Was it really just a MOLE HUNT about "Oswald?"

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

We’ve been talking about this for a while, but I’m just beginning to appreciate how weird it is.  If we assume that the reversing of “Lee Harvey” and “Harvey Lee” was just an error by Soviet bureaucrats, then must we also assume that the formal rejection of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Russian citizenship request was made not only a year and a half after he left the Soviet Union, but also nearly two weeks after he was shot dead in Dallas police headquarters by Jack Ruby?

 

If we assume that references to “Lee Harvey” and “Harvey Lee” are, in fact, references to two different people in the USSR in the early 1960s,  what are we to make of that?  Does it take us back to Michael Eddowes’ theory that “Khrushchev Killed Kennedy” and that the man killed by Jack Ruby was a Russian agent sent to the U.S. in 1961?

Can you make any more sense of this?
 

Jim,

The statement from Dobrynin in December, 1963 is only an explanation for the Soviet's rejection of Oswald's application. Like I said, we don't have the actual application, nor any paperwork relating to the Soviet's rejection.

It's interesting, I said that the negative character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

But that's not how the Russian rejection letter on page 434 reads. It calls him, "Oswald Lee Harvey". in both places.

It looks like either the translator, or the typist screwed up; or the transposing of names was deliberate.

In all places in the character reference, it uses the Russian for for "Citizen" when it refers to Oswald. (Гражданин).

(That's pronounced, Graach/da/neen)

Why they would be calling him a Citizen in 1961, and then explaining in 1963  why they rejected his citizenship application is beyond me. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

Steve Thomas

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

If we assume that references to “Lee Harvey” and “Harvey Lee” are, in fact, references to two different people in the USSR in the early 1960s,  what are we to make of that?  Does it take us back to Michael Eddowes’ theory that “Khrushchev Killed Kennedy” and that the man killed by Jack Ruby was a Russian agent sent to the U.S. in 1961?

Trouble is, that was disproved decades ago by Linda Norton and her exhumation team.  The evidence she, uh, uncovered is pretty clear: the “Lee Harvey Oswald” buried in Oak Hill Cemetery clearly had a life in the U.S. and the U.S. Marines Corps, which pretty much disproves that a Russian agent invented in 1961 was shot dead by Jack Ruby.

It wasn't only Eddowes' far-fetched 'Soviet imposter' theory that was disproved by the exhumation of Oswald's body. Also disproved was the even more far-fetched theory that the person buried in Oswald's grave was not just an Eastern European imposter but one who had been selected at a young age to participate in a long-term doppelganger project. This particular imaginary imposter scheme lasted a decade longer than Eddowes' imaginary imposter scheme, and involved an additional cast member, an imposter mother who looked just like the real Marguerite Oswald. One of the doppelgangers and one of the mothers vanished into thin air immediately after the assassination.

The far-fetched doppelganger theory claimed that one of the two doppelgangers had undergone a mastoidectomy operation as a young boy, and that the other doppelganger, who had not undergone the operation, was the one buried in Oswald's grave:

Quote

It was Lee Oswald who had the mastoidectomy operation ... Harvey Oswald's body ... was buried in Rose Hill Cemetery ... The remains examined by Dr Norton were of Harvey Oswald. ... This man was not Lee Oswald.

(John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, pp.946-7; bold-face in the original)

But the exhumation showed that the body in the grave had indeed had a mastoidectomy. It was a fundamental aspect of this particular far-fetched theory that the doppelganger who was shot by Jack Ruby and then buried in the grave had not undergone a mastoidectomy operation. Once this aspect of the theory was disproved, the whole theory collapsed.

Most people would not be surprised to learn that the theory was dreamed up partly by someone who thought the moon landings had been faked and that no planes actually hit the World Trade Center.

What is surprising is that the theory was put forward in the form of a book that was published nearly 20 years after the exhumation had disproved the theory. Even more surprisingly, the author of the book must have known that the theory had been disproved by the exhumation, because in his book he actually cited the pathologists' report.

But for some reason the author failed to mention the inconvenient fact that, according to the pathologists' report, the body in the grave had undergone a mastoidectomy operation. He knew that the report contained information that clearly disproved his theory. What was he to do? Throw away his manuscript? Since his readers probably wouldn't be aware of what the report said about the mastoidectomy, the easiest thing to do would be simply to avoid mentioning the inconvenient evidence, and hope that no-one noticed.

It looks as though the author was deliberately misleading his readers, doesn't it? Does Jim have any idea why the author of the book deliberately misled his readers?
 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Steve,

The word гражданин here means citizen in the sense of someone who is permitted to live in a particular place. The document refers to Oswald's legal residence in the Soviet Union, and does not imply that he possessed Soviet citizenship in the usual sense of the word.

A pedant writes: гражданин is pronounced 'grazh-da-nin', not 'grach-da-nin' ('zh' as in Dr Zhivago).
 

[Steve Thomas]

Jeremy,

You wrote, "

Steve,

The word гражданин here means citizen in the sense of someone who is permitted to live in a particular place. The document refers to Oswald's legal residence in the Soviet Union, and does not imply that he possessed Soviet citizenship in the usual sense of the word.

A pedant writes: гражданин is pronounced 'grazh-da-nin', not 'grach-da-nin' ('zh' as in Dr Zhivago)."

 

Thanks. I had that letter mixed up with the X that would be pronounced like :Loch Ness Monster, or the German word, Achtung!

I have a lot to learn.

The word "Citizen" is defined as, a native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection (distinguished from alien).

In my mind, a "Citizen" conveys something stronger than just permitting someone to live there. Just granting Oswald the right to live in the USSR was the whole purpose for his "non-citizen alien identity card".

But, like you say, maybe I've been reading too much into it.

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. Bojczuk continues to claim that the mastoidectomy is fatal to Harvey and Lee even though a member of the exhumation team, Dr. Vincent Di Maio, noted that “many World War II-era kids bore the same scar.”  Dr. Linda Norton’s team went on to identify the man in the grave at Rose Hill Cemetery by Marine Corps dental records.

But John Armstrong has proved that there were two men in the USMC at roughly the same time going by the name Lee Harvey Oswald.  One, for example, had a false upper front tooth that failed while in the Marines, while the body exhumed in 1981 had all its front teeth intact.  One LHO in the Marines in 1958 traveled aboard the USS Skagit and was stationed in Ping-Tung Taiwan at the very same time another LHO was treated repeatedly for venereal disease far away in Atsugi, Japan.  One LHO could read, write, and speak the Russian language while still a Marine, the other could not.  From Marine Corps unit diaries and other records, it is easy to see that one Oswald worked with an entirely different group of Marines than the other at numerous times.

Dr. Norton’s team did indeed prove that the man buried in Oak Hill cemetery was Lee Harvey Oswald.  One of them, that is.  I have told Mr. Bojczuk more than once that I disagree with John Armstrong about the mastoidectomy.  I think it was the Russian-speaking Oswald all along that had it, and that Hoover found out and faked a record or two, as he did so often in this case. 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:17 PM, John Butler said:

Does anyone know why the Russians were using the name Harvey Lee Oswald?  They did so more than once so this is probably not an error.

It was not only in Russia.  Note the bottom line on Oswald’s Dependency Affidavit ("Oswald, Harvey Lee").

 

During the Clay Shaw trial headed by Jim Garrison, CIA agent Donald P. Norton testified that Shaw gave him a suitcase full of cash to deliver to “Harvey Lee” in Monterrey, Mexico.  He said Harvey Lee indicated he was from New Orleans and, when he saw newspaper pictures after the assassination, Norton thought “Harvey Lee” looked identical to the alleged assassin except for thinner hair.

There is some evidence that on 8/9/63 Lt. Francis Martello interviewed “Harvey Lee Oswald” in a New Orleans jail.  (See H&L, p. 565).  John A. also reports that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appeared five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statement, which was presented to the WC six months after her mistreatment/interrogation. (H&L p. 673)

There are a number of other references to “Harvey Lee Oswald” in U.S. documents.  Since the juxtaposition of two first names seems possible in such a large database, this all may have little real significance, but it is interesting how often it occurs.

Steve Thomas said:

Quote

 

Jim,

The statement from Dobrynin in December, 1963 is only an explanation for the Soviet's rejection of Oswald's application. Like I said, we don't have the actual application, nor any paperwork relating to the Soviet's rejection.

 

Ah, thanks for the clarification!

[Steve Thomas]

16 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There are a number of other references to “Harvey Lee Oswald” in U.S. documents.  Since the juxtaposition of two first names seems possible in such a large database, this all may have little real significance, but it is interesting how often it occurs.

 

Jim,

I've found 30 of them so far.

Steve Thomas

[Denny Zartman]

I'm still reading and digesting the Kittrell manuscript. Thank you to everyone posting on this thread. It's very interesting.

My initial observations:

Kittrell's identification of Larry Crafard as the impostor seems to be an important piece of information I'll be curious to learn more about.

I also need to learn more about Thomas Eli Davis, reportedly a CIA associate that allegedly admitted to using Oswald's name.

The motorcycle jacket is a fascinating detail that I still don't fully understand. Common sense seems to indicate that it was most likely an identifiable wardrobe item shared by two people to make it easier for one to pass as the other. Does anyone know if there any photos of Oswald wearing such a jacket, and/or was a jacket similar to this description ever found among his belongings? Interesting how this case now features two mysterious Oswald jackets.

Kittrell also makes an interesting observation that an American passing through Minsk probably wouldn't immediately be offered a job. If the information in the earlier posts of this thread is true and Oswald was the only American staying in Minsk as opposed to passing through as a tourist, that would also be noteworthy. I personally interpreted the "little bits of metal" explanation to indicate that Oswald held the factory job and was paid for it, but didn't actually ever work there. Either the Soviets gave him a cover job that paid him and didn't require him to work, or he just dropped into the country and got a job working with "little bits of metal." If he actually had this job, why then could/would he not be able to better explain the specific work to the employment counselor in order to help him find similar employment? As if Kittrell is going to call up her contacts looking for jobs that involve "little bits of metal" because she has a job-seeker who is experienced in "little bits of metal." In short, either scenario sounds shady to me.

I have great difficulty in believing that the pregnant woman observed at Kittrell's first meeting with the man in the motorcycle jacket was a Marina impostor, despite her clothing apparently not matching what Marina usually wore. I also don't understand why that Oswald would feel the need for the violent demonstration of hitting the table. Trying to implicate himself by displaying a hair-trigger temper doesn't make sense. It seems to me that two impostors would be more likely than "real" Oswald with a fake Marina.

[Denny Zartman]

On 5/23/2020 at 6:15 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It was a fundamental aspect of this particular far-fetched theory that the doppelganger who was shot by Jack Ruby and then buried in the grave had not undergone a mastoidectomy operation. Once this aspect of the theory was disproved, the whole theory collapsed.

I don't believe so. If one aspect of a theory is disproved, it doesn't automatically invalidate all the other aspects.

When you say far-fetched, I assume you are talking specifically about the concept of a long term doppelganger project, and not about the idea that someone else was using Oswald's identity prior to the assassination, correct? We don't believe that one or more people were using Oswald's identity by accident or coincidence, do we? That right there seems to me to prove there was some sort of secret organized project that involved Oswald's identity was going on behind the scenes.

If one acknowledges that an individual or individuals were actively using Oswald's identity in the days/weeks/months/years prior to the assassination, is it really that far-fetched to think that a longer-term program intended to create a better spy might have existed? You think the military wouldn't try such a thing? Aren't we really just arguing about the degree?

[Steve Thomas]

46 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Kittrell also makes an interesting observation that an American passing through Minsk probably wouldn't immediately be offered a job. If the information in the earlier posts of this thread is true and Oswald was the only American staying in Minsk as opposed to passing through as a tourist, that would also be noteworthy.

Denny,

Oswald wasn't "passing through" Minsk.

He was sent there.

From, “Lee Harvey Oswald in His Own Words: The "Historic Diary"”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

Jan 4 (1960). “I am called to passsport office and finally given a Soviet document, not the soviet citizenship as I so wanted, only a Residence document, not even for foreigners but a paper called, "for those without citizenship." Still I am happy. The official says they are sending me to the city of "Minsk."

Jan. 11." I visit Minsk radio factory where I shall work."

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It was not only in Russia.  Note the bottom line on Oswald’s Dependency Affidavit ("Oswald, Harvey Lee").

 

During the Clay Shaw trial headed by Jim Garrison, CIA agent Donald P. Norton testified that Shaw gave him a suitcase full of cash to deliver to “Harvey Lee” in Monterrey, Mexico.  He said Harvey Lee indicated he was from New Orleans and, when he saw newspaper pictures after the assassination, Norton thought “Harvey Lee” looked identical to the alleged assassin except for thinner hair.

There is some evidence that on 8/9/63 Lt. Francis Martello interviewed “Harvey Lee Oswald” in a New Orleans jail.  (See H&L, p. 565).  John A. also reports that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appeared five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statement, which was presented to the WC six months after her mistreatment/interrogation. (H&L p. 673)

There are a number of other references to “Harvey Lee Oswald” in U.S. documents.  Since the juxtaposition of two first names seems possible in such a large database, this all may have little real significance, but it is interesting how often it occurs.

Steve Thomas said:

Ah, thanks for the clarification!

I haven't seen any military records for Harvey Lee Oswald, PFC at Santa Ana at 31 July 1959.  So, I am assuming there is none.  Santa Ana as a military address says Harvey, not Lee.  And, Lee is discharged in March, 1959.  This must be Harvey unless this is disinformation in the mole hunt of James J.

These are the things found in Harvey and Lee concerning Harvey Lee Oswald.

1. Harvey Lee Oswald, PFC at Santa Ana at 31 July 1959 

2. 8/9/63 Lt. Francis Martello interviewed “Harvey Lee Oswald” in a New Orleans jail.  August 10, 1963-  About 10:00 am Martello instructed the jailer to bring Harvey Lee Oswald to him for an interview. 

3. (no date) During the Clay Shaw trial headed by Jim Garrison, CIA agent Donald P. Norton testified that Shaw gave him a suitcase full of cash to deliver to “Harvey Lee” in Monterrey, Mexico.  (Which Monterrey is this?  Is there more than one?)

4. John A. also reports that the name “Harvey Lee Oswald” appeared five times in the Spanish language version of Sylvia Duran’s statement, which was presented to the WC six months after her mistreatment/interrogation. (H&L p. 673)

5. Nov.-Dec., 1963 Lieutenant Revill listed his name as Harvey Lee Oswald and his address as 605 Elsbeth

6. After the DFS and CIA made additional changes to Duran's statements, a final10-page statement was prepared, signed, and submitted to the Warren Commission on
May 18, 1964, six months after her interrogation.  NOTE: It remains unknown whether the CIA or DF S prepared the 1 0-page statement. It is known that the name "Harvey Lee Oswald, as reported by Duran s friends, occurs five times in the Spanish language version.

7. After the FBI completed it's investigation in the late spring of 1964 the Mexican Police (DFS) needed to make changes to Silvia Duran's 10-page statement so that her statement did not conflict with other information about Oswald. The name "Harvey Lee Oswald" was changed to "Lee Harvey Oswald." Duran's description of Oswald as, "Blond, short, and poorly dressed," was removed.

Except for one these records point to the time period of Jim Garrison's phrase "Sheep Dipping".  I suppose the record of Harvey Lee Oswald at Santa Ana could have been changed at this time. 

 

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

I've found 30 of them so far.

Steve Thomas

30 references to Harvey Lee Oswald.  Do these references have dates attached.  And, if possible could you share those 30 incidents with folks.  I just posted 7 references found in the Hardy and Lee.PDF.

The rest would be nice to have. 

3 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I have great difficulty in believing that the pregnant woman observed at Kittrell's first meeting with the man in the motorcycle jacket was a Marina impostor, despite her clothing apparently not matching what Marina usually wore. I also don't understand why that Oswald would feel the need for the violent demonstration of hitting the table. Trying to implicate himself by displaying a hair-trigger temper doesn't make sense. It seems to me that two impostors would be more likely than "real" Oswald with a fake Marina

Good thinking and conclusions.  Wasn't a person there described as appearing to be Robert Oswald?  If so that would make it more likely or not for the other to be the real characters with maybe an imposter of so? 

[John Butler]

An interesting item about Minsk and Belarus (Belorussia) from the Historic Diary:

Jan. 11.I visit Minsk radio factory where I shall work. There I meet Argentinian Immigrant Alexander Ziger. Born a Polish Jew, immigrated to Argentinia in 1938 and back to Polish homeland (now part of Belorussia) in 1955, speaks English with American accent; he worked for American company in Argentinia.

I think I tried to make this point earlier about the area of Belarus (Belorussia) once being a part of Poland.  Belarus borders five countries: Latvia to the north, Lithuania to the northwest, Poland to the west, Russia to the north and the east, and Ukraine to the south.

This may help explains Harvey's accent.  For those who said Harvey's accent was Polish, could they say his accent was Polish from Belarus?  (maybe or maybe not?)   Marina didn't say his accent was Polish, but Baltic perhaps from Lithuania.  St. Petersburg or Leningrad is not that far from Lithuania.  Marina once lived in Leningrad and would she know the difference? 

Another thing of interest is this:

    

Oswald was assigned to the Experimental Shop from the very beginning.  I wonder what they experimented on?  Radar equipment?  Guidance systems?

Edited May 24, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 1:10 PM, Steve Thomas said:

For some more funny  business going on...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&tab=page

On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

"Comrade" Lee Harvey Oswald is hired January 1, 1960 as an assembler.

Two weeks later, "Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald is hired on January 13, 1960 as a regulator.

If I have this right, a regulator was someone connected with quality control.

Steve,

I couldn't find any information on what an "assembler" or "regulator" does in a Russian factory.  Your statement of a regulator being someone involved in quality control moves the argument that Oswald was working on sophisticated electronic equipment as a person in quality control in the Experimental Shop.  Once again this sounds like radar or guidance systems.

The problem with this is Lee Oswald was the person sent to secret bases involving black operation matters concerning atomic experiments and the new A-12 airplane.  He was also sent to a new Marine air base primarily involved in radar operations for the Stategic Air Command just prior to leaving the service.  He was at Atsugi, housed with the maintenance and repair crews in the same barracks.  Meanwhile Harvey is in New Orleans and other places then those mentioned.  Could Harvey have been trained in these matters during his AWOL year in New Orleans while he was said to be working at the Pfisterer (sp?) Dental lab?    

Edited May 24, 2020 by John Butler

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

30 references to Harvey Lee Oswald.  Do these references have dates attached.  And, if possible could you share those 30 incidents with folks.  I just posted 7 references found in the Hardy and Lee.PDF.

The rest would be nice to have.

John,

You might want to look at this Forum thread:

Harvey Lee Oswald

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24392-harvey-lee-oswald/

Steve Thomas