Jump to content
The Education Forum

Why Jeremy Bojczuk is wrong about the Harvey & Lee theory and Lifton's body alteration theory.


Recommended Posts

On 9/12/2020 at 6:13 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The most convincing witnesses were Dr. Homer Wood and his 13-year-old son Sterling.  In describing who they saw at the Sports Drome rifle range, both father and son independently right after the assassination recognized the man each had seen at the range just six days before the assassination. Both Dr. Wood and his son testified and were convincing witnesses. 

The Woods were so believable Sylvia Meagher considered the possibility that LHO was indeed at the range that day.  

Disagree. The problem is twofold: (a) neither of these witnesses knew Oswald before the Sports Drome sightings, and (b) nothing about the individual they saw at the Sports Drome identified that person as Oswald other than a claim of physical resemblance based on these witnesses seeing Oswald on TV after the assassination. There was the gun/gun association, but that is too general. The person at the Sports Drome never was remembered to have called himself "Oswald" or "Lee" or to have spoken of being in the Marines or of having gone to Russia, or having a wife named Marina. Those are the kinds of things I am talking about. 

You will not disagree that in high-profile crime cases there will be sincere, but mistaken, witness identifications and claimed sightings based on physical resemblance alone. e.g. Marguerite Oswald thought a photo of a visitor to the Soviet embassy in Mexico City was Ruby!--based on her seeing Ruby on TV and a physical resemblance. Nothing more complicated going on there than Marguerite simply was mistaken.

Because the positive case for this individual at the Sports Drome being Oswald is weak--based on resemblance alone to Oswald as seen on television--which could or could not be correct--other information must be considered. Is the individual seen at the Sports Drome consistent with what is known of Oswald? Well, that is questionable. He was a crack shot--fired rapidly and with accuracy at the target, according to those who saw him. There is no independent confirmation Oswald was a crack shot able to fire rapidly with accuracy. This individual is seen driving a vehicle. Whereas Oswald (per argument) visited the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership for a test drive of a car, he was not simply driving around town with a vehicle in Oct-Nov 1963, according to all other reliable testimony. And the sightings at the Sports Drome are incompatible with the detailed and calendar-supported testimony of Ruth Paine regarding timeline. Of course there are judgment calls here. If you want to throw out Ruth Paine's testimony as filled with fabrications and say she was just wilfully lying on nearly everything and has never been charged with perjury, that is a theoretical possibility with any witness, but it is not my judgment concerning Ruth Paine's testimony.

There is a story that Sterling Wood later told of him and his father having given this person a ride home from the Sports Drome, speaking of Minsk, and then later post-assassination his father corresponding with Marina Oswald. What I make of that is that as a totally separate matter the Woods did have Minsk in their family history so wrote Marina after the assassination and received some note of reply from Marina, but that the guy Sterling said they encountered at the Sports Drome was not Oswald, though Sterling Wood conflated these two things years later as connected. 

Since the positive grounds for supposing the person at the Sports Drome is the weakest form of physical identification-- retroactive identification based on resemblance to someone seen on TV--and nothing substantial stronger than that--at best this is a "maybe". It certainly falls far short of stand-alone ironclad rock-solid stand-alone establishment of a fact. The "maybe" means it could be, or it could not be--like a lot of other tips and leads that pour into police departments in the wake of high-profile crime cases.

Because the timeline objection is substantial and specific, and because the positive case for an Oswald identify is weak and not strong (in terms of assessment of genre of the nature of the evidence), it must be considered that the individual seen was someone who resembled Oswald but was not Oswald. Not an impersonator! There is no evidence that individual was impersonating anyone, pretending to be anyone other than himself. He just was thought to look like the same guy several people later saw on TV. That is not impersonation. That is an issue of correct or indirect physical identification of witnesses. 

Frank Ellsworth, the BATF agent, told of seeing crack-shot German and Italian gun expert and dealer Thomas Masen, in the Dallas Police department being questioned about a gun-running charge and Ellsworth doing a double-take, for his first thought was it was Oswald! Similar height, physical build, facial appearance... But as he quickly saw moments later it was not Oswald, it was Thomas Masen, for whom there is no known or established connection to Oswald other than--in the case of Ellsworth at least that time--what some might see as physical resemblance. 

Frank Ellsworth suggested that Thomas Masen would fit very well with the individual seen at the Sports Drome firing range, and in light of the firearms expertise parallel, that suggestion, although not certain, makes excellent sense to me.

I don't understand--why the leap from a weak form of positive evidence in this case (witnesses claiming recognition of someone based on later seeing someone on TV)--to far-fetched theories of intentional impersonations or doppelgangers or that Ruth Paine fabricated her entire testimony. There is not the slightest witness testimony to suppose that the nameless Sports Drome target shooter ever claimed to be anyone other than himself.

I don't think the Sports Drome target shooter had anything to do with Oswald. I admit few things are 100% certain and in many cases the best one can do is make judgment calls. Here is my judgment call: it was not Oswald, and it was not anyone claiming to be Oswald, even though it was someone who a few persons thought looked like Oswald based on what they saw on TV. I think this has been a red herring all this time in assessment of Oswald. 

 

 

Edited by Greg Doudna
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 66
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

9 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It's almost comical that after nearly sixty years we're still playing these games and can't even get a straight yes or no answer on a simple three-word question: "Could Oswald drive?"

The answer is "kinda?" What kind of answer is that? He couldn't drive well enough in an empty parking lot to warrant further lessons, a month later he was driving surface streets at night and expressways at high speeds without incident, yet less than a month later he couldn't drive well enough to make a getaway after committing the crime of the century?

At what point do reasonable people drop the fantasy?

 

8 hours ago, Dan Troyer said:

Denny, very nice write up. 

Makes you also wonder who the 14-year-old boy was?

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him driving up that he had the 14-year-old boy-with him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; the night he got the haircut.

Nicely put, Mr. Zartman.  I believe the truth is that there were two very different "Lee Harvey Oswalds."  One DID NOT have a drivers license and was still learning to drive when Jack Ruby killed him.  The other HAD A VALID TEXAS DRIVERS LICENSE and had driven cars for some time.

Marina and the Paines clearly testified that Oswald did not drive and did not have a driver's license. It is remarkable, then, that more than thirty people told the Warren Commission, the FBI, and/or Garrison investigators that Oswald did drive. Some of these people saw (American-born LEE) Oswald's driver's license and others described the car he was driving:

PEOPLE WHO HAD KNOWLEDGE THAT LEE COULD DRIVE

Cliff Shasteen

Joyce Bostic

Leonard Hutchison

Inez Laake

Fred Moore (saw driver's license)

Gayle Scott

Malcolm Price

Peggy Smith

Floyd Guy Davis

Mrs. Ernie Isaacs

Gertrude Hunter

Margaret Budreau

Edith Whitworth

Clifford Wormser

Red Pope

FBI Agent Bob Barrett (saw driver's license)

Leo Sepulveda

DPD Captain Westbrook (saw driver's license)

Sonny Stewart

Edward Brand

Robert Janca

Garland Slack

Robert Roy

William J. Chesher

Al Bogard

Howard Price

W.M. Hannie

Sterling Wood

Mrs. Lee Bozarth (handled Oswald's driver's license)

Dr. Homer Wood

Aletha Frair (held Oswald's driver's license)

Randy Sundy

 

EDITH WHITWORTH

Edith Whitworth operated a used furniture store at 149 East Irving Boulevard and recalled that Oswald drove to her store in a "two-toned blue and white" automobile:

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him drive up in the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand-- we call it there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction was he driving the car at that time?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Driving west on a one-way street--that's a one way there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Running from east to west?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. East to west.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car did he have, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as I can remember--I wouldn't be---I wouldn't say for sure. All I can say is that I believe, you know, not paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. It was either a Ford or a Plymouth. Now, I wouldn't swear to that, but it was either one the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. Anyway, he came in and he stood--. (WC XI, 264)

Gertrude Hunter, a friend of Furniture Mart owner Edith Whitworth. Gertrude Hunter confirmed her friend's statement. She said Oswald arrived in a 1957 or 1958 two-tone blue Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from information that has been provided to us by the FBI that you were in a store operated by Mrs. Whitworth sometime in 1963--that was formerly operated by Mrs. Whitworth--at which time people who you now believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife and-children came into the store, is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that event as best you can remember them?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was after 2 o'clock and I had went down to talk to her--we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car drive up?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man driving it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were in the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. Just him and a woman and two children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody else?
Mrs. HUNTER. No one else.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'm positive, because I was sitting right there I was sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove cater-cornered up.
Mr. LIEBELER. And there are glass windows in the front of the store so that you could see right out into the street?
Mrs. HUNTER. It is a solid glass there and the door was standing open there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about what kind of car it was?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the reason I'm definite about the car--a friend of .mine in Houston--I was looking for them up and they had a car just like this and I had left a note on my mailbox that I would be at this place--- telling them if anyone come I would be at this place and when they drove up I thought that was them and it was a two-tone-blue Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year?
Mrs. HUNTER. 1957 or 1958--I won't be positive about that, but I would rather say it was about a 1957, I think. (WC XI, 254-255)

WC staffers were confused by the conflicting testimony, and so they arranged to have Marina Oswald, Gertrude Hunter, and Edith Whitworth appear together in an attempt to resolve the conflicts. Hunter and Whitworth both identified Marina as the woman they had seen arriving at the Furniture Mart in a car driven by Lee Harvey Oswald, but Marina denied everything.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to drive.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores where we went because we never went there without her. (WC XI, 280)
Edited by Jim Hargrove
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill Simpich has just informed us that part 12 of his excellent Legend series is now online at https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_12.html.

Simpich deals with several of the apparent instances of Oswald being impersonated shortly before the assassination. He makes a very plausible case that Jack Lawrence, the short-term car salesman colleague of Albert Bogard, went out of his way to publicise the reckless test drive by someone who may or may not have been Oswald.

Greg Doudna writes that the "14-year-old boy" seen by Cliff Shasteen might have been the 19-year-old Buell Wesley Frazier. That's possible, but Simpich is inclined to go with Greg Parker's suggestion that the boy was William Hootkins, who had been studying Russian with Ruth Paine and whose physique matched that of the boy ("husky" was Shasteen's description, which didn't match Frazier at all). See:

- https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1952-william-hootkins-is-innocent

- http://www.jfkconversations.com/supplement-lee-harvey-oswalds-cold-war

Incidentally, Hootkins went on to become an actor and featured in a BBC radio play about the man himself, Oswald in Russia: https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/8a1f3c3a9837441cb1d96d5648414889.

The apparent impersonations of Oswald in the Dallas area can be accounted for in various ways: some may have been genuine, some were cases of mistaken identity (sightings of Oswald at the Carousel Club or with Jack Ruby were surely of Ruby's handyman, Larry Crafard), and some featured the one and only, real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald himself. Any that were genuine would have been ad hoc events, created specifically to portray him as the type of person who might want to kill a president.

The least likely interpretation is that any of this was connected to a preposterous long-term double-doppelganger scheme which, as we have seen, could never have been implemented in the first place because those in charge of the scheme had a far more plausible way to achieve their hypothetical goals.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeremy,

Thanks, for your above links, and comments about the  "14-year-old boy" , Oswald, and Cliff Shasteen.  I read through Greg Parker's work, interesting that Ruth Paine's work with the Jewish teen Hootkins, relates to her previous work with elderly Russian/Jewish immigrants in Indiana in the 50's. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2020 at 5:05 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Nicely put, Mr. Zartman.  I believe the truth is that there were two very different "Lee Harvey Oswalds."  One DID NOT have a drivers license and was still learning to drive when Jack Ruby killed him.  The other HAD A VALID TEXAS DRIVERS LICENSE and had driven cars for some time.

...<snip>...

WC staffers were confused by the conflicting testimony, and so they arranged to have Marina Oswald, Gertrude Hunter, and Edith Whitworth appear together in an attempt to resolve the conflicts. Hunter and Whitworth both identified Marina as the woman they had seen arriving at the Furniture Mart in a car driven by Lee Harvey Oswald, but Marina denied everything.

Let me get this straight--the furniture store owner and her friend, Whitworth and Hunter, see a second Lee Harvey Oswald #2 who could drive? May I ask who by your interpretation was the woman, the two-year old girl, and the two-week-old baby girl with who you say was Lee Harvey Oswald #2 seen by Whitworth and Hunter? Are you saying Lee Harvey Oswald #2 shared Marina as wife, a two-year old girl and a baby girl born late Oct 1963, with Lee Harvey Oswald #1? Or are you thinking in terms of four instead of one doppelgangers in the furniture store? 

Separately, I may have been mistaken in my interpretation of Oswald's poor driving ability with Ruth Paine as being comparable to Oswald's reckless poor driving at the Lincoln Mercury dealership. While I think that Ruth Paine was truthful in her testimony concerning what she thought of his poor driving ability, and also that Oswald took the test drive at the dealership (on Nov 2), the reckless and scary driving at high speed remembered of Oswald at the dealership indicates a driver who knew how to drive but was reckless. People who actually barely know how to drive, drive cautiously or slowly and uncertainly, not at high speed (Denny Zartman was right). I am persuaded now that Oswald did know how to drive, despite the poor parking and maneuvering ability of a car at slow speed seen by Ruth Paine. It is separately fairly clearly established that Marina over an extended period of time concealed her ability to understand and speak English, which could only have been done with Lee's witting cooperation (that could be the background for the otherwise-inexplicable disinterest on the part of both Lee and Marina to have Marina learn English in her new land of America). For whatever reason, in parallel manner did Lee, with witting cooperation from Marina, downplay his driving expertise with Ruth Paine? Or maybe Lee did not even do that?--did he tell Ruth he did know how to drive, just had no license and no car so in that sense was his meaning of he "could not drive" to job application appointments?--and Ruth just disagreed with Lee's self-assessment concerning skill level based on what she saw? But there never was a case of freeway driving with Lee at the wheel observed by Ruth, which would be the true comparison, only parallel parking and turns which Ruth observed Lee did poorly under her scrutiny.   

Some think Ruth concealed and perjured herself in saying that she never lent Oswald her car (with the motive for that perjury which carries heavy penalty, being unwillingness to admit to being party to Oswald illegally driving if Oswald had no license), whereas in reality Ruth did lend her car to Oswald to drive. I don't think Ruth knowingly perjured herself on lending Oswald her car. A possibly better explanation is that the Whitworth and Hunter sighting of Oswald with Marina and the two girls in the furniture store was genuine, and--as heretofore unconsidered as this has been--Oswald (with Marina's knowledge) helped himself to Ruth's car keys and car one morning for the trip to the furniture store, some Saturday when Ruth was gone. The original purpose of the stop to that furniture store perhaps being--I suggest--to get his pistol (not rifle) fixed (and having nothing to do with the separate, arguably bogus, claim that Oswald had a rifle scope installed at a gun shop on a later date). On the date of the furniture store visit, perhaps Sat Nov 2?--the same day as the dealership test drive?

The other possible explanation of the furniture store/driving sighting of Oswald would be to distinguish between the testimony of Whitworth--the business owner, who is credible--and her friend Hunter, whose Houston relatives told the FBI that the Hunter family knew her as not credible and made up stories. Whitworth in her testimony made clear--said explicitly--that she could not attest to having personally seen Oswald drive to or from the store, that if she had said that in an early FBI statement she got that from Hunter, not from what she personally saw. The Oswald-driver aspect of that witness-testimony episode therefore rests solely on Hunter, the less-reliable witness. Then one could consider some driver other than Oswald waiting outside, driving the Oswald family on these errands, other than Ruth since Ruth was adamant that she had nothing to do with that visit. Or, Oswald was the driver and either had borrowed Ruth's car without Ruth's knowledge, or some other borrowed car. On the date of the visit--again distinguish the two witnesses: Whitworth the business owner/reliable witness does not know, and the basis for putting that on a weekday when Lee would not have been in Irving seems to come from the less-reliable Hunter based on something related to an expected arrival of Hunter's Houston relatives--a date that FBI found upon checking with Hunter's Houston relatives, the relatives said was flat wrong and impossible. 

In favor of the simplest explanation, that Oswald borrowed Ruth's car without Ruth's knowledge, and Marina knew it, would be that Marina, by my reading, may have been deceptive in denying knowledge of having been in Whitworth's store or recognizing either of the two women when confronted with Whitworth and Hunter in the same room. The motive for the deception, on Marina's part, would be because it had been done behind Ruth's back and had been kept secret up to that point, and Marina was still sticking to that story. This is of course conjecture, but a possible reading of this that I see. 

But however these specifics are interpreted, I agree with Jeremy Bojczuk, there was only one Lee Harvey Oswald with at most one-off specific impersonations if at all. If there had been two actual individuals named Lee Harvey Oswalds, each having the same legal name living in the Dallas area in the fall of 1963--legal names--each with a baby daughter born in October 1963--public records surely would have made that unambiguously clear by now. 

Two incidental details from that furniture store episode of interest: first, Oswald's claim that he will be coming into money to buy furniture and would be needing some soon. This corresponds with other indications, on the money end e.g. what he said to Bogard at the Lincoln Mercury dealership, and separately, my proposed interpretation of what LHO carried with Buell Wesley Frazer to work the morning of Nov 22 and the two package mailings.

The second detail I notice is Whitworth's testimony of how Marina with Oswald in her furniture store--which I take to have been Marina despite Marina's denial--showed complete disinterest in Lee's interest in furniture. Lee was wanting to reunite with Marina and his family living with him just as soon as that could be done. Lee suggested to Marina the evening of Nov 21 that they rent an apartment the very next day--and that he would buy her a washing machine too--and Marina stalled and rebuffed, saying "wait until after Christmas". Marina's response to Oswald--and in the furniture store--suggest to me that whereas Oswald foresaw reuniting with Marina in a home living together, it is possible that was not Marina's emerging vision of her future. Did Marina envision remaining separated from Lee for a bit longer and ultimately divorcing and making a life independent from Lee? That is the subtle clue I pick up from the detail of Marina's (according to Whitworth, a reliable witness sensitive to customers' nuances of behavior in her store) absolute disinterest in any furniture items that Whitworth tried to show them, and in which Lee showed an interest. 

Edited by Greg Doudna
Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of the Sports Drome how about Garland Slack's Warren Commission testimony?

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh10/pdf/WH10_Slack.pdf

He goes into great detail about Oswald's rifle at the Sports Drome not being the same as the one found at TSBD.

I also find his statement from Nov 22nd quite interesting since he was in  Dealey Plaza. It gives the impression the shot may have come from further inside of a building than from a rifle hanging outside of a window.

When the sound of this shot came, it sounded to me like this shot came from away back or from within a building. I have heard this same sort of sound when a shot has come from within a cave, as I have been on many big game hunts.

/s/ G. G. Slack

so find his statement

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, John Deignan said:

Speaking of the Sports Drome how about Garland Slack's Warren Commission testimony?

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh10/pdf/WH10_Slack.pdf

He goes into great detail about Oswald's rifle at the Sports Drome not being the same as the one found at TSBD.

I also find his statement from Nov 22nd quite interesting since he was in  Dealey Plaza. It gives the impression the shot may have come from further inside of a building than from a rifle hanging outside of a window.

When the sound of this shot came, it sounded to me like this shot came from away back or from within a building. I have heard this same sort of sound when a shot has come from within a cave, as I have been on many big game hunts.

/s/ G. G. Slack

so find his statement

Could be the reason why lots of people said the first shot sounded like a backfire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...