Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Richard Booth said:

Pretty much anything relating to a motive in the Tippit murder is going to be speculation and that is both implied and understood when discussing the matter.

We're talking about a hypothetical motive for presumed unnamed conspirators. The only way in which discussion of that is not speculation is if your source is one of the conspirators, which is also implied and understood to be unlikely.

*the sound of hairs being split among several posters*

Edited by David Andrews
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

51 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Richard - about a year ago I subscribed to something, maybe newspapers.com - can’t recall if that was it - in order to see what I could find in print about Otto Skorzeny. That was quite interesting. Then I tried Jack Crichton and came up with only a little. I was trying to dig up what I could on his 488th Military Intelligence Detachment, which sometimes goes by slightly different names. I found that I didn’t know how to use search words. I was sure there would be more than there was. Have you figured out the search engine particulars? Is that where you are looking?
 

I'm using a few different tools for clippings: Newspapers.com, Newspaperarchive.com, ProQuest and various public library databases which have archives of various newspapers. 

For the subject I research, it's been enough to simply search for "McVeigh" as any article about the OKC bombing is going to have his name. It helps that this is a relatively uncommon name. So I don't have any tips with respect to search engine savvy. The biggest tip I have is narrowing you rdate range. In my research, I simply narrowed the range to gather reports on a month-by-month basis for every month after April 19, 1995. Sometimes I have to search using other keywords. Most often this simply involves lots of time, lots of sifting through everything to find what you need.

For what you are looking for I would be searching using the term "military intelligence" and I would do a little bit of research to determine what the probable date range is for articles on that subject. 

What you're looking for is a very specific thing, with only a handful of reports covering it. So this would simply take a lot of time and a lot of sifting.

Regarding time: I've spent up to 8 hours a day archiving and creating PDFs of newspaper reports on the subject I'm researching. But it has been worth it: after 2 years, I now have thousands of reports in my own database, and I search my own archive now using PowerGREP when I need a citation or need to check the articles to see which ones might say what. 

The time put in is directly linked to the usefulness of what you're working on. 

To contrast, the clippings I found on the JFK case that were unusual or interesting were the result of targeted date searches and I spent maybe 1 hour, and in doing so, found about 4 clippings that were interesting. Increase that to 8 hours time and you'd probably find about 10-20 reports worthy of additional follow-up. 

My favorite part of research is the digging... its rewards are solitary

 

Edited by Richard Booth
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is another clipping that I took an interest in. I seem to recall reading or hearing something about this before. 

The immediate question is "was this because so many people made calls at once" or .. "was this an expected action that was part of a coup"

11/23/63

l8XOiUr.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, David Andrews said:

If you ever find anything mentioning John O'Neill's involvement in the OKBOM  investigation at FBI, PM me.

I'm also very interested in O'Neill. If I get anything more about him I'll send it to you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, David Andrews said:

If you look up Harvey, or perhaps "William King Harvey," in the back threads, there's been a lot of discussion of whether he was at the Oswald operating room, and whether he was spotted en route to the US by a reliable acquaintance.

David,

Thanks on that.  I will look into this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

John,

I was intrigued by the idea of a "Baltic" Oswald.

I collected a few notes along those lines:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

WC testimony February 3, 1964

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

HSCA testimony 1977?

Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't. When he asked to dance, we just talked very little.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at that--not during the dancing, no.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably.

 

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina

 

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

Mr. BOUHE - I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER - He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE - A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE - I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE - Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/raigorod.htm

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"---yes; it signifies that.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gregoryp.htm

Peter Paul Gregory, a native of Chita, Siberia, told the Warren Commission that “I thought that Lee Oswald spoke [Russian] with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent….It would be rather unusual…for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not.”

 

Posted in the Education Forum by Jack White April 2, 2010

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15686-did-harvey-return-from-russia/page/3/

“I am still doing comparisons of the Russian LHO with the Dallas LHO. Some depict the same person, some do not. The point is...we do not really know what the variety of LHOs in Russia represents...a substitute or doctored photos, or both. But the photos show something suspicious was going on. This leaves us to wonder...did the fake defector Harvey return to the US, or was a Russian impostor substituted for the US impostor?

Jack”

 

Steve Thomas


 

Steve,

These are really interesting.  I am aware of material such as this an more.  It makes up the basis for why I think as I do.  I am a believer in the Harvey and Lee theory.  Actually, it is more than a theory.  I get into trouble with the Harvey and Lee folks on some on my notions which are different from theirs.  Generally, the issue is whether Oswald spoke Russian very poorly or did he speak Russian fluently.  Some witnesses say he spoke poorly and others fluently.  

To me, he difference in language ability doesn't suggest poor or faulty witnesses, but the presence of two Oswalds.  This is not in accord with Harvey and Lee theory.  They allow only Harvey in Russia.  

I guess this makes me an outsider these days, but I am not going to change my ideas.  It is what makes sense to me.

I'm like the Covid 19 virus percentages in KY.  22 deaths per 100,000.  That's a percentage chance of not dying of the virus of 99.9998 per cent.  Said another way you have a .0002 per cent chance of dying of the virus in KY.  Don't get me wrong.  People are dying of Covid 19 in KY.  It is simply not a pandemic.  It is a political pandemic.  

My support for the theory of Harvey and Lee is similar.  About 99.9 percent.  John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove have it nailed.  Well, except for my exceptions which for the most part are very minor. 

Edited by John Butler
grammar
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Butler said:

David,

Thanks on that.  I will look into this.

Like almost everything about Oswald and the assassination it's a maybe or maybe not.

Paul Brancato 6 6 2019- “Maybe, but it seems everyone is missing my point. Why would Harvey’s deputy have to spell out the exact flight route? Starting point Rome, ending point Dallas. Where is your destination today Mr. Harvey? Why, Dallas Texas, by way of Chicago. Seriously, why does it matter if it’s a direct flight?

Karl Kinkaski 12 21 2019-

“Quote Trauma room one, by Charles A. Crenshaw M.D. p. 132

(Time 24.11.1963. Place, Trauma room two, where Crenshaw and others were trying to save Oswalds live.)

»I looked up, an took a deep breath. When I did, I spotted a large man across the room, whom I didn’t recognized. HE RESEMLED OLIVER HARDY IN A SCRUB SUIT WITH NO MASK. MOST ARLARMING THERE WAS A PISTOL HANGING FROM HIS BACK POCKET AND IF IT HAD FALLEN TO THE FLOOR IT COULD HAVE DISCHARGED AND KILLED SOMEONE.

I never knew how he got into the operating room and who gave him the scrub suit.(...) (Oswald) was fighting for his live, while a pistol packed intruder looked on. I didn’t know what to think, except that we had to get a cap and mask to the son of a bitch before he contaminated the entire room whit bacteria. (…) ...I wanted to throw out his ass of the operating room, but I was afraid that he would shoot me...I handed him the cap and the mask. He put it on without comment.”

Someone wanted to make sure Oswald didn't survive.

Edited by John Butler
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

This is another clipping that I took an interest in. I seem to recall reading or hearing something about this before. 

The immediate question is "was this because so many people made calls at once" or .. "was this an expected action that was part of a coup"

11/23/63

l8XOiUr.png

I was going to post an article I had regarding the Washington phone line blackout but I can't find it right now.

The Oxnard call...

JFKA-Oxnard-Call-Pt-2.png

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Found a really interesting clipping that is unusual in that it presents a great many facts about this case that you typically do not find in the newspaper. It has a very pro-conspiracy POV.  Some things the piece covers: Oswald's link to DeBrueys, link to Harlendale street, mentions Richard Nagell, talks about Oswald at the Carousel Club, talks about the Odio incident, just many different things.

NOTE: I suspect some of these facts might be incorrect. I noticed a couple that seemed "off" -- maybe other forum members who know more than I do, and can spot any errors? One of them is, I think, the claim Oswald was "FBI informant S-179" (see here)

There was a post here that featured a list of the "top false leads" or "top 10 incorrect things" but I can't quite remember exactly the title or where that is on the forum. I know the FBI informant S-179 thing was on that list. 

Enjoy!

Dropbox link to full-page article: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7611zmt60c9fqpk/1978_11_26-Baltimore_Sun-Lee_Oswald_the_link_to_the_FBI.pdf?dl=0

The Baltimore Sun - 26 Nov 1978 (section K2)
Lee Oswald -- the link to the FBI
by Steve Parks

EXCERPTS in italics, my comments in blue:

"The FBI had an informer in Dallas who was a native of New Orleans. He was experienced in "penetration" and held one of the highest clearances possible. His name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and, from September, 1962, until his death, November 24, 1963, he was on retainer for $200 a month as FBI informer No. S-179. He was recruited by Special Agent John W. Fain, but his contact in Dallas was Agent John B. Hosty, Jr., whose name, phone number and license-plate number appeared in Oswald's notebook."

[...]

"At the same time, Oswald was serving as an Army intelligence informer--No. 110669."

[...]

"The FBI contacted Oswald again August 16, 1962" ... "Oswald agreed to become an FBI informer after this meeting."

[...]

"DeMohrenschildt got him a job with a photographic company. There Oswald learned the art of micro-dotting."

[...]

"In April 1963, Lee and Marina Oswald returned to his hometown, New Orleans, where he got a job greasing coffee machines at the William T. Reily Company. There Oswald was approached by Richard Case Nagell, a CIA contact who said he knew of Oswald's espionage background and invited him to meet with a group called the Bravo Club which was looking for soldiers to join the Cuban underground."

[...]

"During this period, Oswald, according to the barkeep at the Habana Bar & Lounge on Decatur street, met regularly with FBI agent Warren C. DeBruys."

[...]

"Finally, Oswald checked in with the American Embassy and asked to see the CIA station chief, who at that time was E. Howard Hunt." (I have never heard of this before re visiting American Embassy and asking for CIA station chief -- I know that Hunt was temporary chief of station in Mexico City for a few months then, including the time in which Oswald was supposedly in Mexico City. Wonder what Parks' source was for this detail. --RB)

[...]

"Lee, meanwhile, stayed in Dallas where, according to a cab driver and a nightclub entertainer, he visited Jack Ruby's Carousel Club at least three times. Other witnesses place Oswald at the headquarters of Alpha 66 on Harlendale street in Dallas"

[...]

"Within minutes after the assassination, police sealed off the depository building and searched it. They found three persons who were not employed there--two were reporters and the third was Capt. James Powell, an office of the 112th Army Intelligence Group of Texas. Police also found that 11 employees had left the premises, including "Harvey Lee Oswald," who was listed among Army Intelligence's then-active informers. Immediately after interviewing Powell, police put out a bulletin naming Oswald as the suspected assassin."

[...]

There is a great deal more in this piece. At the bottom of the piece it says that the writer, Steve Parks, was working on a book about the assassination. I haven't heard of him but perhaps other forum-members have. 

T5s1c1R.jpg]

Same piece is in the Weisberg archives:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/P Disk/Parks Steve Baltimore Sun/Item 03.pdf

 

Edited by Richard Booth
Link to post
Share on other sites

Another piece by Steve Parks at The Baltimore Sun

Baltimore Sun | 21 Nov 1976
Lee Harvey Oswald and his CIA connection
by Steve Parks

pg1

kzWz59u.png

pg2

tkT2sZF.jpg

 

Full article PDF:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/usrmbtmbu7s6wzb/1976_11_21-Baltimore_Sun-Lee_Harvey_Oswald's_CIA_Connection.pdf?dl=0

 

The piece is mostly a short biography of LHO and it covers his time in the marines, his Russian language proficiency, his defection, and his return to the states. Throughout, the writer speculates that Oswald may have been a CIA asset, saying that this could explain some things about his life and defection that stand out as highly irregular.

Would be interesting to talk to Steve Parks if he's still alive today to see what ever became of his book, what his interest in the case was and if he's kept up on it.

For a mainstream media journalist, Parks shows a level of interest in this case that you just don't see today. In today's news, everything is really surface-level deep, unsophisticated, shallow, and generally uninformative.

Today, if a person wants to read anything with a level of detail that is beyond a superficial narrative, anything remotely close to journalism like this, you have to go elsewhere. 

In digging through old pieces from the 1970s on this case, the stark contrast between reporting then, and reporting now, is staggering. 

One of the chapters in my book about the Oklahoma City bombing is an analysis of the media coverage of the case where I go through all of the news cycles on the case and discuss the different "talking points" or "lead stories" that occupied the news cycle on the OKBOMB case, documenting how the narrative evolved over the months and years since April 19th, 1995. In writing that chapter, I was stunned to find how short of a memory the media has: elements of the story that were regular in April or October of 1995 were forgotten by the following year, to be either replace or supplanted with a new truth that exists in spite of previous truths.

--Richard

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...