Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

On 8/26/2020 at 8:43 AM, David Josephs said:

There has been a lot of discussion about the operation of LIENVOY at the time the CIA places Oswald in view of the equipment.

From a Kemp scan of Malcolm sourced fitness reports we learn about the man in charge of the LIENVOY equipment...

This fits nicely into the theory that contemporaneous reporting related to Mexico City will not mention Oswald for he wasn't there...

 

99395732_LIENVOYwasalwaysoperational.jpg.0ee61493c2bd03f7eef1419742de36ec.jpg

 

This document should be attached to any essay at K&K that documents or analyses the Mexico City phone calls.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 34
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

21 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Why do you think the two Cubans and the person introduced to her as Leon, part company after leaving Sylvia Odio's?

 

Hi Steve...  Is this a question from a conclusion I offered, something you know for a fact, or just a general Q?  as to "parting company" I don't get that impression.

With the three together at that exact moment, one would think that they'd attend meetings focused on these issues with other Cubans...  Harlendale?
It would also be in the CIA's interest to have him incommunicado during their Mexico City "double-dealing", only to emerge in Dallas on the 3rd - just in time to stay at the Y near FBI HQ on Ervay.  (The look on Hoover's face when he first reads the CIA places Oswald in Mexico at that same time must have been precious)

Walthers places these men at Harlandale a few months before the assassination...  This and the few locations around Beckley would make sense
plus he could not leave record of where he stayed during that week... or if he did it's gone in favor of MC evidence.  If the Conspiracy angle worked, the CIA is in position to capitalize whichever way it goes.

Re-reading the testimony it sounds to me that the repetition of "the trip" they would be taking was precursor set-up for the CIA's Mexico City charade...(he supposedly shows up the morning of the 27th in Mexico - impossible by car)  the CUBANS with whom Oswald was traveling were more likely tied to CIA than FBI - it would be in their collective best interest to set up the patsy and then have them on a MC TRIP that never happens yet is one where the CIA Tap evidence transcript can serve as the totality of the evidence without worry of backtalk.  Ozzie was an FBI asset infiltrating different groups as Bannister would have him....  Hoover knew he was trapped.

Near the bottom of this post is yet another FBI report denying Oswald in Mexico...  again, many left in the record IMHO, as Hoover's way of getting back at the CIA... 

What suggests to you they went their separate ways?  and why?

More below...

1170513581_3128HarlendalewhereCubansstayedinDallaspriortoassassinationandleftdayafter-Oswaldmayhaveinformedonthem.thumb.jpg.47d1c2df0b2f560c53cfa6031dc42e9a.jpg

 

Reading this from Price... as I wrote to Greg...  I'm not sure this is our Harvey Lee Oswald doing that shooting... yet Price, Slack and Davis claim the same man returns a number of times....
 

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did this man fire the rifle himself?
Mr. PRICE. He fired three shots after I had got it set to where I could fire a pattern, with three shots in a bull's eye. I turned it over to him and I said, "Now, I'm satisfied with it, you try it."
And, he fired three shots and he scored bull's eye with all three--a very tight pattern and he said, "Well, I am completely satisfied."

 

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversation with this fellow at that time?
Mr. PRICE. No, that was all. It was rather abrupt. He didn't talk too much, and I was kind of surprised that he didn't fire the rifle more. He just fired the three shots and he said, "Well, that's good enough," and he got up and left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the shell casings lying there at the range or did he take them with him?
Mr. PRICE. No, he took them with him--he picked them all up after the rifle was fired and took the shell casings along with him.

hmmmm... you think they were 3 6.5mm shells (might need those later)... or 7.35mm shells...  :P

====

Another recent bit of treasure from Malcolm thru Bart:  by the 29th the FBI had already interviewed Marina who told them she had no idea about Oswald going to Mexico... that story changed of course....  but this report confirms the earliest info about what they claimed to not know

image.png.03aef714ce5f0e10fa97d8c1b7d2f90a.png

New Orleans thru Houston up thru Austin to Dallas....    his driving himself to the Sports Drome and leaving that trail of evidence  (Oct 4th not Nov) would suggest this Oswald, Harvey Lee - knows what's up and is helping set the stage.  Would our Oswald do that thinking he was helping set Cuba up at some point... or someone else... (Lee Harvey is a decent possibility here)...  IDK.     What is important is that he leaves an impression of the ITALIAN rifle and of a great shot...  but then returns when we know Harvey Lee is in Irving with his family...   Vaganov? Lee Harvey? Crawford? Wayne? Masen is a decent thought as well... I believe it was Ellsworth who thought Masen was Oswald....

5a280e6666cfe_oswaldlookalikesVallee-Craford-Vaganov-Lee.thumb.jpg.78bbf5109b2367a64f65ac94fc53b6b0.jpg465258136_OswaldandMasen-EvicafeelsElsworthistalkingaboutMASENandnotOrcaberrio.jpg.7d54bf0aa72298f1c8e21d2fa9db1f3d.jpg

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I believe it was Dick Russell who thought Masen was a dead ringer for Oswald (after personally interviewing him) and wrote that in his book...I could never see that at all, and was shocked when I first saw Masen's actual photo after some tireless researchers finally tracked it down. 

For a couple of options - and what I feel are closer - alternatives to folks who could have impersonated Oswald at one point or the other, check my web page at www.larry-hancock.com   Once there take a look at the contents of Someone Would Have Talked (menu at bottom of home page and look in the photo areas for the section referenced as "Mistaken Identity".   Steve Wilson and William Seymour could probably have pulled it off.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

Hi Steve...  Is this a question from a conclusion I offered, something you know for a fact, or just a general Q?  as to "parting company" I don't get that impression.

With the three together at that exact moment, one would think that they'd attend meetings focused on these issues with other Cubans...  Harlendale?
It would also be in the CIA's interest to have him incommunicado during their Mexico City "double-dealing", only to emerge in Dallas on the 3rd - just in time to stay at the Y near FBI HQ on Ervay.  (The look on Hoover's face when he first reads the CIA places Oswald in Mexico at that same time must have been precious)

Walthers places these men at Harlandale a few months before the assassination...  This and the few locations around Beckley would make sense
plus he could not leave record of where he stayed during that week... or if he did it's gone in favor of MC evidence.  If the Conspiracy angle worked, the CIA is in position to capitalize whichever way it goes.

Re-reading the testimony it sounds to me that the repetition of "the trip" they would be taking was precursor set-up for the CIA's Mexico City charade...(he supposedly shows up the morning of the 27th in Mexico - impossible by car)  the CUBANS with whom Oswald was traveling were more likely tied to CIA than FBI - it would be in their collective best interest to set up the patsy and then have them on a MC TRIP that never happens yet is one where the CIA Tap evidence transcript can serve as the totality of the evidence without worry of backtalk.  Ozzie was an FBI asset infiltrating different groups as Bannister would have him....  Hoover knew he was trapped.

Near the bottom of this post is yet another FBI report denying Oswald in Mexico...  again, many left in the record IMHO, as Hoover's way of getting back at the CIA... 

What suggests to you they went their separate ways?  and why?

More below...

1170513581_3128HarlendalewhereCubansstayedinDallaspriortoassassinationandleftdayafter-Oswaldmayhaveinformedonthem.thumb.jpg.47d1c2df0b2f560c53cfa6031dc42e9a.jpg

David,

The bit about parting company was just a general question on my part. Whether Oswald went to Mexico, or stayed in Texas traveling around, I just don't remember him being described as being in the company of two guys who fit the description Sylvia Odio described.

Although, in the Sports Drome incidents Floyd Davis and Price talked about another guy at the Sports Drome - a big guy with a beard. They didn't know if he and Oswald were together or not.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/davis_f.htm

Mr. DAVIS. There was a fellow with a black beard in that booth No. 7, at the same time. I remember him because he was outstanding, you know, and I went to these fellows in booth No. 8, and was giving them heck about shooting at the wrong target. And this other fellow, I remember him because he wouldn't say anything to me. I tried to speak to him two or three different occasions, because he had a lot of guns, and I thought he would be a good customer.
Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow with the beard?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was how tall, approximately?
Mr. DAVIS. He was over 6 feet and he weighed a good 250 pounds. A big bruiser.

I give a lot of credence to the Alice, Texas sighting, and I don't remember any Cubans being mentioned there.

 

As far as Harlendale, those Cubans were SNFE, and Odio's people were JURE. They didn't mix very much.

Among the Miscellaneous CIA Series, there is an unauthored FBI Report of the various anti-Castro groups in Dallas: JURE, 30th of November, Alpha 66-SNFE, etc.

REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE

NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070 Spr

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726&relPageId=2

On pages 4 through 6 of that Report, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro furnished a list of the present officers of SNFE.

I believe that those were the people that Walthers' source saw.

Steve Thomas

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve Wilson and William Seymour could probably have pulled it off.

Agreed...  So, if he wasn't in Mexico or at Odio or in New Orleans...  he was driving all around south Texas interviewing at radio stations with Marina a real child and a baby?

And since so few people would ever see any of these two together, the look IMO just needed to be close...  (Harvey Lee had quite a thing for the rolled up sleeves and is described that way often)

To me that Wayne guy and Vaganov are just as easily mistaken for Oswald...  Vaganov even moreso... and then the strange details of his Nov 1963.

Anyway... Cheers Larry - always good to hear from you.  Now imagine Ozzie with 3 days beard growth... and we almost have Seymour.   Amazing.
DJ

Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?
Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

 

FWIW, my understanding is that Wilson had something to do with the "alternate" BYP in position 133-C, the GHOST, and the same as Det. Brown on the 29th. (Below)

Except when you paste Ozzie back in... it don't work.

133962474_Image3-Oswald-BYP-ghost-COPY-misalignment.thumb.jpg.034f024f272fe5918cce510699899dd1.jpg 

 

And this would be using the fence as the stationary anchor

Skewed-GHOST-image-used-to-put-Oswald-into-the-BYPs--smaller.gif.25fe87b2ac0037cd6a054b4f3efe7c5d.gif

Backyard5.jpg.835edf8edc8e2efcf6d8438a2b349a2a.jpg

1775729007_OswaldandWilson.jpg.0ba019e31bf4a5d61be0069512ad62ab.jpg

341525940_Seymourlookslikeoswald.jpg.944b7c7b5f8bf443aaaba93ba12f8f15.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070 Spr

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726&relPageId=2

On pages 4 through 6 of that Report, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro furnished a list of the present officers of SNFE.

I believe that those were the people that Walthers' source saw.

Steve Thomas

I believe you are correct.   This is along the lines of the competing newspapers in the photo and how one person would not be reading both of those...

What I found interesting and surprising is an HSCA run down of who Leopoldo might have been... by checking everyone they know with a real name LEOPOLDO... knowing it was a war name instead... and then checking on the Leopoldo war name....     here it is...

Thanks again for the clarification

DJ

 

78-07-15 GUESSES AT WHO - LEOPOLDO VISITING ODIO - WAS 104-10213-10102.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites

David this is a very interesting document find you bring out, and certainly adds weight to the plausibility that the Mexico City Soviet "Oswald" embassy phone calls could have been voice impersonated, adding to the point already noted of the language issue. Do you have a link or reference to this document? Any idea what the context was of it, or if the "fabricat[ion] on tape phoney conversation of Cuban ambassador for insertion Lienvoy mechanism" was carried out?

On 8/26/2020 at 7:45 AM, David Josephs said:

Another great find is this CIA memo outlining how phone conversations would be FAKED - specifically a call from Cuban Ambassador 

...and this is in January 1962.....

 

1112948456_62-01-02MXtoDirPlantoFABRICATECUBANAMBCALLforLIENVOYMECHANISMandtoTURNaMEXICANCITIZENworkingatConsulate.thumb.jpg.cec7ed89d1cded7e46fe6659c5dfdf51.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

David this is a very interesting document find you bring out, and certainly adds weight to the plausibility that the Mexico City Soviet "Oswald" embassy phone calls could have been voice impersonated, adding to the point already noted of the language issue. Do you have a link or reference to this document? Any idea what the context was of it, or if the "fabricat[ion] on tape phoney conversation of Cuban ambassador for insertion Lienvoy mechanism" was carried out?

 

After DURAN's arrest in 1963 there was a call 11/26/63 which is transcribed by the CIA.... between President Dorticos in Cuba and Amb Armas here's page 1.... 

Their concern had to do with money being given to Oswald by Duran... (for context, Duran was believed by many a CIA asset - vague but close enough to help)

The 1962 memo and discussion I had not followed up upon... just proved to me that 22 months before, the idea of tape fabrication within the LIENVOY program sounds lilke standard fare....

FWIW.

oh... I usually name my files to help lead me back to the sources but did not on the 1962 one meaning I probably got it from someone as a one pager or found it in a larger unmarked pdf of reports.    but I'll keep sniffing... unless one of our resident experts can lead the way...  sorry I couldn't be more helpful with this one

DJ

260377351_63-11-23FBIMexifile124-10003-10395DORTICOSandARMASconversationaboutmoneytoOswaldfromConsulateemployeesp1.thumb.jpg.94c178472ef5d3230fb54e86674ea626.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again to Bart's scanning Malcolm's collection....

We learn that AZCUE called the Russian Consulate about Oswald on Sept 28th....  I was unaware of this...

Like Oswald's calls, we should have tape and/or at least a transcript of this call as well....  (we have one of DORTICOS/ARMAS related to Oswald/Duran)

Yet the passage from the report says otherwise:   

They don't know the specific content yet they know with whom he speaks and that there would be a 4 month delay....  this is part of what we understand to be the CIA chronology for Oswald in Mexico....

We also know that DURAN tells us the man calling himself OSWALD did not return after Friday.... despite the 9/28 transcripts of him and Duran.

Seems to me this describes a call that was never made...  but I'll go do some digging....

image.png.1eff45cb9da92d5f249002acac1e99f5.png

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Ok... so when the HSCA interviews AZCUE his recollection differs from the CIA story....  what a surprise, right?

Again, the CIA LIENVOY kept tabs on a large number of telephone numbers... with the machinery "never missing a day" per the report on the man who cares for the equipment.   

AZCUE also says they close at 2 pm during the week...  the Friday 9/27 calls all occur after 4 pm and on Saturday....  what a crock.

Finally - like DURAN.... AZCUE was not shown the application photo until the HSCA...

image.png.59eb142ed5b9d116bf2a22d167daa76e.png

 

 

1522557893_75-05-02RussHolmes104-10428-10021CIAsummaryofOswaldinMexicoCityp1-2-CROPPEDp2Sept28info.jpg.b4d90a233093b0544660b02881ec139c.jpg

image.png.f38e087025fe962a5e3af5963de2d788.png

Edited by David Josephs
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Going thru FONZI's HSCA notes and even he is starting to seriously wonder:

I believe the person being referred to as stating the Cubans did not think it was our Oswald visiting in Mexico... is LITAMIL-9...  bottom image.

He also can't understand how the FBI could have heard tapes of Oswald when the CIA insists the tapes were destroyed... the photo is Mystery Man...
So of course Hoover says there's a 2nd man down there... even though his agents spent all of November looking for any trace of Oswald being in Mexico... no luck.

DJ

592da268059e5_63-11-23HooverspeakstoLBJabout2ndmaninMexico.jpg.65dc109874ab45c0b92c3757d9d863d7.jpg

 

1404019703_FONZInotesHSCA-wondersifOswaldwasactuallyOswald.thumb.jpg.ca74f9a99d82613c5df8d9e8870bb449.jpg

 

222268645_FONZInotesHSCA-wondersifOswaldwasactuallyOswaldpart2.jpg.121ab0e1f81843c55739428d8777d939.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Received a new document today which puts Sylvia Duran's arrest in a slightly different light that I've ever seen...

Ambassador MANN sends a note via the CIA to McCone, Hoover and Rusk on 11/26/63 stating that 
if they confront her with ALVARADO (Mann still believes this was real in support of Phillips and the CIA)
"and HENCE SHE IN SAME POSITION AS OSWALD WAS PRIOR TO HIS ASSASSINATION"
her only chance is to come clean.

The is an Ambassador suggesting to the CIA and by default Hoover and Rusk that if they BREAK HER (SYLVIA WAS MEXICAN)

"WE AND THE MEXICANS WOULD HAVE NEEDED CORROBORATION OF [ALVARADO'S] STATEMENT.

If Duran was indeed CIA as many have considered, and ALVARADO was a CIA asset, I'd think by confirming his lie in the face of the others who knew better and Alvarado who eventually recants....  she'd find herself in even more trouble....

Why do you suppose MANN thinks she's in the same situation as OSWALD ??

 

1335646557_MannviaCIAtoMcConeHooverRusk-DURANmightbekilledoverALVARADO.jpg.fadab2d714c6acf8a9f6e48afcc5570e.jpg

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Why do you suppose MANN thinks she's in the same situation as OSWALD ??

All of Thomas Clinton Mann's Orwellian language aside, one thing is for certain, John Moss Whitten did not believe a goddamned thing the FBI had to say about Oswald's "activities" in Mexico, and later claimed that Richard Helms' obstruction of evidence was "...was a morally highly reprehensible act, which he cannot possibly justify under his oath of office or any other standard of professional service..."

One thing is certain, Ambassador Mann helped the Central Intelligence Agency (and it's corporate clients) suppress nationalism and democracy in Guatemala in 1953, Brazil in 1964, in Chile from 1964 to 1978, in Panama in 1964, and Dominican Republic in 1965.

Why not support the CIA in a coup d'état against the perceived nationalist and communist actions of President Kennedy? 

It is a very creepy statement to make though, "...hence she in same position as Oswald was prior to his assassination..."

Especially when Ambassador Mann is talking about the actions of the Dirección Federal de Seguridad, which acted as a proxy death squad for the CIA and was involved in the kidnapping, torture and disappearance of thousands of liberal activists in the second half of the twentieth century, not to mention DFS protection of narcotics traffickers and fascist secret societies, like Carlos Cuesta Gallardo's Los Tecos, which received funding from the United States Agency for International Development, and in turn, funded the Confederacion Anti-comunista LatinoamericanaFederacion Mexicana AnticomunistaInter-American Confederation of Continual Defense, and the World Anti-Communist League.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

David,

One request:

I don't know how you do all those photo screenshots - it's a very great technique.

The problem is that none of us know where you find them - can you leave RIF numbers behind at the bottom when you do it?

Otherwise, I can't evaluate your valuable finds.

One question:

One of the reasons I am an agnostic about LHO in Mexico City -

Have you read JFK:  The Cuba Files, by ex-Cuban intelligence chief Fabian Escalante?  See pp. 114-132

Fabian Escalante has been consistent in saying that Guillermo Ruiz (Veciana's cousin-in-law) and Antonio Garcia Lara (like Ruiz, in the commercial office of the Cuban embassy) both saw LHO and it was the one shot in Dallas. They were backed up by ex-consul Alfedo Mirabal and Silvia Duran - whose descriptions of his physicality are not perfect.  We all know that Azcue said it was not LHO.  If you read Fidel Castro's testimony, he backs Azcue but suggests that he is mistaken.

Again, I am agnostic.  You are not.  How do you do address the Escalante evidence?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

The problem is that none of us know where you find them - can you leave RIF numbers behind at the bottom when you do it?

Otherwise, I can't evaluate your valuable finds.

Many of these come from Malcolm via Bart.   Like much of Armstrong's document collection, they're copies of documents that may have not seen before....

Where John scanned 10 pages, Malcom copied 100's.  They went together to the Archives throughout the 90's.... thankfully.

This is the cover page to that MANN via CIA note:

Upside down at the bottom of each page:

image.png.bec8b83950ed3c100a8e864b2afb725d.png

1436977873_63-11-26MANNasksCIAtopassmessagetoRUSKHOOVERMCCONEreDURANandALVARADOpage1.thumb.jpg.7a03d9ba2cf759ddafcc57543ce05a5e.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...