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https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index

A number of years ago now I undertook to examine the documentary evidence related to the infamous trip to Mexico City...

Not all the info currently represents my POV...  I do not think it was LEE rather than Harvey on the trip... rather than Lee and group leave more conflicting evidence throughout southern TX radio stations.  I am working on updates and a more visual presentation... but I got a day job too...

With what we now knew of the WCR, this statement from Lopez and a bad forgery job on a hotel registry led me on my way. 

Lopez choosing not to re-investigate gives the WCR story the seal of approval...   Even if they don't know what happened down there, surely the journey - like a trail of breadcrumbs - would lead us to some answers....

Enjoy! and please feel free to address any questions about the journey here.
DJ

5a99b3b957456_LopezreportstatementaboutOswaldtriptoMexico.jpg.769c4885e984bce12daa6981e0cf9ae6.jpgThe WCR did not correctly establish a single thing as far as I've been able to find...

 

The link above is to 6 chapters examining in details the trip's evidence...Parts 3 and 4 are especially meaty yet there were activities which transpired that most are completely unaware such as the bus manifests only for Sept 26/27 and Oct 2/3 are taken by "presidential staff" within hours of the assassination...  One of them - the Frontera return trip - is specifically altered in front of witnesses by Arturo Bosch to add Oswald and change the dates and bus info...   Part 1 is more a look at the history...  Part 2 brings us to Laredo...  Part 3 to Mexico City via Monterrey and the Aussie girls
Part 4 is the lead-up to leaving...    Part 5  begins the morning of Oct 2nd and the infamous taxi charade...  and gets us to Dallas.  Part 6 is a chronological recap discussion

The manner by which the WCR shrugs off conclusions supported by faked evidence for months, NEVER begs the question... why was it altered in the first place?

1931956282_WCRBus340FronterawasnotOswald.jpg.55f8832d35751a66564fd071ddd85d64.jpg

 

566347750_63-10-02CE2527-Fronterabuspassengermanifest-Oswaldseat4-writtenbyBosch.jpg.f73f7f1552647988d3dbdfea8a84f9c1.jpg

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On 7/11/2020 at 9:03 PM, David Josephs said:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index

A number of years ago now I undertook to examine the documentary evidence related to the infamous trip to Mexico City...

Not all the info currently represents my POV...  I do not think it was LEE rather than Harvey on the trip... rather than Lee and group leave more conflicting evidence throughout southern TX radio stations.  I am working on updates and a more visual presentation... but I got a day job too...

With what we now knew of the WCR, this statement from Lopez and a bad forgery job on a hotel registry led me on my way. 

Lopez choosing not to re-investigate gives the WCR story the seal of approval...   Even if they don't know what happened down there, surely the journey - like a trail of breadcrumbs - would lead us to some answers....

Enjoy! and please feel free to address any questions about the journey here.
DJ

5a99b3b957456_LopezreportstatementaboutOswaldtriptoMexico.jpg.769c4885e984bce12daa6981e0cf9ae6.jpgThe WCR did not correctly establish a single thing as far as I've been able to find...

 

The link above is to 6 chapters examining in details the trip's evidence...Parts 3 and 4 are especially meaty yet there were activities which transpired that most are completely unaware such as the bus manifests only for Sept 26/27 and Oct 2/3 are taken by "presidential staff" within hours of the assassination...  One of them - the Frontera return trip - is specifically altered in front of witnesses by Arturo Bosch to add Oswald and change the dates and bus info...   Part 1 is more a look at the history...  Part 2 brings us to Laredo...  Part 3 to Mexico City via Monterrey and the Aussie girls
Part 4 is the lead-up to leaving...    Part 5  begins the morning of Oct 2nd and the infamous taxi charade...  and gets us to Dallas.  Part 6 is a chronological recap discussion

The manner by which the WCR shrugs off conclusions supported by faked evidence for months, NEVER begs the question... why was it altered in the first place?

1931956282_WCRBus340FronterawasnotOswald.jpg.55f8832d35751a66564fd071ddd85d64.jpg

 

566347750_63-10-02CE2527-Fronterabuspassengermanifest-Oswaldseat4-writtenbyBosch.jpg.f73f7f1552647988d3dbdfea8a84f9c1.jpg

D.J. Looking forward to the Zoom meet on Saturday.  Part way through your K.& K. article, so any questions will be on Saturday.

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38 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

D.J. Looking forward to the Zoom meet on Saturday.  Part way through your K.& K. article, so any questions will be on Saturday.

Sounds good Peter....  looking forward to it as well...

DJ

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Hi David Josephs--I have only read Parts I and II so far of your Mexico City series but thought I would offer this comment so far. It seems the method in arguing that Oswald did not go to Mexico City relies in part on arguments from chronological impossibility, citing the Silvia Odio visit as well as witness reports in Austin. The Silvia Odio visit is not a chronological impossibility at all for Oswald to get from Silvia Odio's place in Dallas to Houston by 2:35 am the night of Wed. Sept 25, by being driven there. I showed that in the "Identity of 'Leopoldo'" thread.

On Austin, there are witness accounts of Oswald in Austin from Dannelly at the Selective Service office, and Stella Norman at the Trek Cafe, both of which read as credible to me. However that cannot have occurred Wed Sept 25 consistent with the Silvia Odio visit and then Oswald to Houston that night, and in addition Stella Norman said the one weekday her Oswald encounter could not have occurred was a Wednesday since Wednesday was always her day off. Mrs. Dannelly on the other hand remembered very specifically that Oswald had visited the Selective Service office on a Wednesday, since she was paid every other Wednesday and she remembered the day Oswald was there had been one of her paydays. 

From digging through the documents on the Mary Ferrell site the solution is recognizing errors in date reconstructions which produce illusory contradictions that are not necessary. Neither Dannelly nor Stella Norman were certain of the date, remembering only their respective specific but seemingly-contradictory Wednesday linkages. But although Stella Norman claimed she always had Wednesdays off, the FBI interviewed her employer who checked his records and said while that was normally true she had been paid for working Wednesday Aug 28 (seven days that week). As for Dannelly, Wed. Aug. 28 was one of her biweekly Wednesday paydays. Since that date works for both of these witnesses, since Sept. 25 is excluded, and since both of these witnesses appear credible, I say Oswald was in Austin Aug 28. LHO has relevant Austin address information in his address book related to that trip; LHO was engaged with New Orleans attorney Dean "my records of Oswald were lost in a burglary" Andrews about his Selective Service case in that time frame; and the case is known to have been on Oswald's mind, so it is not implausible that he would go to Austin in person about his case. Therefore neither the Dannelly and Stella Norman Austin witness accounts, no more than the Silvia Odio visit in Dallas, provide argument establishing negatively that Oswald did not go from Dallas to Houston the night of Sept. 25. I realize you have other arguments that Oswald did not go to Mexico City; I only mean here to show these ones are removed.

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9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I say Oswald was in Austin Aug 28

I assume you meant Sept 28... a Saturday.... would not be related to an Austin SSS visit... he was in Dallas and offices for business are closed... just like Mexico.

Odio sisters prove that Oswald as we knew him was there on Thursday the 27th...
There are reports of him in Dallas Sat the 28th at the Sports Drome...

Start in New Orleans... we are told that the thrifty Oswald would buy a round trip ticket since it was cheaper than 2, 1 ways... yet as u are reading, Major Green tells us the only 2 buses destined for Mexico would not work on the timeline... so they find a bus to Houston that kinda works...  this man literally has to buy a 1 way ticket 4 to 6 times to get there and back to Dallas...

At least that’s what the FBI’s evidence shows... after trying and ditching a number of alternatives... because the timing didn’t work.. bottom memo is a great example...   that and it’s provable that Oswald was not on any Flecha Rojas bus coming south... as he could never meet the 3:30 bus out of Monterrey leaving at 2pm from Laredo... it’s a 3-4 hr drive....

And since the Aussie girls say they took del Norte bus... they are lying about seeing Bowen and the MacFarlands...  Bowen traveled with a Companion?
 

one small tidbit... when Hoover wrote that the CIA double dealt him re Oswald’s trip to Mexico, it was Jan 14th... 1 week later at exec session it is brought up that Oswald was an FBI asset....  the FBI has no choice which is why so much of the documentation is from March-May ‘64.  Hope that addresses your concerns...

DJ

59f8f608e16cc_63-12-07FBIMexi124-10243-10008OSWALDfoundlistedonFlechaRojaspassengermanifest-BowenMcFarlandMumfordWinstonalllisted.thumb.jpg.a55f560f93cd1a15df350b89e46c9771.jpg652383252_CE2463CHAPMANTypedversionofFlechaRojasBaggagelist.jpg.5be8ad2551b2a7833ce6925921c99cf5.jpg

746383246_FBIreportthatFronteradoesnotworkforTECappointment-web.jpg.d2125f8e588ae4d6f2622422811d3ccf.jpg

 

 


 

 

 

 

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No David, I did mean Wednesday August 28, 1963 for Oswald in Austin (for reasons explained).

The way LHO could get from Silvia Odio's in Dallas to Houston the night of Wed. Sept 25 has nothing whatever to do with any bus schedules. All the talk about bus schedules to Houston that Oswald never took is entirely irrelevant to anything. That Marina said she thought Oswald had left New Orleans by bus is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Oswald arrived to Silvia Odio's place in Dallas in a car driven from New Orleans (according to what Silvia Odio was told by her visitors, whose physical appearance of greasy hair and unshaven noticed by Silvia agreed with their claim to have just arrived from New Orleans). Then Silvia Odio sees Oswald leaving her place in the same car driven by others. That is what is relevant. 

On reports of Oswald at the Sports Drome on Sept 28, are you sure about that? According to this FBI report of an interview of Malcom Price, the Sports Drome firing range did not open for business until October 26: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95643&relPageId=65&search=Malcom_Price. If the Sports Drome was not open for business until Oct 26, then it does not seem very likely Oswald would have been shooting there a month before it was open. None of the FBI interviews concerning the claims of Sports Drome sightings occur before Oct 26 that I can see. Surely some mistake?

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53 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Surely some mistake?

Hi Greg,   (Oswald did not get to Houston for a bus to Laredo the night of the 25th as I will show below)

The link does say “said the range was opened Oct 26” But that didn’t imply this was the first day opened...

Same man telling us about Oswald.... and that the “first time” He saw him was end of Sept....

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct? 
Mr. PRICE. That's right. The first time that I saw this person was in September, the last week--the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon that they opened the rifle range. 
Mr. LIEBELER. On the last Saturday of September? 
Mr. PRICE. Yes. 
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be September 28? 
Mr. PRICE. Yes. 

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow again? 
Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions--one was 2 weeks later and at turkey shoot. It was Sunday, though, it was on a Sunday. 
Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been in October sometime, then, is that right? 
Mr. PRICE. Yes, it would. 
Mr. LIEBELER. The last Saturday in September, which is the day you indicated was the first time you saw him was the 28th of September? 
Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the day they opened. They opened in the afternoon. 
Mr. LIEBELER. And 2 weeks later would have been the 12th of October, and the Sunday following would be the 13th of October; is that right? 
Mr. PRICE. Yes, somewhere around there. They had a turkey shoot and I went down to participate in a turkey shoot and he was sitting in Booth 6 or 8 and was firing on a 100-yard line with a heavy bore rifle and I didn't talk to him then, but the third time that I saw him there I did.

 

According to the source you quoted, Price says they open for business Sept 28th...  

Consider this timeline....

The FBI has no idea where he is on 9/24... and he doesn’t take a bus on the 25th... 
He leaves with 2 men Going first to Austin, then Dallas.  It’s a 10 hr drive to Austin...

After driving all night, they arrive in Austin, hit a “safe” house, and Oswald goes to SSS at 1pm

The 25th, a Wednesday, they stay in Austin... on the 26th Oswald has his coffee and leaves his impression (L &B Day testified as friends of Stella that they remember him too.. they said he kept looking into the kitchen...)  It is possible that only 1 man drove with Oswald and they picked the other man up in Austin...

Odio remembers it being Thursday as the call which followed occurred after she got home from work...

Austin to Dallas is only 5 hours... more than enough time to do whatever work he was doing and be at her door that evening...  

Other evidence comes from Father Machann, and the Janet Leigh event on 9/27.

It all leads to the Odio visit on the 26th.   There were numerous locations in and around Dallas where Oswald could have stayed and worked with his group doing his FBI job... until the following weekend.... when we find the return bus trip even more poorly conceived than the way down...

I went back and reread the 8/28 bit...   in late August Oswald is with Ferrie and Shaw in Jackson and Clinton.... and then Houston... I don’t see how that has to do with this trip...

The bus trip was a concoction to CYA the FBI....

The real deal is that Oswald was an informant for the FBI, or believed he was...and was infiltrating Cuban groups... The CIA simply boxed Hoover into doing its bidding...  as was the case in many areas...

Dj



 

 

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Well David you are right Malcom Price does SAY Sept. 26 followed by the turkey shoot a couple of weeks later, but isn't that a simple matter of he is just confused on the date? All other witnesses have that turkey shoot in November, including Malcom Price himself later in his same testimony. 

 

Mr. Liebeler: And 2 weeks later would have been the 12th of October, and the Sunday following would be the 13th of October; is that right?

Mr. Price: Yes, somewhere around there. They had a turkey shoot and I went down to participate in a turkey shoot ...

[...]

Mr. Liebeler: When was the next time you saw him, the third time?

Mr. Price: Well, I don't remember just exactly when it was, but it was--it could be anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks later--I don't remember exactly, but it was on a Sunday, Sunday was the only time I went down there after that in a good while.

[...]

Mr. Liebeler: Let's see if we can establish the date of he last time that you saw this man at the rifle range. Do you recall that the President was assassinated on Friday, November 22? Can you tell us approximately how long prior to the assassination this time was that you saw the man?

Mr. Price: The last time I saw him was a week before Thanksgiving; Sunday before.

Mr. Liebeler: The Sunday before Thanksgiving--that's the last time you saw him at a rifle range?

Mr. Price: That's the last time that I was down at the rifle range--the last time I swent there until after, oh, a month or so after the assassination.

Mr. Liebeler: You mean it was the Sunday immediately preceding Thanksgiving?

Mr. Price: That's right; I was down there for the turkey shoot we had.

Mr. Liebeler: You saw him at the rifle range that day?

Mr. Price. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler: Well, the last Sunday before Thanksgiving was after the assassination.

Mr. Price: It was after?

Mr. Liebeler: Yes; and you saw this man at the rifle range, you saw Oswald at the rifle range after the assassination?

Mr. Price: I believe I did, because that twas the last time that I went down there.

Mr. Liebeler: And the time you saw him the last time and looked through the scrope was the last time you were down at the rifle range?

Mr.Price: Yes; that was the last day I was down there.

Mr. Liebeler: What makes you say it was the Sunday preceding Thanksgiving, are you sure about that?

Mr. Price: Well, I'm not exactly positive but it was getting close to Thanksgiving because I was trying to get a turkey.

Mr. Liebeler: Do you remember whether you saw him after the assassination?

Mr. Price: No.

Mr. Liebeler: You are not sure one way or the other?

Mr. Price: I know I haven't seen him after the assassination, but it was before this assassination--I was down there the last time and I was thinking it was a week before Thanksgiving, but anyhow, it was before the assassination, the Sunday before, but they were holding a turkey shoot.

Mr. Liebeler: The Sunday before the assassination would have been the 17th--that would have been two Sundays before Thanksgiving.

Mr. Price: Well, it might be right--that's been so long ago--I'm not sure about the dates, I don't remember dates too well.

[...]

Mr. Price: Well, I try to help all I can. I don't remember dates too well--it's been quite some time.

 

Are you sure it was Oswald at the Sports Dome sightings? The man witnesses thought had looked like Oswald there drove his own car, had a different kind of rifle than Oswald with a modified stock and a leather gun case, had a pair of binoculars with him, was a skilled accurate shooter, and the sightings took place at times that Ruth Paine testified that Oswald, who had no car nor access to one, was with her and Marina at her house in Irving those entire weekends and could not have been at the Sports Dome location for those periods of time. Mrs. Slack at the Sports Dome said the man had fuller and more hair than photos of Oswald. The man at the Sports Dome never claimed to be Oswald nor is there any reason to suppose he was impersonating anyone. There are proven cases of people who mistakenly thought they saw Oswald but actually saw Jack Ruby's employee Larry Crafard: Don Stuart and the electronics store; Mary Lawrence at the Lucas B & B Restaurant. Are you confident it was really Oswald at the Sports Dome instead of a mistaken identification? I think the Sports Dome were mistaken identifications of someone who resembled Oswald but was not him. 

From a certain angle Jeb Bush, former governor of Florida, was the spitting image of my brother. We had a lot of fun over that because it was so striking. These things happen.

As for why the man at the Sports Dome never talked much to any of the others there or socialized, and never was seen showing up shooting there again after the assassination, I don't know if that is very odd but it does seem a little odd ... Larry Crafard split town in a hurry immediately after the assassination for unknown reason, just before his boss Ruby killed Oswald ... is it possible that was Larry Crafard at the Sports Dome? But hard to know at this point. 

Edited by Greg Doudna
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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2020 at 8:24 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Are you sure it was Oswald at the Sports Dome sightings?

No Greg, I'm not "sure"...   given what I know of the bus trips and Mexico city days... I do know our man Oswald was not down there..

(Maybe I'm wrong but aren't there usually a few weekends for Turkey Shoots?)  IDK.

and While it very well may have been an imposter, we know that our Oswald was not in Mexico on Sept 28th... but had just recently been in Dallas...

Could this Oswald be the one driving all over south Texas with a wife and 2 babies in tow looking for a radio job that week?  the entire week he is supposedly in Mexico and traveling from Mexico...  (Google: Oswald Alice TX)

It would make more sense that the Sports Drome Oswalds were all the same person, Lee possibly or Igor Vaganov (Google him if you really want to go down the rabbit hole)

Here are some names and faces of those considered possible impostors depending on the circumstance...  This image represents an enormous amount of history related to LHO and the many strange happenings in Dallas/Ft. Worth/Oak Cliff.

1551061927_manylookalikes.thumb.jpg.9a7ecb9c98c2ab6cc62fd1bc947322bf.jpg

And now one final leap into the abyss...  Ferenc NAGY of Permindex fame asks the CIA if Permindex can be of help (part of the World Trade Org which brings SHAW into the game at the NOITM)  At the time of the assassination, NAGY is living at 600 Ft Worth Ave...  if you take N Beckley north almost to the end and turn left... he's right there.

NAGY was a cleared contact for the CIA's International Organizations Div with file #201-11893...   NAGY and VAGANOV are in Dallas, in Oak Cliff on Nov 22....
Steve Wilson next to Harvey is also an amazing story worth knowing about....  as well as H. LEE in room O at Beckley...

You can see the number of silken threads going into this spider's web.  Take the time to learn about these people and your understanding of the possibilities for who did what will drastically increase.

I hope this helps with what was going on out there in '63...  a mindset - I dare say which is virtually impossible to replicate in one's own 2020 mind's eye....

DJ

 

271966446_vaganovwithbothoswalds.jpg.985aea2eb783aef355a2026bf16174b4.jpg

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David--you speak as if the only two alternatives are it was Oswald or an imposter--why? If the Sports Drome person had claimed to be named Oswald, or if he had done anything to distinctively identify himself as Oswald, or given any sign to anyone of wanting to be identified as Oswald, even in retrospect, that would be a different matter. Then one would be looking at either/or "Oswald or impersonator". But since none of those factors are the case in any of the Sports Drome claims, why is not a third alternative on your map for consideration: somebody who was neither Oswald nor an imposter, just misidentified? Why the desire to leap for X-Files' explanations when routine and mundane explanations are just simpler?

You're familiar with how CIA in Mexico City sent up a picture of what it said was a photo of Oswald in Mexico City. You've seen the photo, and of course it is not Oswald. FBI showed that photo to Marguerite Oswald, who promptly and firmly identified it as Jack Ruby, whom she had just seen on television. 

Do you consider that evidence that the man in that photo was an imposter impersonating Jack Ruby in Mexico City? Or that there was an elaborate impersonation project operated by CIA of multiple Jack Rubys? Of course not. It was not Jack Ruby nor was it anyone pretending to be Jack Ruby, even though the man in the photo has a similar body type and thinning black hair on top. Marguerite was simply mistaken. No X-Files impersonations of Jack Ruby, etc. required. There was no one scripting Marguerite to say that behind the scenes, no creation of a legend, no two Jack Ruby theories, etc and etc. She just got it wrong, nothing more complicated than that.

So I am afraid you and I may not be quite seeing the same world in some ways, even while looking at the same data.

I finished your Part 3 of the Mexico City series. It seems the argument is proposing large-scale fabrications of material evidences and false witness testimonies throughout the course of the Oswald Mexico City trip which are quite elaborate and complicated, combined with a starting premise of the Warren Commission argument that the Silvia Odio Oswald visit is incompatible with an Oswald trip to Mexico City on timeline grounds. You insist the Silvia Odio visit occurred where Warren Commission fixed it, on Thu Sept 26 or Fri Sept 27, instead of as Silvia Odio later told Gaeton Fonzi, that she all along did not know the exact day of the week for sure and had told the FBI that but the Warren Commission had sort of decided her uncertainty for her on that detail. A Silvia Odio visit on Wed Sept 25 leaves 5.5 hours of timeline before the Houston bus leaves at 2:35 am later than night, adequate time for the 3.5 hour driving time needed for Dallas to Houston of the Oswald whom Silvia Odio last saw ca. 9 pm that evening leaving in a car with two other men. Of course that is not evidence that Oswald did go to Houston that evening. But it removes the linchpin premise claim of WC and your argument that it is excluded because impossible.

But speaking of the Mexico City trip, I would like to ask you two questions:

(1) The CIA photo of "Oswald" in Mexico City--the one that is not a photo of Oswald (the one Marguerite mistakenly thought was a photo of Ruby)--do you think that was a photo of whoever was claiming to be Oswald at the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy in Mexico City? 

and

(2) As you reconstruct the many witnesses' testimony being fabricated to support the Oswald Mexico city impersonations, do you include Oswald himself as one of those witnesses fabricating testimony falsely putting himself in Mexico City, i.e. witting to the impersonation of himself as you see it? I refer to a handwritten document purporting to be written by Oswald which refers to himself as having gone to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. 100% of handwriting experts say that is genuine Oswald handwriting. Do you think that was forged, against 100% of expert testimony? I'm a little concerned that this is going in directions of just arbitrary and implausibly large-scale fabrications of evidence for not soundly justified reasons.

If it is genuine Oswald handwriting (and Oswald is aware of what he wrote in that handwritten document), would that mean Oswald was cooperating in fabricating the story of his impersonator for that trip? But if Oswald was being scripted to cooperate in his own impersonation, might it not be simpler to just have Oswald do the impersonation personally, i.e. go to Mexico City and be his own impersonator himself? 🙂 I appreciate your good cheer David, thanks--

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4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

David--you speak as if the only two alternatives are it was Oswald or an imposter--why? If the Sports Drome person had claimed to be named Oswald, or if he had done anything to distinctively identify himself as Oswald, or given any sign to anyone of wanting to be identified as Oswald, even in retrospect, that would be a different matter. Then one would be looking at either/or "Oswald or impersonator". But since none of those factors are the case in any of the Sports Drome claims, why is not a third alternative on your map for consideration: somebody who was neither Oswald nor an imposter, just misidentified? Why the desire to leap for X-Files' explanations when routine and mundane explanations are just simpler?

"x-files explanations"  you have such a fertile mind....  you seem to forget that a conspiracy to kill the president and blame a patsy was in the works... look at what Oswald had been doing all thru the summer of 63....  and you find it out of left field that someone posing as Oswald wouldn't leave the impression he was practicing and was very good with a scoped rifle....   all thru Oct and Nov 1963?  Well then I truly have no idea what you're doing on these pages then Greg...

You may be forgetting that this man brought attention to himself by purposefully shooting other's targets? Numerous witnesses support the contention he was very similar to the man Ruby killed...

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct?
Mr. PRICE. That's right. The first time that I saw this person was in September, the last week--the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon that they opened the rifle range.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the last Saturday of September?
Mr. PRICE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be September 28?
Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who commented on the telescope?

Mr. PRICE. Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Commented to you?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "It's one of the clearest telescopes that I have ever seen---one of the brightest." He said, "It's a Japanese scope and I gave $18 for it."
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he paid $18 for it?
Mr. PRICE. Yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a 4-power telescope and he said it was mounted on Redfield mounts. You see, they make mounts for several different guns, but I don't know one mount from another myself. I just took his word for it that it was a Redfield mount, but I looked through the scope and it was very clear. It was very bright and we compared it with two scopes that Mr. Slack had on his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth 7--I don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different American-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. You could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with it.

Still think he didn't want to be identified?

You're familiar with how CIA in Mexico City sent up a picture of what it said was a photo of Oswald in Mexico City. You've seen the photo, and of course it is not Oswald. FBI showed that photo to Marguerite Oswald, who promptly and firmly identified it as Jack Ruby, whom she had just seen on television. 

Do you consider that evidence that the man in that photo was an imposter impersonating Jack Ruby in Mexico City? Or that there was an elaborate impersonation project operated by CIA of multiple Jack Rubys? Of course not. It was not Jack Ruby nor was it anyone pretending to be Jack Ruby, even though the man in the photo has a similar body type and thinning black hair on top. Marguerite was simply mistaken. No X-Files impersonations of Jack Ruby, etc. required. There was no one scripting Marguerite to say that behind the scenes, no creation of a legend, no two Jack Ruby theories, etc and etc. She just got it wrong, nothing more complicated than that.

That a very interesting recap of the Odum/Marge encounter related to the Mystery Man photo he showed her....  docid-32352812 is a memo describing the incident... and below is the Odum Exhibit hidden at the end of ODIO Ex 1... this had little to Marge and more to do with diverting attention away from what was going on in Mexico...

So I am afraid you and I may not be quite seeing the same world in some ways, even while looking at the same data.

We see the same data yet if seems you stop short in finding out about the context of the event...   
ODUM AFFIDAVIT:  
I desired to show this photograph to Marina Oswald in an attempt to identify the individual portrayed in the photograph and to determine if he was an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I finished your Part 3 of the Mexico City series. It seems the argument is proposing large-scale fabrications of material evidences and false witness testimonies throughout the course of the Oswald Mexico City trip which are quite elaborate and complicated, combined with a starting premise of the Warren Commission argument that the Silvia Odio Oswald visit is incompatible with an Oswald trip to Mexico City on timeline grounds. You insist the Silvia Odio visit occurred where Warren Commission fixed it, on Thu Sept 26 or Fri Sept 27, instead of as Silvia Odio later told Gaeton Fonzi, that she all along did not know the exact day of the week for sure and had told the FBI that but the Warren Commission had sort of decided her uncertainty for her on that detail. A Silvia Odio visit on Wed Sept 25 leaves 5.5 hours of timeline before the Houston bus leaves at 2:35 am later than night, adequate time for the 3.5 hour driving time needed for Dallas to Houston of the Oswald whom Silvia Odio last saw ca. 9 pm that evening leaving in a car with two other men. Of course that is not evidence that Oswald did go to Houston that evening. But it removes the linchpin premise claim of WC and your argument that it is excluded because impossible.

But speaking of the Mexico City trip, I would like to ask you two questions:

(1) The CIA photo of "Oswald" in Mexico City--the one that is not a photo of Oswald (the one Marguerite mistakenly thought was a photo of Ruby)--do you think that was a photo of whoever was claiming to be Oswald at the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy in Mexico City? 

You see Greg, I truly enjoy discussing this with interested and curious members.  That you are unaware of the backstory related to that photo, Anne Goodpasture, and the dates involved... let alone everything I've written and posted about the impostor who was there...  No photos were taken on Oct 1 at all...  Goodpasture lied... (below, RIGGS is Goodpasture and to the right is Goodpasture admitting it over a copy of the photo logs)
Letter from Win Scott to J.C. King of 22 Nov 1963. This letter notes an earlier conversation and King's permission for Scott to send photos of "a certain person who is known to you."

and

(2) As you reconstruct the many witnesses' testimony being fabricated to support the Oswald Mexico city impersonations, do you include Oswald himself as one of those witnesses fabricating testimony falsely putting himself in Mexico City, i.e. witting to the impersonation of himself as you see it? I refer to a handwritten document purporting to be written by Oswald which refers to himself as having gone to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. 100% of handwriting experts say that is genuine Oswald handwriting. Do you think that was forged, against 100% of expert testimony? I'm a little concerned that this is going in directions of just arbitrary and implausibly large-scale fabrications of evidence for not soundly justified reasons.

For such a new person to the Forum you have what looks to me like the "tip of the iceberg knowledge" in a few areas of the case which somehow allows you to jump at me after having put my work out for all to see for over 20 years...  and making a lot of mistakes.

Do YOU think any of the "expert testimony" was influenced by the needs of the FBI, CIA and the rest of the US Govt..?. do YOU have any idea what a sham the HSCA's handwriting analysis was? (btw - you can search for that here too... Jimmy D will fill you in on that charade.)

You don't find it amazing how the FBI has him getting to each place he must be just as he needs to get there?  You sensing that pattern at all?  Especially on 11/22

Anyway, this is the postmark on the NOV 9th dated letter Paine claims to have typed as she read the handwritten version.. says Nov 2nd not the 12th...  have you seen the handwritten version Greg?
Have you done any analysis on it?  if so, please share as I've spent years on these things and the edges are still fuzzy....  which experts are you referring to as the HSCA did not look at this letter but a photo-mechanical halftone...  Item #49 in HCSA's Vol 8.  wait till you see it... then tell me "experts" could tell from that....


1442022622_PostmarkonRuthPaineTypedletterofOswaldtoRussianEmbassyinDC-no1there-web.thumb.jpg.2e758a043798f2ccbeda561155686879.jpg
You are now talking about the infamous Nov 9th letter mailed Nov 2nd...  the typewriter letter...  on that one I'll let you do some searching yourself...  Try the Search function at the top right or Google Paine typewriter letter...  as usual you are only seeing the tip of the berg.... the same key phrases and timelines are used in the letter as in the entire bogus journey.  If Oswald did write it, given what Hoover knew wouldn't it make sense to have him say the same things his bosses were saying... 

Mr. JENNER - By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.
Mrs. PAINE - That is the document; yes.

Remember that all thru Nov the FBI assets looked for any sign of Oswald having been there...  

Even his own asset OCHOA at Gobernacion did not say they had any info on the man until it became time to NEED the evidence... which on 11/22 was confiscated from all 4 bus lines in, Mex City, Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo

What a surprise, right?

 

If it is genuine Oswald handwriting (and Oswald is aware of what he wrote in that handwritten document), would that mean Oswald was cooperating in fabricating the story of his impersonator for that trip? But if Oswald was being scripted to cooperate in his own impersonation, might it not be simpler to just have Oswald do the impersonation personally, i.e. go to Mexico City and be his own impersonator himself? 🙂 I appreciate your good cheer David, thanks--

As you've read I hope, if the point was to leave evidence of an innocent trip to Mexico and back, Oswald himself could have easily accomplished that...  yet none of that happens...

Furthermore, Hoover himself lets on that the Mexico City charade was a CIA double-dealing, again.

and if I come off gruff above I hadn't yet reached you nice closing remarks...  that is not to say you still wouldn't benefit from some time reading up on that which you want to ask questions about...  more than likely they've been addressed right here on this forum...  probably even with a comment or two from me.... in addition to the amazing cast of contributors you have assembled in one place...

My whole goal has been to illuminate the lie using the tools they already gave us....  Mexico remains one of the greatest lies wrapped into this thing as it kept the FBI at bay while misleading the ONI...  STATE (Amb Mann) was on the CIA's side on this one.... pushing Castro all along.

I hope you take me up on some of the research challenges I threw down... as well as try and find some of the newer things being discovered and see what is said about them...

Great, great contributors here...   Enjoy
DJ

 

img_1137_711_200.jpg1544174973_63-10-02Russ104-10413-10426LOGFILM14420EAXP-October2ndlogshowingphotoofMysteryman.jpg.034c88132ffa860f6e9cf56ed8121061.jpg

1410616835_63-11-23GoodpastureasRIGGSsays9-28tapealreadyerasedandsamemanIDasOswaldthereonOct4.thumb.jpg.2687b83f2568c09e874f9889e3ff9be1.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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  • 4 weeks later...

There has been a lot of discussion about the operation of LIENVOY at the time the CIA places Oswald in view of the equipment.

From a Kemp scan of Malcolm sourced fitness reports we learn about the man in charge of the LIENVOY equipment...

This fits nicely into the theory that contemporaneous reporting related to Mexico City will not mention Oswald for he wasn't there...

 

99395732_LIENVOYwasalwaysoperational.jpg.0ee61493c2bd03f7eef1419742de36ec.jpg

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David,

Why do you think the two Cubans and the person introduced to her as Leon, part company after leaving Sylvia Odio's?

Up to that point, the trio had been traveling together, and Leopoldo told Sylvia that"we" are going on a trip, and that "we" will come back and visit you again when "we" return.

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.
They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going?

 

Mrs. ODIO. And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas.

Steve Thomas

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On 8/2/2020 at 7:25 PM, Greg Doudna said:

David--you speak as if the only two alternatives are it was Oswald or an imposter--why? If the Sports Drome person had claimed to be named Oswald, or if he had done anything to distinctively identify himself as Oswald, or given any sign to anyone of wanting to be identified as Oswald, even in retrospect, that would be a different matter. Then one would be looking at either/or "Oswald or impersonator". But since none of those factors are the case in any of the Sports Drome claims, why is not a third alternative on your map for consideration: somebody who was neither Oswald nor an imposter, just misidentified? Why the desire to leap for X-Files' explanations when routine and mundane explanations are just simpler?

You're familiar with how CIA in Mexico City sent up a picture of what it said was a photo of Oswald in Mexico City. You've seen the photo, and of course it is not Oswald. FBI showed that photo to Marguerite Oswald, who promptly and firmly identified it as Jack Ruby, whom she had just seen on television. 

Do you consider that evidence that the man in that photo was an imposter impersonating Jack Ruby in Mexico City? Or that there was an elaborate impersonation project operated by CIA of multiple Jack Rubys? Of course not. It was not Jack Ruby nor was it anyone pretending to be Jack Ruby, even though the man in the photo has a similar body type and thinning black hair on top. Marguerite was simply mistaken. No X-Files impersonations of Jack Ruby, etc. required. There was no one scripting Marguerite to say that behind the scenes, no creation of a legend, no two Jack Ruby theories, etc and etc. She just got it wrong, nothing more complicated than that.

So I am afraid you and I may not be quite seeing the same world in some ways, even while looking at the same data.

I finished your Part 3 of the Mexico City series. It seems the argument is proposing large-scale fabrications of material evidences and false witness testimonies throughout the course of the Oswald Mexico City trip which are quite elaborate and complicated, combined with a starting premise of the Warren Commission argument that the Silvia Odio Oswald visit is incompatible with an Oswald trip to Mexico City on timeline grounds. You insist the Silvia Odio visit occurred where Warren Commission fixed it, on Thu Sept 26 or Fri Sept 27, instead of as Silvia Odio later told Gaeton Fonzi, that she all along did not know the exact day of the week for sure and had told the FBI that but the Warren Commission had sort of decided her uncertainty for her on that detail. A Silvia Odio visit on Wed Sept 25 leaves 5.5 hours of timeline before the Houston bus leaves at 2:35 am later than night, adequate time for the 3.5 hour driving time needed for Dallas to Houston of the Oswald whom Silvia Odio last saw ca. 9 pm that evening leaving in a car with two other men. Of course that is not evidence that Oswald did go to Houston that evening. But it removes the linchpin premise claim of WC and your argument that it is excluded because impossible.

But speaking of the Mexico City trip, I would like to ask you two questions:

(1) The CIA photo of "Oswald" in Mexico City--the one that is not a photo of Oswald (the one Marguerite mistakenly thought was a photo of Ruby)--do you think that was a photo of whoever was claiming to be Oswald at the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy in Mexico City? 

and

(2) As you reconstruct the many witnesses' testimony being fabricated to support the Oswald Mexico city impersonations, do you include Oswald himself as one of those witnesses fabricating testimony falsely putting himself in Mexico City, i.e. witting to the impersonation of himself as you see it? I refer to a handwritten document purporting to be written by Oswald which refers to himself as having gone to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. 100% of handwriting experts say that is genuine Oswald handwriting. Do you think that was forged, against 100% of expert testimony? I'm a little concerned that this is going in directions of just arbitrary and implausibly large-scale fabrications of evidence for not soundly justified reasons.

If it is genuine Oswald handwriting (and Oswald is aware of what he wrote in that handwritten document), would that mean Oswald was cooperating in fabricating the story of his impersonator for that trip? But if Oswald was being scripted to cooperate in his own impersonation, might it not be simpler to just have Oswald do the impersonation personally, i.e. go to Mexico City and be his own impersonator himself? 🙂 I appreciate your good cheer David, thanks--

 

Greg,

Another thing supporting the notion Oswald didn't go to Mexico City is the fact that both Cuban consulate employees who dealt with the supposed Oswald said that that he didn't look like the Oswald shot by Ruby. These were Silvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue, who described the man as having short blond hair and being 5’ 6” tall. An imposter who some of us believe was a Nikolai Leonov look-alike, Leonov being a Russian diplomat and KGB officer. Leonov's photo was among the ones taken at the Russian consulate by the CIA and handed over to the FBI. Some of us call him the Blond Oswald.

BTW, the Cuban JFKA intelligence report, released around the time of the HSCA, stated that the "Oswald" that visited the Cuban consulate was an imposter.

There really is no reliable evidence that Oswald went to Mexico City.
 

 

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