations we have evidence of a possible path for the bullet thru the body. I believe that path thru the body was not a perfect straight line, the bullet was deflected thru the body. The casing and lead portions of the bullet may have even completely seperated leaving a downward bullet track thru JFK's body bruising the plura and top of the right lung. The mostly lead portion of the bullet exited at the throat went thru the shirt and tie then wizzed passed John Connelly's left shoulder and ear striking the inside of the limousine windscreen.

So knock yourself out trying to convince me otherwise. 

Mr. Johnson 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

You'll have a tough battle Cliff. I spent about 8 hours over a 4 to 5 week period with two forensic scientists from the Victorian Police Department in 2012 showing them the evidence that i was able to collect from the internet and from books i had gathered since 1991.

My quest was to get their (not my) verdict on whether a single bullet could cause the damage to JFK's clothing as shown in the Photos in the FBI supplementary report dated Jan 64 and which matched the measurements in the FBI memo from Nov 63.

Secondly could that same bullet also traverse the body leaving the wounds we have from autopsy reports, doctors statements and images of JFK's body.

The third thing i wanted to get from them was the angle of trajectory a bullet would need to be travelling at to make the two above groups of evidence plausible.

Im not an author, or a journalist. I did all this to satisfy my own curiosity. Similarly the two trips i have made to Dealey Plaza and the hours i have spent walking the north and south sides of the plaza. The time ive spent on the overpass and behind the picket fence on the knoll. I even got into two offices in the Daltex Building over looking the plaza. All of this was done to satisfy my own curiosity.

On top of that ive been a sports/hunting shooter since my teens. Ive seen bullets do some crazy things when they hit animals and everyday objects. 

Bottom line, my final take is that from the jacket,shirt and tie we have plausible back to front bullet trajectory thru the body. From the back wound and throat wound locations we have evidence of a possible path for the bullet thru the body. I believe that path thru the body was not a perfect straight line, the bullet was deflected thru the body. The casing and lead portions of the bullet may have even completely seperated leaving a downward bullet track thru JFK's body bruising the plura and top of the right lung. The mostly lead portion of the bullet exited at the throat went thru the shirt and tie then wizzed passed John Connelly's left shoulder and ear striking the inside of the limousine windscreen.

So knock yourself out trying to convince me otherwise. 

Mr. Johnson 

 

You wouldn’t knowingly tell a lie about the evidence in order to protect your 29 year old Pet Theory — would you?

[Adam Johnson]

Cliff, 

Prove to me that evidence produced within 11 hours of the assassination by people with access to the body and clothing worn by JFK is fraudulent because unless you can do that your irrelevant.

By the way,  you dont know me, we have never met, but i was in San Fran last Sept and i recommend you dont accuse people you dont know of lying. 

[Cliff Varnell]

9 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

Cliff, 

Prove to me that evidence produced within 11 hours of the assassination by people with access to the body and clothing worn by JFK is fraudulent because unless you can do that your irrelevant.

By the way,  you dont know me, we have never met, but i was in San Fran last Sept and i recommend you dont accuse people you dont know of lying. 

Keep yer shirt on, Adam. I just asked you a question. 

It’s a legitimate question given the fact that Admiral George Burkley’s contemporaneous note on the Death Certificate put the back wound at T3; Secret Service agent Glen Bennett in his contemporaneous notes described the back wound as “four inches down” from the shoulder;  SS SA Clint Hill made contemporaneous mental notes and testified the back wound was “six inches below the neckline”; James Curtis Jenkins filled out the autopsy face sheet and placed the back wound in a location consistent with the holes in the clothes; Mortician Tom Robinson’s notes put the back wound 5 inches below the neckline; FBI agents James Sibert and Francis O’Neill described the back wound in their report as “below the shoulder.”

Are you accusing these men of lying, Adam?

 

[Cory Santos]

Adam, evidence is not "fraudulent" as you stated above.   Evidence is relevant or not relevant, inadmissible, can be manipulated or forged, etc.  So I am not sure what you meant by "fraudulent".  If I read and understood your comments accurately, you are asking which evidence, perhaps specifically to the shirt and or body,  is not authentic, or, put another way, which evidence within the first 11 hours is questionable.   To answer, please read the Warren Omission for a list of plenty of "fraudulent" evidence obtained in the first 11 hours, including the body and autopsy itself.   Feel free to chat with David Lifton about that.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Cory Santos

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

Adam, evidence is not "fraudulent" as you stated above.   Evidence is relevant or not relevant, inadmissible, can be manipulated or forged, etc.  So I am not sure what you meant by "fraudulent".  If I read and understood your comments accurately, you are asking which evidence, perhaps specifically to the shirt and or body,  is not authentic, or, put another way, which evidence within the first 11 hours is questionable.   To answer, please read the Warren Omission for a list of plenty of "fraudulent" evidence obtained in the first 11 hours, including the body and autopsy itself.   Feel free to chat with David Lifton about that.

Cory, figuring out the medical evidence is easy. Any evidence produced according to proper autopsy protocol is gold — material NOT produced according to proper autopsy protocol is garbage.

The Death Certificate, the portion of the autopsy face sheet filled out in pencil, and the cervical x-ray are gold.

The back-of-the-head autopsy photo, the final autopsy report, and the measurements written in pen on the face sheet are garbage.

T3 deniers promote garbage.

[Ron Bulman]

I believe I've been under a false impression for many years.  I don't think I've ever seen the exact location of the throat wound discussed in much detail.  Seems I'd read below the Adams Apple as a general area.  

From the death stare photo I'd thought it was lower down than than it appears on re-examination even though it does still seem fairly low.

 

I'd also seen this photo of the tie I posted earlier with what I thought was a bullet hole in it.

 

It does look somewhat like a bullet hole with what might be burn marks around the edges though the fabric inside the tie does not appear damaged.

I thought the throat shot went through his tie.  I don't think I've ever read Dr. Carrico's statement to Dulles about just above the tie.  Thanks to James for enlightening me.

I still can't look at the death stare photo without thinking about a small clean entrance wound (smooth edges vs jagged in an exit wound) of a few millimeters, about the size of a pencil.  To a fine slit with a scalpel across it of maybe close to an inch to insert the tube by Dr. Perry.  To the butchery of the death stare photo many believe was not taken at Bethesda.  I believe I read recently at Bethesda it was close to three inches wide.  Makes me really wonder if someone wasn't digging around in there for a bullet or fragments.  Or as least trying to make it look like an exit wound (if so, they failed imo).   

[Micah Mileto]

17 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

It does look somewhat like a bullet hole with what might be burn marks around the edges though the fabric inside the tie does not appear damaged.

Those "burn marks" are probably just a chemical used by the FBI to test for metallic residue, right?

[Micah Mileto]

BTW, I don't know why Weisberg tried to theorize that a scalpel was used to cut the clothing, to me it seems equally likely the defects on the front of the clothing could've been made with scissors.

[Cory Santos]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I believe I've been under a false impression for many years.  I don't think I've ever seen the exact location of the throat wound discussed in much detail.  Seems I'd read below the Adams Apple as a general area.  

From the death stare photo I'd thought it was lower down than than it appears on re-examination even though it does still seem fairly low.

 

I'd also seen this photo of the tie I posted earlier with what I thought was a bullet hole in it.

 

It does look somewhat like a bullet hole with what might be burn marks around the edges though the fabric inside the tie does not appear damaged.

I thought the throat shot went through his tie.  I don't think I've ever read Dr. Carrico's statement to Dulles about just above the tie.  Thanks to James for enlightening me.

I still can't look at the death stare photo without thinking about a small clean entrance wound (smooth edges vs jagged in an exit wound) of a few millimeters, about the size of a pencil.  To a fine slit with a scalpel across it of maybe close to an inch to insert the tube by Dr. Perry.  To the butchery of the death stare photo many believe was not taken at Bethesda.  I believe I read recently at Bethesda it was close to three inches wide.  Makes me really wonder if someone wasn't digging around in there for a bullet or fragments.  Or as least trying to make it look like an exit wound (if so, they failed imo).   

Interestingly enough Cliff and I had the same discussion till 2 a.m. in April over the issue of the stare photo and the tie