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Did EVEN the Warren Commission Believe Howard Brennan?


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The guy with the glasses, escorting Brennan, is Sheriff Bill Decker.  At 2:00:30, you see video of him.  The narrator refers to him as Decker.

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Thanks Ron and Paul,

I'm torn honestly. I think the video resembles both of them and both their statements could have them interviewing witnesses and moving them to the S.O. within about 15 minutes of the shooting.

I'm leaning towards Decker at this moment though since Walthers went immediately to the Underpass and then back to the TSBD. The timeline fits less with him. Since Decker doesn't give many details in his testimony, it's harder for me to say for certain it's him.

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Taken from old Education Forum post (Don Roberdeau Jan 14th 2005-DAL-TEX 'scope of a rifle mounted on a tripod')

Memoir of Mack White's visit to Dealey Plaza on 23rd November '63:-

"We walked to Dealey Plaza, passing the Dallas city jail. My father told me that Lee Harvey Oswald was being held inside. This made a great impression on me, to think that inside that

very building was the man who had done the horrible thing.

We were sure of Oswald's guilt. At that early hour, everyone was. It never occurred to us that his guilt might be less than a sure thing. The doubts would not begin until the next day, when local Mob man Jack Ruby appeared on the stage of history and shot Oswald while in police custody.

In front of the Texas Schoolbook Depository a man was selling copies of the Dallas Times-Herald. There was a huge stack of papers, but only a few people to buy them. Strange as it may seem now, tourists had not yet begun to arrive in Dealey Plaza in significant numbers. That morning it was mostly reporters and cops.

My father bought one of the papers (which I still have) and we walked around, my father taking pictures (which I also still have).

At one point, my father pointed out the so-called "sniper" window to me. As I was looking up, my eye wandered away from the window to the fire escape on the building across the street--the Dal-Tex building-where I saw two men taking turns looking through the scope of a rifle mounted on a tripod.

I was alarmed. "What are they doing?" I asked.

"It's part of the investigation," said my father.

So the police were checking out an alternative sniper perch. Evidently, that morning, there was still something resembling a real investigation. The investigation, of course, would end the next day with Oswald’s death."

Maybe the Dallas Police Dept., believed Howard Brennan!

Edited by Pete Mellor
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My impression of Brennan's statements differs, at least slightly, from other impressions.

I think it's possible he saw something in both windows and his mind is conflating the scenes and memories. This might explain why he had issues with the window description and issues with identifying the boys. 

This may not all flesh out, but at the moment I think it's possible.

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On 7/28/2020 at 7:57 AM, Richard Price said:

Ron, that is exactly what I was stating.  These are the "eastern most windows" of the Dal-Tex and they are directly across from the jail.  The prisoners would have a direct view and the shooter would have a direct unobstructed view down Elm.  Brennan seems to have a good sense of direction.  He states that he is facing northward and describes the location of the shooter as being in the eastern most windows.  He doesn't use landmarks for locations, he uses directional language.

In the referenced document at the link below, Brennan makes another very confusing statement if you think he is referring to the alleged snipers nest.  He states that the person he was viewing (shooter) is 90 YARDS away.  He is at most 30 yards away from the TSBD building.  Google earth shows the distance from Brennan's position to the TSBD as 33+/- yds. and the distance to the extreme SE Dal-Tex building as in the neighborhood of 70+/- yards.  He seems to me to be very exacting in his descriptions of times, locations and distances.  He seems always to use directional references from fixed landmarks.  The interviewing persons always interpret or lead him back to the TSBD, but his descriptions seem to point to the Dal-Tex building and the windows on the south eastern side of it.  I am going to have to go back and study as much as I can find of his actual statements.  In the Mary Ferrell database there are references to trying to debunk his testimony in order to show someone other than LHO did the shooting.  I think this may have contributed to many researchers not paying attention to what he was saying/pinning him down on exactly what he saw.  I also saw an article in which he says he had exceptional vision at a distance.  This changed after an (accident?) in January of 1964 in which his eyes were "sandblasted".  I wonder if this was really an accident or if it was more coercion of witnesses.  There are also references to his being discredited because he saw too many details considering the distance.  Before his "accident", he would have indeed had this ability, as he relates in the newspaper article that was done before January 1964.  I would post a link to the article which quotes him on his exceptional vision at a distance, but I've already lost it in the maze of websites I've visited.

Mary Ferrell Chronologies - November 22, 1963, Book 1, pg 57

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1 hour ago, Richard Price said:

In the referenced document at the link below, Brennan makes another very confusing statement if you think he is referring to the alleged snipers nest.  He states that the person he was viewing (shooter) is 90 YARDS away.  He is at most 30 yards away from the TSBD building.  Google earth shows the distance from Brennan's position to the TSBD as 33+/- yds. and the distance to the extreme SE Dal-Tex building as in the neighborhood of 70+/- yards.  He seems to me to be very exacting in his descriptions of times, locations and distances.  He seems always to use directional references from fixed landmarks.  The interviewing persons always interpret or lead him back to the TSBD, but his descriptions seem to point to the Dal-Tex building and the windows on the south eastern side of it.  I am going to have to go back and study as much as I can find of his actual statements.  In the Mary Ferrell database there are references to trying to debunk his testimony in order to show someone other than LHO did the shooting.  I think this may have contributed to many researchers not paying attention to what he was saying/pinning him down on exactly what he saw.  I also saw an article in which he says he had exceptional vision at a distance.  This changed after an (accident?) in January of 1964 in which his eyes were "sandblasted".  I wonder if this was really an accident or if it was more coercion of witnesses.  There are also references to his being discredited because he saw too many details considering the distance.  Before his "accident", he would have indeed had this ability, as he relates in the newspaper article that was done before January 1964.  I would post a link to the article which quotes him on his exceptional vision at a distance, but I've already lost it in the maze of websites I've visited.

Mary Ferrell Chronologies - November 22, 1963, Book 1, pg 57

Richard,

90 yards was from shooter to Kennedy:

Quote

 

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated
and the window from which the shots were flred as approximately 90 yards. At that time did you make that statement to the FBI-and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?
Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards. Now, I...

Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?
Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy’s position.
Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy’s position?
Mr. BRENNAN. No ; I could not. But I could see before and after.

 

93 feet was from shooter to Brennan:

Quote

Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir. Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75 foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 119 foot. That was my first calculation. But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.

As I mentioned, I don't get the same impression from his statements. He clearly references standing on the steps of the building he saw the shooter in and they don't have to lead him to the TSBD. He makes plenty of clear references to the TSBD and seeing a person in the window. In other statements though he does seem to suggest seeing almost the same thing in a window of the Dal-Tex. Not only in reference to a potential shooter but to the boys in the windows below. His statements regarding the description of the building are also of great interest. I would recommend re-reading all of his testimony again. It's been at least 15 years since I read it all and it was refreshing to read it again this week.

At the moment, I believe he saw something similar in both buildings. I'm going to try to flesh it out in relation to actual facts, as well as beliefs and theories I have and see where it leads.

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Thanks for the input Mark.  I also am a few years away from my intense study of the assassination and rely more on info from others now.  I will say that I understand your viewpoint and have never had a solid impression of Brennan's information before.  I just skimmed over it and accepted it as presented.  I'm starting to get a different impression now.  I now see him as a 45 year old in the prime of life (I had thought him older).  He was very exact in what he said (due I think to his work experience).  I think that he was not a publicity seeker.  He told his story, thought it would be treated fairly and went on with his life.  Then, I think he had his "accident", and he was made aware that what he was saying couldn't be right and that his life and his family's lives might not be safe if he did not fall in line.  Of course, there is probably no way to prove it, but I think he started going along after that (January 1964) accident.  In the Mary Ferrell document he clearly states the President's car was 90 FEET (30 yards) away from him at the time of the first shot.  He also states his unobstructed line of sight to the window where he saw the shooter was 90 YARDS.  Since he was sitting almost 90 degrees south of the alleged sniper window, I don't think he would have made that mistake.  Given his position, the shot would have been from 30 YARDS from the President.  It was only approximately 90 yards to the head shot at z313.  It would be interesting to "timeline" his statements, particularly the ones that can be absolutely traced to him with no outside influence prior to his "accident".  I don't have the greatest resources, but may give it a shot.  This eastern most window of the Dal-Tex may be impossible to research since it was never brought up and there are no known films/pictures.  Until the picture was posted in this thread, I never realized the resulting angles down Elm St. as it curved.  I always looked at the western windows of the Dal-Tex and southern windows of the TSBD.  Those eastern windows are so far back from the acknowledged "murder scene" as to be not considered, but for a man and a scoped rifle no real problem.  Maybe that also explains the first shot sounding like a firecracker.

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32 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

In the referenced document at the link below, Brennan makes another very confusing statement if you think he is referring to the alleged snipers nest.  He states that the person he was viewing (shooter) is 90 YARDS away.  He is at most 30 yards away from the TSBD building.  Google earth shows the distance from Brennan's position to the TSBD as 33+/- yds. and the distance to the extreme SE Dal-Tex building as in the neighborhood of 70+/- yards.  He seems to me to be very exacting in his descriptions of times, locations and distances.  He seems always to use directional references from fixed landmarks.  The interviewing persons always interpret or lead him back to the TSBD, but his descriptions seem to point to the Dal-Tex building and the windows on the south eastern side of it.  I am going to have to go back and study as much as I can find of his actual statements.  In the Mary Ferrell database there are references to trying to debunk his testimony in order to show someone other than LHO did the shooting.  I think this may have contributed to many researchers not paying attention to what he was saying/pinning him down on exactly what he saw.  I also saw an article in which he says he had exceptional vision at a distance.  This changed after an (accident?) in January of 1964 in which his eyes were "sandblasted".  I wonder if this was really an accident or if it was more coercion of witnesses.  There are also references to his being discredited because he saw too many details considering the distance.  Before his "accident", he would have indeed had this ability, as he relates in the newspaper article that was done before January 1964.  I would post a link to the article which quotes him on his exceptional vision at a distance, but I've already lost it in the maze of websites I've visited.

Mary Ferrell Chronologies - November 22, 1963, Book 1, pg 57

Richard,

The more I re-read Brennan's testimony to the WC, the more I am convinced that David Belin knew exactly what to avoid. 

Notice that the first questions are about the phony location of Brennan in the WC Exhibits 477 and 478. It's been well established that Brennan was NOT facing directly at the TSBD on the retaining wall - he was instead facing NE to the Dal-Tex building. 

By mis-locating Brennan ten feet further to the west along the wall, Belin was able to hide the direction Brennan was actually facing.

ce477.jpg

ce478.jpg

Belin even went so far as to have Brennan identify the direction in which the camera was pointed for Exhibit 478 - south! This gave the impression that Brennan was facing north, when he was not - he was looking northeast.

Further, as Tim Smith pointed out in his article, Brennan's true location was known to and commented on by David Belin: "Well, your legs in this picture, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?"

ce479.jpg

So Belin knew that the witness had just misidentified his own location in the two previous exhibits. No wonder that a confused Gerald Ford immediately made a point of asking Brennan if the exhibits showed his "true location"!

Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.
Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true--
Mr. BRENNAN. True location.
Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

It got better.

To make sure that anyone trying to parse Brennan's testimony would be at their wit's end, Belin (purportedly to show the route Brennan took from lunch at Main and Record to his location in Dealey Plaza) introduced Warren Commission Exhibit 361, a map. However, this map doesn't show Main and Record. It doesn't even show Dealey Plaza or the assassination site. It shows the area north and west of the TSBD, but . . . it is upside down. North is at the bottom of the map. South is at the top. East is to the left. West is to the right.

Also, as the WC printed it, they completely obscured Brennan's own lettering, making it impossible to decipher which of his letters are which. (After all, it was only the assassination of the president and they needed to save pennies by making the map as small and as indistinct as the could!)

Exhibit 361 in all its glory (Dealey Plaza is off the map to the top right!):

ce361.jpg

Brennan repeatedly testified that he talked with and gave his suspect description to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels. No one ever contradicted him on that point. The timing though destroyed the story that Brennan was Sawyer's source for the  12:45 suspect description.  What was fascinating was that television news crews filmed Brennan talking with a Secret Service agent, and Brennan's wife saw him on TV. Yet when those same films were re-run later, the scene with Brennan and the unidentified Secret Service agent (on the east side of Houston, north of Elm!)  was cut from the news broadcasts at the request of "Mr. Lish of the FBI. . . "

Yet David Belin and Warren Commission did NOT want to know anything about that strange and sinister action by the FBI. No questions were asked. 

Brennan testified that he was mistaken in his identification of the window out of which the two "negroes" were looking at the time of the shooting. When confronted with Exhibit 481, he backed down in his assertion that they were in the window he had marked as "B" in Exhibit 477. (See above.)

Why is this significant?

Because Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman and James Jarman were all on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting, and Harold Norman was (allegedly) directly beneath the "sniper's window" at the moment of the shooting. Norman claimed to have heard the sound of ejected shells hitting the floor from directly over his head!

Belin had a dilemma: the Warren Commission needed the testimony of those three to put the shooter in the "sniper's nest" (directly above their heads), but they also needed Brennan to make an identification of the shooter, and Brennan had just missed on the window out of which the "negroes" were leaning. If Brennan was originally correct, then Williams, Norman and Jarman were incorrect . . .)

(At least according to WC Exhibits 480, and 481, which purport to be authentic assassination photos taken by Thomas Dillard of the Dallas Morning News within about 15 to 30 seconds of the shots. Others have argued that Dillard's original photos were switched out for FBI re-enactment photos - these - taken a few days later. But that's a separate thread.)

ce480.jpg

ce481.jpg

Brennan told the Warren Commission he could accurately identify the "Negroes" he'd seen on the 5th floor, yet when shown this Exhibit 482, he could . . . NOT!

ce482.jpg

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me on the plane of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.
Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles

 

We all know that Brennan never identified anyone in the custody of the Dallas Police as the shooter. He even admitted under oath that when he saw "Oswald" on television, "he looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him from the window - not much younger, but a few years younger - say 5 years younger."

 

To recap:

Belin took much testimony from Brennan in a manner that obscured, rather than clarified such details as:

1. Brennan's location

2. The direction Brennan was facing

3. Belin failed to introduce Brennan's own first day affidavit to the Dallas Sheriff's Office, and the important details about the "large red brick building" with all the fire escapes . . .

4. No mention whatsoever of Herbert Sawyer, the Dallas Police Inspector to whom (allegedly) Brennan gave his description, which then became (allegedly) the basis for the infamous 12:45 broadcast of the suspect. Belin could have arranged for Brennan to see a picture of Sawyer - they lived and worked in Dallas! Instead, Belin asked exactly ZERO questions to Brennan about Sawyer! Belin (and the WC) KNEW that Brennan was not Sawyer's mysterious source, but they dared not ask too much - Brennan might refuse to identify Sawyer!

5. Belin never pinned down with whom Brennan spoke in the DPD. Belin did not want to know, because that officer might well have confirmed that Brennan did indeed talk with the Secret Service's Forrest Sorrels, which would be way too late to make the "Brennan was Sawyer's source" story true.

6. Belin muddied the record about Brennan's walk on the east side of Houston Street, NORTH of Elm (right next to the Dal-Tex building!) with an unknown DPD cop for a vague amount of time before Brennan was able to give his suspect description. Belin asked exactly ZERO questions about why Brennan was walked on the east side of Houston, north of Elm.

7. Belin introduced an upside down map, completely inappropriate for the (ostensible) purpose, but perfect for muddying the waters.

8. Belin did NOT want to know why the FBI cut the TV news footage of Brennan and a Secret Service agent. The rest of the film ran a number of times, but Brennan and the Secret Service agent were cut. The fact that the men were on the east side of Houston, north of Elm (next to the Dal-Tex) is mighty intriguing . . .

9. Belin heard testimony from his own witness that this witness identified neither the shooter in the "sniper's window" nor the men on the floor beneath that window, nor even the right window, not even when shown WC Exhibit 482.

David Belin knew exactly what to ask and exactly what to avoid. 

For the conspirators, they could not have been a better lawyer than David Belin to take Brennan's testimony.

 

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Posted (edited)

Paul:

In point 8, why do you think the film was cut?

And are you implying that whoever was cut from this film, that person plus the DPD guy who talked to Brennan on Houston (point 6) , they gave Brennan his story?

Edited by James DiEugenio
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Paul, that is exactly what I'm starting to realize.  Those on the crusade to nail LHO used him by totally confusing his answers and never addressing what he said.  They did such a good job of it that the investigators outside the "official" one started to believe that "they" had to show Brennan to be confused, not of good sight and not credible.  He got it from both sides and was probably stupefied because no one was asking him the right questions, at least not until he had his "accident".  After that, I think he knew to just go along and not put up a fuss.  If this premise is true, it is another sad story of someone trying to do the right thing and learning just how much he had been led astray by his beliefs in the fundamental American institutions.  This is also disheartening to me, as there has and probably be no evidence available for a shooter at this window other than the people detained leaving the Dal-Tex building and maybe some minutia of information from the prisoners in the jail if any are still alive.

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17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul:

In point 8, why do you think the film was cut?

And are you implying that whoever was cut from this film, that person plus the DPD guy who talked to Brennan on Houston (point 6) , they gave Brennan his story?

Jim,

Howard Brennan testified under oath that the local TV news station footage of himself was cut. When Belin was questioning Brennan about his location when he talked with the Secret Service agent, Brennan told Belin his exact location was on film!

Belin DID NOT want any part of that - he asked no questions and immediately changed the subject!

"Mr. BELIN. All right.
Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?
Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home my wife saw it.
Mr. BELIN. On television?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them.
Do you remember what station they were on television?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.

Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with?
Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI.

Mr. BELIN. All right.
We thank you very much for that information.
Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office? . . ."

 

 

In answer to your second question Jim, no I don't think anyone with whom Brennan spoke pressured him on 11/22/63. That's why his first day affidavit is so interesting - he was clearly referencing the Dal-Tex building. 

Did he also see some things in the TSBD? Well, he saw at least some black employees hanging out windows on the fifth floor. Whatever (and whoever) else he may have seen was undoubtedly subject to subtle pressure later. 

Is Richard Price correct in his assertion that Brennan's "accident" (sandblast to the face) was no accident, but a warning to Brennan?

I don't know, but it is not unreasonable to suspect that Brennan himself might have viewed it that way.

In any event, David Belin managed to take testimony from Brennan in a manner that completely clouded whatever observations Brennan might have had about the Dal-Tex building. 

 

Edited by Paul Jolliffe
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22 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

I have still been searching for info on Brennan.  I came across this "out of the blue" when I searched for anything from the HSCA.  Very interesting!  Again, if the file will not open let me know and I'' try again.

 

HOWARD BRENNAN-IMMUNITY.htm 9.79 kB · 0 downloads

My take on that is it was a ploy to try to get him to speak. 

I feel at the moment it was likely assurance to Brennan that they only wanted to hear his story and not go after him regarding anything he might say "now" or then. 

Basically if it comes out that he "lied" under oath to the WC they wouldn't penalize him. 

Why else would he need any immunity? 

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31 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

I have still been searching for info on Brennan.  I came across this "out of the blue" when I searched for anything from the HSCA.  Very interesting!  Again, if the file will not open let me know and I'' try again.

 

HOWARD BRENNAN-IMMUNITY.htm 9.79 kB · 0 downloads

Great stuff, Richard!

That completely confirms my suspicion (and yours) that Brennan gave an "altered" version of events to the Warren Commission in 1964. The HSCA in 1978 realized that he'd lied and that he  was now terrified about telling what he'd really seen. Brennan refused to sign the form on 5/28/78 indicating that his statements were accurate.

The HSCA had zeroed on five of Brennan's statements. I bet we have a pretty good idea of which ones!

The HSCA believed that Brennan was very scared, and they even wrote about what they called the "Dean Andrews" syndrome - the intimidation of "little people", potential witnesses whose accounts were in conflict with the narrative pushed by such powerful forces in America. 

The HSCA was never able to get any statement from Brennan, apparently. 

Brennan died in 1983 at the age of 64. David Belin died in 1999 at the age of 70. So Belin was still very much alive when the HSCA wanted Brennan to testify to them in 1978.

I am convinced beyond any doubt that David Belin suborned perjury from Howard Brennan in 1964. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had dropped a hint to Brennan in 1978 that it would be a really bad idea to start telling the truth.

 

"In American law, Scots law, and under the laws of some English-speaking Commonwealth nations, subornation of perjury is the crime of persuading or permitting a person to commit perjury, which is the swearing of a false oath to tell the truth in a legal proceeding, whether spoken or written."

 

In this article from the Eugene (Oregon) Register Guard newspaper edition of June 25, 1967, WC attorney Joseph Ball is quoted as saying; 

"Epstein says (Edward Epstein)that I told him when we constructed the episode that 'Brennan had difficulty seeing a figure in the window."  I never said that. In the first place, we didn't have Brennan at the reconstruction to see whether he could see. (No, of course not. Who cares if a witness's testimony is truthful?) We had him there so that he could mark positions on a photo."

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=w6lVAAAAIBAJ&pg=6440%2C5455217

In other words, Ball admitted that when the WC arranged for Brennan to revisit the assassination site, they had no interest in learning what he could (or could not) see of the sixth floor window!

The fix was in, and by the time Howard Brennan testified in 1964, both he and David Belin knew what to say and what to avoid.

 

 

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During my most recent searches, I have discovered that much has been discussed on this very forum dating back to at least 2010 with William Kelly, Steve Thomas and others.  I'm going to try my hand at the archived articles.  I probably did not read these since I was at that time deeply exploring JFK Lancer and trying to learn to use its resources.

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