The Far-Reaching Influence of “Harvey and Lee”

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s continue to look at some other evidence for the two Oswalds.

Dude, you LITERALLY post the same thing every day. You wrote nearly the identical sentence in this thread barely 24 hours ago. Should I have t-shirts made?

[James Norwood]

40 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Oswald clearly spoke Russian and read Russian literature in the Marines prior to his false defection to Russia.

Jim,

It was refreshing to read a post that included actual evidence, as opposed to mindless chatter.

Here are a few more eyewitnesses attesting to Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language: 
 

• Rosaleen Quinn, a relative of one of Oswald’s fellow Marines, recalled that “Oswald spoke Russian well.”  This was prior to the “defection” of 1959.

• Paul Gregory was a graduate student in Russian language and literature at the University of Oklahoma.  He later told the Warren Commission that Oswald “was completely fluent.  He understood more than I did and he could express any idea…that he wanted to in Russian.”

• Natalie Ray, who emigrated to the United States from Stalingrad and met Oswald after his return from the Soviet Union, testified to the Warren Commission that his conversational Russian was “just perfect….it’s just too good speaking Russian for such a short time.”  When Mrs. Ray was asked by Warren Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, “You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect a person to be able to speak Russian after only living…there only 3 years?”, she replied, “Yes; I really did.”

If Oswald had taught himself Russian or was “immersed” in the language through formal training, I would very much to see the evidence of when and where that happened.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, James Norwood said:

Here are a few more eyewitnesses attesting to Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language: 

There were several witnesses that said Oswald had a Polish accent when speaking Russian.  This might help with answering the question how did Oswald learn the Russian language?

He was born to it.  There is an area in eastern Poland and western Russia that has swapped ownership from time to time.  This is the area that contains the city of Minsk.  From the internet:

It was part of a region annexed by the Russian Empire in 1793, as a consequence of the Second Partition of Poland. From 1919 to 1991, after the Russian Revolution, Minsk was the capital of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, in the Soviet Union.

Now, wouldn't that be something if immigrant Harvey originally came from Minsk and then returned there later on in life.  Allen Dulles was in charge of the OSS in Switzerland during the war years 1942-1945.  Switzerland was a conduit for Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis during those years and particularly from Poland.  Dulles helped refugees get to France and Spain which were stops on their way to the US.  Many of these refugees came from Poland and some from the area of Minsk.

Harvey wrote in one of his letters (autobiography) that his mother and father were dead,  and he did not have a brother or sister.  Was this the truth for immigrant Harvey?  Did his family die in Russian occupied Poland due to the Nazis systematic genocide? 

Harvey has connection to Hungarians according to the Tippit phone call FBI doc.  This connection was to the Gardos and Louis Weinstock.  The folks were Hungarians and ranking communists in New York in the 1940s.  Because of the FBI treatment of these people it is suspected that they may have been informants.  Allen Dulles and his henchmen made have been thinking of a way to attack the upcoming and new enemy, the Russians, mid way through the war.  Immigrant Harvey may have been placed with them from about 1943 to 1947 when he is turned over to Mysterious Marge.  The Oswald Project may have been the brain child of Allen Dulles starting midway through WWII.

This Hungarian connection was emphasized by adult Oswald having a 1962 book of Hungarian poetry in the Hungarian language.  Immigrant Harvey was probably multi-lingual.  If you listen closely to Harvey speak you can hear New York and some foreign-ish language.  What you don't hear is a New Orleans accent such as those heard from Louisiana cooks heard on TV.  Lee Oswald had this accent but probably lost it to some extent by being in Texas, New York, and the military. 

None of this is really provable and is just conjecture and speculation.  But, there is some slight validity in this.          

Edited August 11, 2020 by John Butler

[James Norwood]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Allen Dulles and his henchmen made have been thinking of a way to attack the upcoming and new enemy, the Russians. 

John,

Thank you for your insightful analysis.  While I concur with you that there is inevitably conjecture and speculation involved, the points that you raise about Dulles are certainly not far-fetched.  The so-called Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) was a branch of the CIA coming into its own in the late 1940s.  Allen Dulles and Frank Wisner were running this operation with the intent of recruiting ex-Nazis and assets from Eastern Europe.  As noted by David Talbot in his book The Devil's Chessboard--Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government (New York: HarperCollins, 2015):

"Dulles and Wisner were engaged in their own no-holds-barred war with the Soviet bloc.  They saw Eastern Europe as their primary battlefield in the great struggle to roll back the Soviet advance." (149)

In his article "The Early Lives of Harvey and Lee," John Armstrong provides this background on Frank Wisner:

"Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrants' knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands.  Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the 'systematic' use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed.  The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains 'classified,' that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA.  The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA.  DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: 'We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs.  It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.'”

The full article, including J. Edgar Hoover's role in the recruitment operation, may be read at:  https://harveyandlee.net/Early/Early.html
 

Edited August 11, 2020 by James Norwood

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Dude, you LITERALLY post the same thing every day. You wrote nearly the identical sentence in this thread barely 24 hours ago. Should I have t-shirts made?

No, I've posted that list only twice in my life.  You're thinking of Jeremy Bojczuk, who has posted the same material about the mastoidectomy every day for years.  Watch... he'll do it again in less than 24 hours.

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, James Norwood said:

Jim,

It was refreshing to read a post that included actual evidence, as opposed to mindless chatter.

Here are a few more eyewitnesses attesting to Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language: 
 

• Rosaleen Quinn, a relative of one of Oswald’s fellow Marines, recalled that “Oswald spoke Russian well.”  This was prior to the “defection” of 1959.

• Paul Gregory was a graduate student in Russian language and literature at the University of Oklahoma.  He later told the Warren Commission that Oswald “was completely fluent.  He understood more than I did and he could express any idea…that he wanted to in Russian.”

• Natalie Ray, who emigrated to the United States from Stalingrad and met Oswald after his return from the Soviet Union, testified to the Warren Commission that his conversational Russian was “just perfect….it’s just too good speaking Russian for such a short time.”  When Mrs. Ray was asked by Warren Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, “You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect a person to be able to speak Russian after only living…there only 3 years?”, she replied, “Yes; I really did.”

If Oswald had taught himself Russian or was “immersed” in the language through formal training, I would very much to see the evidence of when and where that happened.

Natalie Ray attended that post-Christmas party Katya Ford held in Dallas in 1962, and how she described LHO’s command of the Russian language was really quite funny.  On p. 426 of Harvey and Lee, John indicated what Natalie Ray and a half dozen other attendees of the party thought about Oswald’s Russian skills:

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he
(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­-
ally surprised me .... .it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,
you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long
and still don't speak very well English.”

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-
sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been
in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,
"I would say very good."170

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­-
mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-
riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely
better than I would expect."

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good
command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did
speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised--in
short time, he spoke nicely."

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke
fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to
speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English
to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I
thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I
asked him if he was of Polish decent."

This party, of course, was after Harvey spent two and a half years in Russia.  Some H&L critics will just claim Oswald was a fast learner, or that he was given Russian-language training in the military.  John’s interviews with Harvey’s fellow Marines, however, show that it is unlikely that he had any real opportunity for the kind of protracted language training needed to learn Russian that well BEFORE ever reaching the Soviet Union.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/10/2020 at 2:20 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

Mr. Bojczuk’s explanation for the American-born LHO’s missing tooth requires that you disbelieve what you see with your own eyes.  Look at the photo.  Look at the testimony of the man who took the photo ... Look at the Marine Corps dental records showing a prosthesis that “FAILED 5-5-58.”

Game, set, and match.

To continue the sporting metaphors, Jim's reply is par for the course:

 

LOL  Got to admit, that was funny. 

 

On 8/10/2020 at 2:20 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

(a) He [Jim] ignores the alternative explanations that have been given.

 

There are always alternative explanations if you ignore the strong corroborating evidence. For example, if we follow the Warren Report and ignore all the other evidence, an alternative explanation for who shot Kennedy is that Oswald did, and did so alone.

But most reasonable, intelligent people with an open mind, who study and understand the evidence, will come to the conclusion that there were two Oswalds and that neither of them shot Kennedy.

Ideologues fall on the other end of the spectrum. They tend to believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest. And they do whatever they can to make others believe the same as they do. For example, by constantly disrupting discussions whose content doesn't meet their approval.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/10/2020 at 2:28 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We disposed of Sandy's explanation for the existence of the mastoidectomy defect on the body in Oswald's grave.

 

Jeremy thinks that if we have no medical record for someone, that  person cannot exist. Even though we DO have other records for the person.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/10/2020 at 2:30 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jim has misunderstood what I've been saying. Different aspects of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory fail for different reasons, but the mastoidectomy is noteworthy for two things.

Firstly, the fact that the body in Oswald's grave had undergone a mastoidectomy operation proves that the theory John Armstrong put forward in Harvey and Lee is wrong.

 

Just because you say so doesn't make it so.

Both Jim and I have put forth reasonable hypotheses regarding this issue. You just can' see them with your closed eyes.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

Jeremy thinks that if we have no medical record for someone, that  person cannot exist. Even though we DO have other records for the person.

What we have is one set of medical records, and one body to which those records might apply:

- One set of records for a mastoidectomy operation carried out on someone with the name Lee Harvey Oswald.
- One body exhumed from a grave in which someone with the name Lee Harvey Oswald had been buried.
- One mastoidectomy defect on that one body.

If there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds, each of whom had undergone a mastoidectomy operation, we should have two sets of medical records and two bodies with mastoidectomy defects. But we don't; we only have one of each.

The rational conclusion is that the one set of medical records applies to the one body with the one mastoidectomy defect. This isn't difficult to understand, surely?

If you want to propose the existence of a second Lee Harvey Oswald who underwent a second mastoidectomy operation, you really need to explain a few things:

- Where and when did the second operation take place?
- What happened to the medical records for the second operation?
- What happened to the second Lee Harvey Oswald, on whom the second mastoidectomy operation was performed?

Until Sandy or anyone else can offer plausible answers to these questions, and not just empty speculation, the only rational conclusion continues to be that only one mastoidectomy operation was carried out on only one Lee Harvey Oswald.

And if there was only one mastoidectomy operation, the theory put forward in Harvey and Lee is wrong.

Quote

They tend to believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest.

The words of the prophet Armstrong are written on the ROKC walls:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2208p25-dear-sandy#34311

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove speculates:

Quote

It was Russian-speaking Harvey, not American-born Lee, who had the mastoidectomy all along.  Hoover just altered a report or two to make the medical histories match.

Which reports did Hoover alter? What evidence can Jim produce to show that these reports were altered?

Jim made the same claim in an earlier thread. Even after repeated prompting, he was unable to produce these supposedly altered documents, let alone show that they were altered. I helped him by producing a few candidates myself, but he still couldn't do it:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26529-was-it-really-just-a-mole-hunt-about-oswald/page/12/

To accommodate his speculative switcheroo, Jim needs to rewrite John Armstrong's biographies of his two fictional doppelgangers. Armstrong goes into a lot of detail early in Harvey and Lee, making it clear that the mastoidectomy operation must have been performed on imaginary doppelganger A. How would Jim transfer the operation to imaginary doppelganger B? He can't just click his fingers; he needs to reconstruct the biographies of the two imaginary doppelgangers. How would he go about doing this?

Jim also speculates:

Quote

The same fine people who brought children and the MKULTRA program together decided it was their patriotic duty to drill a small hole in a kid’s skull by his ear (a mastoidectomy) in order to make the medical histories match.   It was "Marguerite's" housekeeper in New York City who said the child was getting mental tests at Jacobi Hospital, at the very time he was so often truant from PS 117. She, or the FBI agent describing her remarks, obviously meant the hospital that pre-dated Jacobi at the same location.

Where is the documentary evidence for this? Where is the medical report that states the name of the hospital, the name of the surgeon, and the date of the operation?

We have such a report for a mastoidectomy operation carried out on the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald. It's Warren Commission Exhibit 2218 (Hearings, vol.25, p.118). You can find it online at https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=148. Where is the equivalent report for Jim's imaginary doppelganger?

All Jim has produced is a decades-old recollection of a completely different medical treatment, at a hospital that hadn't been built at the time mentioned in that decades-old recollection.

Jim's third speculation:

Quote

Both young men may have acquired the procedure naturally, since mastoidectomies were once far more common than they are now.

If this unlikely event happened, we are missing one set of medical reports for a mastoidectomy operation on a boy named Lee Harvey Oswald. We are also missing a body, complete with a mastoidectomy defect, of a Lee Harvey Oswald. We should have two of each, but we only have one.

Where is the missing medical report? Where is the missing body?

Jim likes the idea of evidence, or as he often puts it, EVIDENCE! Would he be kind enough to produce the relevant physical EVIDENCE! to support the speculations he has given us?

In the absence of such EVIDENCE!, all we have is one medical report of one mastoidectomy operation carried out on one Lee Harvey Oswald, and one body exhumed from one grave of one Lee Harvey Oswald bearing one mastoidectomy defect. The only rational conclusion is that the one medical report applies to the one body, and that Oswald was one person and not a pair of doppelgangers.

If there was only one mastoidectomy, as the current EVIDENCE! indicates, the theory put forward in Harvey and Lee is wrong.

And then there is the question Jim won't answer, the one about his guru John Armstrong's apparent dishonesty. Armstrong deliberately neglected to mention in his book the mastoidectomy defect that falsified the biographies of his imaginary doppelgangers. The obvious explanation would be that he did this in the hope that his readers wouldn't notice that his theory had been debunked two decades earlier.

Will Jim admit that his guru, John Armstrong, appears to be no more honest than a snake-oil salesman? Or does Jim have a less unflattering explanation for Armstrong's failure to mention the mastoidectomy defect?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

Jeremy thinks that if we have no medical record for someone, that  person cannot exist. Even though we DO have other records for the person.

What we have is one set of medical records, and one body to which those records might apply:

 

Jeremy thinks that if a person disappears, he never existed.

In our case, physical records and testimony show that there were two Oswalds. We don't know what happened to one of the Oswalds. Since that one disappeared, Jeremy concludes he never existed (as per my first paragraph above). And since he never existed (in Jeremy's universe), Jeremy is forced to ignore the evidence that he did exist.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

If there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds, each of whom had undergone a mastoidectomy operation, we should have two sets of medical records and two bodies with mastoidectomy defects. But we don't; we only have one of each.

 

Jeremy thinks that if we don't have the medical records of someone, he never existed. And he thinks that if we don't know what happened to someone, he never existed

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jim Hargrove speculates:

Quote

It was Russian-speaking Harvey, not American-born Lee, who had the mastoidectomy all along.  Hoover just altered a report or two to make the medical histories match.

Which reports did Hoover alter? What evidence can Jim produce to show that these reports were altered?

 

Jeremy doesn't understand what a hypothesis is, what it is used for, and that it necessarily involves speculation.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

Both young men may have acquired the [mastoidectomy] naturally, since mastoidectomies were once far more common than they are now.

If this unlikely event happened, .....

 

Jeremy says it's unlikely that TWO boys each had mastoidectomy surgery, but thinks nothing of ONE boy having school records showing he attended a school in New York City and another in New Orleans simultaneously. Ha! Wow.

Okay, maybe he'll say that one of the school records had a row of clerical errors on it. To which I'd ask, well how likely is that? The odds of that happening are surely lower than the odds of two boy having a mastoidectomy. I've never heard of such a massive clerical error before, but I have seen plenty of boys who have had a mastoidectomy.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Sandy Larsen