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JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred


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12 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The other thing we can't measure from Altgens position is the horizontal line from windshield to JFK which would lead back to the shooters location in the South knoll.

Thanks for the comment Chris,

This strange lineup of hole and throat appears to go way up into the sky.  It's as if this was shot from a plane or helicopter.  There were neither planes or helicopters in Dealey Plaza that day. 

So, I have to disagree on the South Knoll since it is down hill (slightly) from the Stemmons sign area. 

12 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

you need two measurements to get the horizontal line correct. The dist to JFK from the windshield and how far to the side of the hole is he sitting

Those measurements could be taken if one accepts numbers that are close, but not exact.  It would be interesting if you did a rough estimate.

Chris, I thought the line might be strange because I magnified the Altgens 6 shot.  Tried it again with the photo at normal scale and this one seems even steeper:

altgens-6-hole-throat-line-up-no-2.jpg  

It looks like a shot from the top of a tall building.  Totally out of place and reasoning here.  I have no explanations.  Any one who does please reply.

Here is an example of an imaginary shot from the Sniper's Nest to Houston Street as an example of angle.

hughes-6-floor-imaginary-shot.jpg

They are similar.  It is if the throat wound/hole in the windshield is shot from a tall building.

Don't get me wrong here.  This is just a speculative endeavor.  I believe, as I have said many times in the past, that  no one fired a shot from the Sniper's Nest.  There are plenty witnesses that say that.

It's strange and a mystery.  I hope someone can clarify. 

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9 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks for the comment Chris,

This strange lineup of hole and throat appears to go way up into the sky.  It's as if this was shot from a plane or helicopter.  There were neither planes or helicopters in Dealey Plaza that day. 

So, I have to disagree on the South Knoll since it is down hill (slightly) from the Stemmons sign area. 

Those measurements could be taken if one accepts numbers that are close, but not exact.  It would be interesting if you did a rough estimate.

Chris, I thought the line might be strange because I magnified the Altgens 6 shot.  Tried it again with the photo at normal scale and this one seems even steeper:

altgens-6-hole-throat-line-up-no-2.jpg  

It looks like a shot from the top of a tall building.  Totally out of place and reasoning here.  I have no explanations.  Any one who does please reply.

Here is an example of an imaginary shot from the Sniper's Nest to Houston Street as an example of angle.

hughes-6-floor-imaginary-shot.jpg

They are similar.  It is if the throat wound/hole in the windshield is shot from a tall building.

Don't get me wrong here.  This is just a speculative endeavor.  I believe, as I have said many times in the past, that  no one fired a shot from the Sniper's Nest.  There are plenty witnesses that say that.

It's strange and a mystery.  I hope someone can clarify. 

And there was no Blimp either!  I have mapped out the trajectory to a fairly high degree. Using a side view from the motorcade to get the height difference between JFK's throat and the windshield gives the rise. (Actually it sort of gives the run too so just drawing a line from the hole to JFK gives the slope angle.) Altgens view did not allow for a measurement of the run. I am correcting myself here, some photos do allow an estimate for both run and rise measurements.

I used  an overhead diagram to get the lateral track from the hole to JFK. The trajectory plots back to the South knoll where the underpass meets the Commerce st sidewalk. It may be possible to place the shooter about 14 feet higher(About one degree difference in the Trajectory) which would be a level shot from the Annex parking lot. The Sun is behind you and the limo is at its closest point to moving straight at the shooter at 223. If the shooter was prone in the back of a covered truck that was backed into the northern side of the parking lot it would have been great cover. Plus the truck could just pull out and be Southbound on Huston in seconds. Problem is you have to stretch things a bit to get the trajectory to come from a place that high.
As to the strange sight lines you got from A6 and the Hughes film it is due to the lack of information available in those 2d images. The a6 image does give us the distance from the hole to JFK and without both the correct rise and RUN you will not get an accurate slope angle. Consider that Altgens was standing only about ten feet left of the bullet trajectory.
Imagine if Altgens had fired the bullet himself and it came from his camera lens at the moment he took the photo, what would the trajectory line look like? It would be a single dot!! No line at all. The rise would be visible to you but you would see none of the run.

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13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

And there was no Blimp either! 

Chris,

No planes, helicopters, blimps, or UFOs with little green assassins.  After thinking about it the South Knoll and southern Triple Underpass area seems reasonable.

The hole in the windshield is in the left half of the windshield near the mirror.  President Kennedy is sitting in the right half of the windshield area (so to speak).  He is in the right rear passenger seat.  This gives the direction of the trajectory for the hole shot.  Left to right gives the area of the South Knoll and southern end of the Triple Underpass new acceptability. 

However, a shot from the a truck on Commerce seem to be at a lower elevation.  The p. limo at the Stemmons sign area is pointed down hill at 3 degrees if memory serves.  Here's the Cancellare photo showing the truck on Commerce as down hill from the Stemmons sign area.  This is probably 100 feet or so down hill from the sign area at a lower elevation.  In other words from the truck would be shooting upward.  A shot from the parking lot is higher elevation and might be the correct height for the shot.  It would give a straighter or more level shot.  It would be more or less the same as shooting from the railroad bridge which might center the shot better.

Cancellare-James-Tague.jpg  

Here is a more sensible trajectory angle.  It is from Z 228 (for a clearer frame) as versus Altgens 6.

z-228-altgens-compare-of-throat-shot-ang

Does the Z 228 trajectory make more sense than Altgens?  I don't know where this angle ends up.

Edited by John Butler
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16 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

No planes, helicopters, blimps, or UFOs with little green assassins.  After thinking about it the South Knoll and southern Triple Underpass area seems reasonable.

The hole in the windshield is in the left half of the windshield near the mirror.  President Kennedy is sitting in the right half of the windshield area (so to speak).  He is in the right rear passenger seat.  This gives the direction of the trajectory for the hole shot.  Left to right gives the area of the South Knoll and southern end of the Triple Underpass new acceptability. 

However, a shot from the a truck on Commerce seem to be at a lower elevation.  The p. limo at the Stemmons sign area is pointed down hill at 3 degrees if memory serves.  Here's the Cancellare photo showing the truck on Commerce as down hill from the Stemmons sign area.  This is probably 100 feet or so down hill from the sign area at a lower elevation.  In other words from the truck would be shooting upward.  A shot from the parking lot is higher elevation and might be the correct height for the shot.  It would give a straighter or more level shot.  It would be more or less the same as shooting from the railroad bridge which might center the shot better.

Cancellare-James-Tague.jpg  

Here is a more sensible trajectory angle.  It is from Z 228 (for a clearer frame) as versus Altgens 6.

z-228-altgens-compare-of-throat-shot-ang

Does the Z 228 trajectory make more sense than Altgens?  I don't know where this angle ends up.

I have considered the truck on Commerce before but I was talking about a truck in the Annex parking lot. Your line in the Z film won't be right unless you are above. If you drew a line from his throat thru Kellerman's head and out thru the passenger side it would look exactly like the line you drew. You can't represent  a N.S.E or W line from the side, has to be from overhead to be correct

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5 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I have considered the truck on Commerce before but I was talking about a truck in the Annex parking lot. Your line in the Z film won't be right unless you are above. If you drew a line from his throat thru Kellerman's head and out thru the passenger side it would look exactly like the line you drew. You can't represent  a N.S.E or W line from the side, has to be from overhead to be correct

Thanks for the clarification Chris,

So, the South Knoll is your favored location for this windshield shot.  But, could that extend over to the railroad bridge, say above Commerce St.?

From a truck there in the parking lot shot could be made.  Unless the p. limo is placed perfectly I would say there would be a greater variance in direction of the lineup.

I'll try to find one of those illustrations by Specter of someone else showing an overhead view of the p. limo.    

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9 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks for the clarification Chris,

So, the South Knoll is your favored location for this windshield shot.  But, could that extend over to the railroad bridge, say above Commerce St.?

From a truck there in the parking lot shot could be made.  Unless the p. limo is placed perfectly I would say there would be a greater variance in direction of the lineup.

I'll try to find one of those illustrations by Specter of someone else showing an overhead view of the p. limo.    

Chris,

This is not the best illustration due to the p. limo still being at an angle.  However, it is sufficient to show that there is a greater degree of the trajectory of the neck wound to the windshield hole that shows a SW bearing toward the area of the South Grassy Knoll/Triple Underpass.

p-limo-overhead-3.jpg

A complete overhead view would probably show a greater variance to the SW toward the South Grassy Knoll/Triple Underpass then the one above.

That needs to be tied down.  I keep mentioning the area of the Triple Underpass as possibly a shooting area.  If that idea can't be eliminated then that brings up the problem of a train (The Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza) on the railroad bridge and shooting from there.   There is a big argument on that.  I favor the train being there for various reasons already discussed several times.  

Let me know what you think.  

 

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John, here is an image I posted on a different thread from this sight. It shows the angle from the limo to the knoll form overhead.  You can redraw that line on an overhead map and see where it lands. I'm at my limit for images on this sight at the moment.  I really mean it when I say you can't find a direction from a photo that is not above looking down. That is a hard core rule so none of the attempts to draw a line to the knoll will ever work. A diagonal line across the image will not denote height not N,S,E,W.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26726-anyone-care-to-disprove-this-throat-shot-scientific-theory-from-the-south-knoll/?tab=comments#comment-429430            

SCROLL DOWN TO THE MAP.

The train reported by the cop on the West side of the overpass is interesting but hard to accept.
The disappearing train in the train yard is explainable. From the top of the plaza around 430 HASL you can see the train in the yard, but by the time you are around the Stemmons sign maybe 421 HASL you can no longer see the train. I did  lines of sight and verified the wall hides the train in the yard below around 420 feet above sea level.
 I know you posted a tread on the train seen on the overpass in a photo but to my mind it was the background not a train.
 It is also very hard to place the gunman up in the annex parking lot without stretching the numbers on the vertical angle of the trajectory thru the windshield. A gunman in the train would be even higher.
 I originally placed the gunman there till I saw David Lifton's results that put the trajectory down on the commerce sidewalk. I re examined my result and found a mistake. After that I agreed with Lifton's results.
 My mistake was based on the limo being at 45 degrees from West. I assumed that if the slope of the plaza was 4 degrees when pointed directly West and zero if the limo pointed South(South would mean the limo was sideways in the plaza and then the 4 degrees would only be a side to side lean. I assumed at 45 degrees the slope would be half.  2 degrees forward angle and 2 degrees side to side. But that is wrong. If a limo started the motion when facing directly West then swung the car toward the South  the front would trace  45 degrees of a circle. 45 degrees of arc as it turns from West to South.)  When it starts the limo the front of the limo is moving move South, then after it pasess the 45 degree point it starts moving more East than South. The result is the direction of the limo does not change from West to South in a consistent manner. It starts slow the increases it change of slope after the 45 degree mark. So at the throat shot the limo faced 45 degrees ssouth of West  but the slope only decreased by one degree. One degree is about 14 feet difference at the South knoll. So the drops the shooter location down to the Commerce sidewalk.
  There was a documentary recently about both shots coming from the Annex parking lot but they never get into calculating the shooters height o I don;t know their thinking on the issue.

Here is that doc on Youtube.

 

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15 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John, here is an image I posted on a different thread from this sight. It shows the angle from the limo to the knoll form overhead.  You can redraw that line on an overhead map and see where it lands. I'm at my limit for images on this sight at the moment.  I really mean it when I say you can't find a direction from a photo that is not above looking down. That is a hard core rule so none of the attempts to draw a line to the knoll will ever work. A diagonal line across the image will not denote height not N,S,E,W.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26726-anyone-care-to-disprove-this-throat-shot-scientific-theory-from-the-south-knoll/?tab=comments#comment-429430            

SCROLL DOWN TO THE MAP.

The train reported by the cop on the West side of the overpass is interesting but hard to accept.
The disappearing train in the train yard is explainable. From the top of the plaza around 430 HASL you can see the train in the yard, but by the time you are around the Stemmons sign maybe 421 HASL you can no longer see the train. I did  lines of sight and verified the wall hides the train in the yard below around 420 feet above sea level.
 I know you posted a tread on the train seen on the overpass in a photo but to my mind it was the background not a train.
 It is also very hard to place the gunman up in the annex parking lot without stretching the numbers on the vertical angle of the trajectory thru the windshield. A gunman in the train would be even higher.
 I originally placed the gunman there till I saw David Lifton's results that put the trajectory down on the commerce sidewalk. I re examined my result and found a mistake. After that I agreed with Lifton's results.
 My mistake was based on the limo being at 45 degrees from West. I assumed that if the slope of the plaza was 4 degrees when pointed directly West and zero if the limo pointed South(South would mean the limo was sideways in the plaza and then the 4 degrees would only be a side to side lean. I assumed at 45 degrees the slope would be half.  2 degrees forward angle and 2 degrees side to side. But that is wrong. If a limo started the motion when facing directly West then swung the car toward the South  the front would trace  45 degrees of a circle. 45 degrees of arc as it turns from West to South.)  When it starts the limo the front of the limo is moving move South, then after it pasess the 45 degree point it starts moving more East than South. The result is the direction of the limo does not change from West to South in a consistent manner. It starts slow the increases it change of slope after the 45 degree mark. So at the throat shot the limo faced 45 degrees ssouth of West  but the slope only decreased by one degree. One degree is about 14 feet difference at the South knoll. So the drops the shooter location down to the Commerce sidewalk.
  There was a documentary recently about both shots coming from the Annex parking lot but they never get into calculating the shooters height o I don;t know their thinking on the issue.

Here is that doc on Youtube.

 

Chris,

This explains exactly what I have been trying to get at.  And, that is an excellent job.  Except for one thing.  This is based on Z frame 215 at the Stemmons sign.

There are many people including myself who believe that the shooting started much earlier than Z frame 215.  I have 105 witnesses who said shooting occurred on Elm/Houston and in front of the TSBD.  

David Josephs, an excellent researcher, believes the first shot was a Z frame 160.  I am sure he will correct me if I have that wrong.  I go further than that by saying shooting occurred in the Zapruder Gap.  

Is there a way to reset this calculation for Z frame 160 based on D. Josephs work which puts the p. limo at the SW corner of the TSBD.  And, at Z frame 133 to represent shooting in the Zapruder Gap.

Josephs, if I am reading correctly his recent statements, places the car stop in the Zapruder Gap at the intersection.  This if I am recalling correctly is where Truly said it was.  

So, there is good reason to believe Z frame 215 may be incorrect and for the purposes of research alternative locations should be calculated.

Keep up the good work,

 

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On 10/21/2020 at 8:25 AM, John Butler said:

Thanks for the clarification Chris,

So, the South Knoll is your favored location for this windshield shot.  But, could that extend over to the railroad bridge, say above Commerce St.?

From a truck there in the parking lot shot could be made.  Unless the p. limo is placed perfectly I would say there would be a greater variance in direction of the lineup.

I'll try to find one of those illustrations by Specter of someone else showing an overhead view of the p. limo.    

John,

I live here in north Texas, and have taken several pics in and around DP.  Here is one pic I think is useful to your reply here that shows the whole area from above the Commerce Street section of the bridge over the TUP, just about directly above where James Tague was standing, about 15'-20' from the end of the bridge.  The 2nd maroon vehicle in the center lane is right over the first "X" in the street; the maroon car downhill from that one is over the "head shot" X.  

F6MD8Vm.jpg

This picture is from the southern end of the walkway, right at the gate leading to the parking lot behind the southern knoll:

XduY43B.jpg

Thanks

Rick

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19 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

John,

I live here in north Texas, and have taken several pics in and around DP.  Here is one pic I think is useful to your reply here that shows the whole area from above the Commerce Street section of the bridge over the TUP, just about directly above where James Tague was standing, about 15'-20' from the end of the bridge.  The 2nd maroon vehicle in the center lane is right over the first "X" in the street; the maroon car downhill from that one is over the "head shot" X.  

F6MD8Vm.jpg

This picture is from the southern end of the walkway, right at the gate leading to the parking lot behind the southern knoll:

XduY43B.jpg

Thanks

Rick

Rick,

Thanks.  The photos are appreciated.  Will keep copies.  There's is a great thread on this by Chris Barnard.  I don't see how I initially missed this or forgot it.  It was posted in Sept. 

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10 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

It's not just my opinion.  The cracked windshield is not the same as the one in the p. limo on Nov. 22, 1963.  In reference I give you Altgens 6 and 7 and this:

David Winnett says:

That flies in the face of a videotaped interview with the manager of Ford’s glass division in Michigan who says that on the Monday morning following the Friday assassination he was shocked to come to work to find the Lincoln JFK was killed in was in his shop. LBJ ordered the car flown to Detroit to be completely rebuilt. This man said that there was a through and through bullet hole in the windshield that showed a frontal entry. He was ordered to “shred” the windshield, which he did. This interview can be seen in the video series “The Men Who Killed Kennedy”.

There are also witnesses who saw the hole.  

Next argument:  South Knoll or railroad bridge?  I am making a case for the railroad bridge.

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Here's my humble attempt to calculate a 15 degree angle form positions further back then Z Frame 225 at the Stemmons sign.  What I tried to do here is show that positions further back in front of the TSBD show a different result than the South Knoll:

mark-williams-photo-a.jpg

IMO, the railroad bridge can not easily be ruled out.

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On 10/24/2020 at 6:20 AM, John Butler said:

Here's my humble attempt to calculate a 15 degree angle form positions further back then Z Frame 225 at the Stemmons sign.  What I tried to do here is show that positions further back in front of the TSBD show a different result than the South Knoll:

mark-williams-photo-a.jpg

IMO, the railroad bridge can not easily be ruled out.

John. when the limo is turning onto Elm the trajectory moves across the TSB but I don't think it gets as high as the second floor. When it is still in the intersection the limo is level. It does not start down the Elm slope till after the crosswalk. It is hard to tell just exactly where Elm gets to a full 3.5 degrees slope but from the intersection there is no shot from the Triple overpass. The angle from the windshield hole to JFK's would be about 3 degrees and extending that angle to the overpass puts it  around 30 feet above the tracks.  Very rough estimate.

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