Pool of blood - Dealey Plaza

[Denny Zartman]

On 8/15/2020 at 3:55 PM, Chris Barnard said:

You're right, a pool that size is a significant loss of blood and indicates someone bleeding on one place, not on the move. 

Hi Chris,

I'm the one who did the transcript of the Osanic/Coley interview that was linked in the second post. It is definitely one of the many mysteries in this case that fascinates me. Contrary to what @David Andrews posted, it seems that at least two people (Mal Couch and Jean Hill) reported observing a trail of something they believed to be blood in Dealey Plaza that day. If I may be so bold as to quote myself from this 2016 thread:

Quote

 

A. J. Millican:

"A man standing on the South side of Elm Street was either hit in the foot or the ankle and fell down."

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=504

Mal Couch:

“I started toward the building where I had seen the rifle in the window. Then I saw something very weird. There was a trail of blood from the spot where the shooting occurred to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. I pointed it out to a man with me."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/couch.htm

Jean Hill:

"...I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink...when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him."...When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around..."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_j.htm

Now, here is the relevant quote from "JFK - From Parkland To Bethesda" Page 46, regarding a statement made by Parkland Hospital witness #38. Nurse Bertha L. Lozano:

"A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient who was bleeding... Blood technicians came to ask me who 'Mr. X' was who did not have an E. R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the same thing."

 

I also remember a statement from a Parkland doctor or administrator that said that soon after Kennedy's death a Secret Service man who was injured came to the doctor/admin and asked about alternative exits from the hospital. And of course we have those early reports of a Secret Service man being hit or even killed, along with Seth Kantor's memorable quote "They even have to die in secret."

Finally, from what I am aware of, all of the debunking of the blood as actually being soda comes from Hugh Aynesworth, a Dallas reporter generally considered to be a supporter of the Lone Nut theory. This is curious, because I seem to recall that one person was told it was not soda, but snow cone flavoring.

Millican's observation may not be valid or relevant. I only included it to try and be as comprehensive as possible.

I think the statements of Couch and Hill support Coley's story in that there was red liquid on the ground that was immediately believed to be blood by two separate observers. I'd go so far as to say Aynesworth's reporting proves to a certainty that there was indeed red liquid on the ground in Dealey Plaza just after the assassination, we're only debating what that liquid was.

Was it blood? It's not certain, but then, what to make of Nurse Lozano's statement? Who was coincidentally bleeding at the time of the assassination, and was also a VIP whose presence in the hospital needed to be kept secret? What could the innocent explanation for that possibly be? Was it something like a Mayor or city councilperson that coincidentally cut themselves with a knife while making lunch five miles away or something like that? Sure, that's a possibility - but then why would something like that need to be kept a secret?

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Hi Chris,

I'm the one who did the transcript of the Osanic/Coley interview that was linked in the second post. It is definitely one of the many mysteries in this case that fascinates me. Contrary to what @David Andrews posted, it seems that at least two people (Mal Couch and Jean Hill) reported observing a trail of something they believed to be blood in Dealey Plaza that day. If I may be so bold as to quote myself from this 2016 thread:

I also remember a statement from a Parkland doctor or administrator that said that soon after Kennedy's death a Secret Service man who was injured came to the doctor/admin and asked about alternative exits from the hospital. And of course we have those early reports of a Secret Service man being hit or even killed, along with Seth Kantor's memorable quote "They even have to die in secret."

Finally, from what I am aware of, all of the debunking of the blood as actually being soda comes from Hugh Aynesworth, a Dallas reporter generally considered to be a supporter of the Lone Nut theory. This is curious, because I seem to recall that one person was told it was not soda, but snow cone flavoring.

Millican's observation may not be valid or relevant. I only included it to try and be as comprehensive as possible.

I think the statements of Couch and Hill support Coley's story in that there was red liquid on the ground that was immediately believed to be blood by two separate observers. I'd go so far as to say Aynesworth's reporting proves to a certainty that there was indeed red liquid on the ground in Dealey Plaza just after the assassination, we're only debating what that liquid was.

Was it blood? It's not certain, but then, what to make of Nurse Lozano's statement? Who was coincidentally bleeding at the time of the assassination, and was also a VIP whose presence in the hospital needed to be kept secret? What could the innocent explanation for that possibly be? Was it something like a Mayor or city councilperson that coincidentally cut themselves with a knife while making lunch five miles away or something like that? Sure, that's a possibility - but then why would something like that need to be kept a secret?

Thank you very much for that Denny. I am just racking my brains and looking at the layout, am I right in thinking if you run around the back of the white monument (that Zapruder) is in front of) and toward the SBD, that it just connects to that, there are no obstacles? I can’t see looking at all suggested lines of fire that a ricochet is probable in relation to where the pool of blood is located (though I know in theory it could happen). What seems more likely is if someone returned fire and hit this suspect member of the SS. As others have pointed out, its a decent amount of blood to make a puddle. 
Am I right in thinking the only official SS personnel present in Dealey were on the motorcade? 

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

Contrary to what @David Andrews posted, it seems that at least two people (Mal Couch and Jean Hill) reported observing a trail of something they believed to be blood in Dealey Plaza that day.

I am no good.

[Denny Zartman]

10 hours ago, David Andrews said:

I am no good.

I'm sorry David. I didn't mean to offend you. That was not my intent, and I apologize.

[Denny Zartman]

On 8/16/2020 at 2:34 PM, Chris Barnard said:

Am I right in thinking the only official SS personnel present in Dealey were on the motorcade? 

Officially, there were no Secret Service agents on foot at or left behind in Dealey Plaza, but then we have stories like this one from Dallas police officer Joe M. Smith:

Quote

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/smith_j1.htm

And then the following, from Jim Marrs's "Crossfire" first edition, 1989, pg 78, where Marrs quotes Dealey Plaza witness Gordon Arnold:

Quote

I was walking along behind this picket fence when a man in a light-colored suit came up to me and said I shouldn't be up there. I was young and cocky and I said "Why not?" And he showed me a badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn't want anyone up there.

A quote from Dealey Plaza witness Malcolm Summers:

Quote

"I ran across the--Elm Street to right there toward the knoll. It was there [pointing to a spot on the knoll]--and we were stopped by a man in a suit and he had an overcoat--over his arm and he, he, I saw a gun under that overcoat. And he--his comment was, "Don't you all come up here any further, you could get shot, or killed," one of those words. A few months later, they told me they didn't have an FBI man in that area. If they didn't have anybody, it's a good question who it was. "

http://www.jfklancer.com/ManWho.html

And this from Dallas police Sergeant D. V. Harkness, who went to the rear of the TSBD to seal it off at 12:36 PM:

Quote

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?
Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/harkness.htm

[Denny Zartman]

This was made for me by another forum member in another thread about this subject.

And what I believe has been said to possibly be the Coley pool of blood and a gif of the passing man who appears to be looking at it and/or walking around it.

[David Andrews]

2 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm sorry David. I didn't mean to offend you. That was not my intent, and I apologize.

Kidding.

[Denny Zartman]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

Kidding.

[Joe Bauer]

Does anybody here doubt the part in the Coley interview where he claims that Newspaper photographer Jim Hood ( accompanying Coley to see the pool himself ) actually bent down, put his small pinky finger in the red liquid pool and then after tasting it stated to Coley ... it was blood alright?

Do you think Coley is lying about this? Making it up to embellish?

Why would Jim Hood also become afraid when he was told by Coley that the story of their investigating and photographing the pool got out in the press due to Hugh Ainsworth, if it was truly just spilled soda or snow cone syrup?

Hood's tasting of the pooled liquid and stating it was blood is a hugely bolstering piece of information regarding this truly being spilled blood imo.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Tony Krome]

"Hood's tasting of the pooled liquid and stating it was blood is a hugely bolstering piece of information regarding this truly being spilled blood imo"

Combine all the information you have in the immediate area, and see if it develops into a sensible story;

Pool of liquid

Taste test determines blood

Pool of blood indicating stationary victim

Blood trail towards TSBD

No body

If someone was shot and bleeding to the extent they couldn't move, and yet there was a blood trail, there is the possibility that the victim was whisked away by persons unknown.

We know Bowers noticed strangers. We know cops were encountering what they believed to be Secret Service agents all around the TSBD. Whether they were SS or not, it makes no difference. There were strangers all through there.

Couch said blood trail to TSBD entrance. There was a side entrance.

Then we have Mr. X at Parkland who needs blood.

I can't imagine an everyday citizen requiring a Mr. X label.

I think it was Price over there at Parkland that mentioned an injured SS agent. Now this SS agent approached Price, he was not bleeding, but he had minor injuries, bruising etc. Was this agent in some sort of altercation? If he's somehow connected with the blood pool victim, there may of been a close up scuffle and shooting.

So how would a well trained and armed SS agent come away with injuries? Well, Mr. X may have been his equal.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

"Hood's tasting of the pooled liquid and stating it was blood is a hugely bolstering piece of information regarding this truly being spilled blood imo"

Combine all the information you have in the immediate area, and see if it develops into a sensible story;

Pool of liquid

Taste test determines blood

Pool of blood indicating stationary victim

Blood trail towards TSBD

No body

If someone was shot and bleeding to the extent they couldn't move, and yet there was a blood trail, there is the possibility that the victim was whisked away by persons unknown.

We know Bowers noticed strangers. We know cops were encountering what they believed to be Secret Service agents all around the TSBD. Whether they were SS or not, it makes no difference. There were strangers all through there.

Couch said blood trail to TSBD entrance. There was a side entrance.

Then we have Mr. X at Parkland who needs blood.

I can't imagine an everyday citizen requiring a Mr. X label.

I think it was Price over there at Parkland that mentioned an injured SS agent. Now this SS agent approached Price, he was not bleeding, but he had minor injuries, bruising etc. Was this agent in some sort of altercation? If he's somehow connected with the blood pool victim, there may of been a close up scuffle and shooting.

So how would a well trained and armed SS agent come away with injuries? Well, Mr. X may have been his equal.

It does make a story. I think if someone turned up there in the moments leading up to the motorcade arriving/passing and spots a bloke with a rifle, the conspiracy is blown before its even happened. Perhaps someone turned up as the car turned onto Elm, it's easier to remove that person than explain the rest of it. Every man and his dog would be watching the road waiting for the president. You'd assume that those 'strangers' were support for the gunmen,  and controlling the area before the shots were fired. You'd need a few of those guys covering at least each point of approach for a member of the public. 

[Michael Clark]

On 8/17/2020 at 12:34 PM, Chris Barnard said:

...the conspiracy is blown before its even happened. Perhaps someone turned up as the car turned onto Elm, it's easier to remove that person than explain the rest of it. ...

That’s the crux of it; the conversion of a conspiracy into a lone nut story. A false flag assassination plan, leading to an invasion of Cuba was shelved. It can be pulled from the shelf if needed, but Kennedy was dead, mobsters got double-crossed, Guantanamo would not have to be negotiated, and no Spanish-speaking, Catholic people would be competing with US agricultural, tourist, or natural resource interests.

 

[Joe Bauer]

If someone was shot where the pool of blood was found, maybe the gun had a silencer so no shot would be heard?

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

If someone was shot where the pool of blood was found, maybe the gun had a silencer so no shot would be heard?

I think that or they were knifed and removed. We’d only be speculating but, they bled a fair bit. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

That’s the crux of it; the conversion of a conspiracy into a lone nut story. A false flag assassination plan, leading to an invasion of Cuba was shelved. It can be pulled from the shelf if needed, but Kennedy was dead, mobsters got double-crossed, Guantanamo would not have to be negotiated, and no Spanish-speaking, Catholic people would be competing with US agricultural, tourist, or natural resource interests.

 

The whole 7/7 & 9/11 things work like that, security services carrying out ‘national security’ operations on the very day an attack happens. I guess back then it could have been a variation on ‘Operation Northwoods’.