JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred

[Chris Bristow]

22 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Bowers reported seeing a single tramp in an open gondola car as a train he had routed into the yard and out across the bridge came in from downtown Dallas (he was looking down on the car and the tramp was in the open).  He makes no mention of seeing tramps taken from a boxcar.  Whether the tramps were taken in after a search of the entire yard on his side or from the yard on the other side of the bridge is unclear.  If they were taken from a boxcar on the train he reported it would have been coming into the yard, not parked in it or coming into it from across the bridge.  That's the best I can figure from his reports.

Thanks, if the tramps retreated to the boxcar after the shooting they would have had to cross the tracks on the North side of the overpass and that long walk to the Western most racks would have made them visible to the railroad workers on the overpass. I never knew the boxcars were so far West. It makes the whole scenario hard to imagine.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John, the tower is not visible in the McIntyre photo of JFK, it is visible in the 2nd McIntyre photo of the follow up car. In the photo of the tower taken from in front of the TSB the East tower is visible but the West side is blocked by the boxcar so the boxcar was definitely under the tower but there is no boxcar there in McIntyre 2
   The side of the tower has 3 sections and the boxcar is 2 1/2 sections tall. You can see all 3 sections on both sides of the tower from the McIntyre 2 photo so McIntyre was not too low to see the boxcar. If the boxcar was there it would have been almost completely visible. Notice in Mc2 we can see the top of the Southern most Pullman car which was on the East track. So from the Mc2 position we could see all the trains.
The trains on the overpass would have also been visible. Some google Earth images from the Mc2 position show trains were visible above the ' Old Charter" billboard too. The Pullman cars we can see in Mc2 are farther East than the part of the track behind the billboard, the trains behind the billboard extended well above the billboard from the Mc2 position.
 The only trains visible during the assassination in Nix and other photos taken from elevations above approx 427 hasl were of the Pullman cars and its windows. Not sure if you meant box or Pullman car.
     The area left of the pergola has always looked like an alteration to me. The sharp line of the side of the pergola add to the effect. But what would they be hiding there if the boxcars and tramps were part of the intended misdirection of the assassins?
 I did not know the cop on the north overpass changed his story to include the freight train foster said he saw. I assumed Foster lied to cover up something but what a crazy lie to say he saw a freight train if there was not one.
 At frames 160 and  225 the boxcar shot would be blocked by the parastyle and the pergola. Maybe they could have a shot through  the parastlye windows but that seems untenable. If the boxcar was really under the tower there was likely no shot. If it was farther south it was removed from McIntyre and other images but would still have to shoot over the knoll fence yet under the trees in front of the fence.

Chris,

You make a lot of good points.  I will think about this tomorrow in more detail. 

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks, if the tramps retreated to the boxcar after the shooting they would have had to cross the tracks on the North side of the overpass and that long walk to the Western most racks would have made them visible to the railroad workers on the overpass. I never knew the boxcars were so far West. It makes the whole scenario hard to imagine.

Chris,

The Allen and McIntyre 2 photo show the same area.  They show the train with passenger and boxcars on the Pergola spur line directly near the parking lot at the TSBD/Railroad Yards.  I can’t see a set of boxcars on the tracks under the signal towers in McIntyre 2.

If the train showing boxcars was out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass then it would be much smaller in perspective than the passenger cars in the railroad yards.  The boxcars are in between the signal towers.  This means that if the cars were about 300 or more feet (Earle Brown said about 100 yards) away on the Stemmons railroad overpass then Allen has been altered.

You have the signal tower out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass.  Why would it be there rather than in the railroad yards as shown in Allen?  There are 6 or 7 tracks on the TU overpass and in need of a signal tower.  There is only one track out on the Stemmons overpass and extra signals would be redundant.

13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks, if the tramps retreated to the boxcar after the shooting they would have had to cross the tracks on the North side of the overpass and that long walk to the Western most racks would have made them visible to the railroad workers on the overpass. I never knew the boxcars were so far West. It makes the whole scenario hard to imagine.

The Tramps or Hoboes were in the boxcar and apprehended by the Dallas Police in the boxcars.  There is no information on walking tramps or hoboes in the area of the Stemmons railroad overpass or anywhere in the railroad yards until they are removed from a train.

11 hours ago, John Butler said:

John, the tower is not visible in the McIntyre photo of JFK, it is visible in the 2nd McIntyre photo of the follow up car. In the photo of the tower taken from in front of the TSB the East tower is visible but the West side is blocked by the boxcar so the boxcar was definitely under the tower but there is no boxcar there in McIntyre 2

There is a time difference between these photos.  Time for the railroad yards personnel to move things around.   The McIntyre 2 photo is taken directly after the assassination.  And, this was a matter of seconds certainly less than a minute.   The Allen photo could have been taken as much as a hour later.  IMO, the train on the TU overpass was broken up and reassigned to two other trains and were about to leave the Dallas.  This is what a railroad yard does and they do it speedily and readily from long time practice.  One of the trains had tramps in a boxcar. 

There very well might have been a train on the Stemmons Railroad Overpass.  Officer Earle Brown indirectly said there was not by being able to see into Dealey Plaza.  However, in Wilma Bond 6 or perhaps 8 there is shown a rectangular object just behind the trees that it appears to be a train car.  This is in the center of the altered area blocking out a train.

I don’t believe a shot from the Grassy Knoll or the TU overpass directly west of the Grassy Knoll is responsible for the windshield shot.  This shot came from the area of the South Knoll.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Perhaps a better way to look at this train/no train situation is to re-examine what the Dallas Police Officers involved said.  They would be probably be accounted as expert witnesses in court.  There were 5 policemen, as far as I know, that made statements on what happened in and near the railroad yards concerning trains.  These are:

1.     Sargent D. V. Harkness

2.     Officer Earle Brown

3.     Officer James Lomax

4.     Officer J. W. Foster

5.     Officer J. C. White

First off, is the easiest to discuss Officer James Lomax.  Staff interview of James A. Lomax, Nov. 17, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Doc. No. 014352). 

Here, he essentially said nothing.  He didn’t see anything or was told anything by his partner on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass, Officer Earle Brown.  Officer Earle Brown on the other hand had interesting information to detail.

Testimony of Earle V. Brown, Apr. 7, 1964, 5 Warren Report Hearings, p. 231:

Mr. BALL. On November , 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road.
….

Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass Itself?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
….

Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. Now, this Is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of It?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; In other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass.
….

Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did It come to a. complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.

The important parts of Officer Brown’s testimony are emboldened.  He was on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass with Officer Lomax.  This was about 100 yards from the Triple Underpass.  He said he had problems seeing due to moving trains.  The reason they were on the overpass was they did not have a good view from the ground.

The president was attacked in the Elm and Houston intersection after they made the turn.  He at first says that the p. limo stopped but later says just slowed down.  There were 3 shots.

The Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?
Mr. FOSTER - He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. FOSTER - J.C. White.
Mr. BALL - Where was he?
Mr. FOSTER - He was on the west side of the overpass.
….

Mr. BALL - Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you do that?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you permit some people to be there?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who?
Mr. FOSTER - People that were working for the railroad there.
Mr. BALL - Were there many people?
Mr. FOSTER - About 10 or 11.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along the east banister.
Mr. BALL - The east banister?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; in front of me.
….

Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was any shot fired from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone with a weapon there?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or did you here any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.

….

Mr. BALL - Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?
Mr. FOSTER - No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway.
Mr. BALL - I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you had sent them away?
Mr. FOSTER - yes, sir.  

….

Mr. BALL - Than you. One moment please. Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?
Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees?
Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

….

Mr. BALL - Who was that sergeant?
Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant came up there.
Mr. BALL - Did you search the railroad cars?
Mr. FOSTER - No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer.
 

Here, Officer Foster has a credibility problem in two regards.  First he said there was not a train on the tracks which contradicts partner, Officer J. C. White.  But, just above he says there were railroad cars in the vicinity.  The Sargent who came up was more than likely Sargent D. V. Harkness.

Also, I believe he later repudiated that statement and said there was a train there.  However, I have not been able to find this on the internet or in my notes. 

Secondly, his location is not correct.  Altgens 7 shows Foster and the railroad men on the TU as he testified here.  But, at least 8 photos or film frames show this to be wrong.  Here is an example of two from the Robert Hughes Film and the Patsy Paschall Film:

As far as trains go the TU bridge is wide and not all trains would be seen and the railroad yards is also large enough to conceal trains from the photographers photos as we will see as we go along.

The testimony of J.C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964; In the office of the U.S. attorney, 801 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
…. 

Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?
Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. WHITE. None.
Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon?
Mr. WHITE. Not on my side.
Mr. BALL. They did not?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.
….

Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.
Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company?
Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails.
Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
….

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
….

 Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.
Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

This policeman’s testimony clearly indicates a train was on the railroad track during the assassination.  The other Officer present on the Triple Underpass was J. W. Foster.

The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

….

Mr. HARKNESS - I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.
Mr. BELIN - You mean some transients?
Mr. HARKNESS - Tramps and hoboes.
Mr. BELIN - That were on the freight car?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.
We had several officers working in that area.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.
Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Sargent Harkness saw at least two long freight trains in the railroad yards after the assassination.  From one of these trains tramps or hoboes were removed and taken in for questioning.

 Conclusions:  There were trains in the railroad yards that were not photographed by photographers.  There were at least two trains about to leave Dallas about an hour after the assassination.  Tramps or hoboes were taken from one and taken in for questioning.

Supposition:  There was an incoming train from the south coming into Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.  This is the long slow train mentioned by Officer White.  It could possibly be the source for the shot in the windshield at Z 160 as it passed behind the South Knoll.

 Railroad yards are for assembling and dismantling trains for reassignment elsewhere.  There was enough time to dissemble and then resemble this train into two trains readying to leave Dallas. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by John Butler

[Richard Price]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Perhaps a better way to look at this train/no train situation is to re-examine what the Dallas Police Officers involved said.  They would be probably be accounted as expert witnesses in court.  There were 5 policemen, as far as I know, that made statements on what happened in and near the railroad yards concerning trains.  These are:

1.     Sargent D. V. Harkness

2.     Officer Earle Brown

3.     Officer James Lomax

4.     Officer J. W. Foster

5.     Officer J. C. White

First off, is the easiest to discuss Officer James Lomax.  Staff interview of James A. Lomax, Nov. 17, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Doc. No. 014352). 

Here, he essentially said nothing.  He didn’t see anything or was told anything by his partner on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass, Officer Earle Brown.  Officer Earle Brown on the other hand had interesting information to detail.

Testimony of Earle V. Brown, Apr. 7, 1964, 5 Warren Report Hearings, p. 231:

Mr. BALL. On November , 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road.
….

Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass Itself?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
….

Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. Now, this Is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of It?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; In other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass.
….

Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did It come to a. complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.

The important parts of Officer Brown’s testimony are emboldened.  He was on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass with Officer Lomax.  This was about 100 yards from the Triple Underpass.  He said he had problems seeing due to moving trains.  The reason they were on the overpass was they did not have a good view from the ground.

The president was attacked in the Elm and Houston intersection after they made the turn.  He at first says that the p. limo stopped but later says just slowed down.  There were 3 shots.

The Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?
Mr. FOSTER - He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What is his name?
Mr. FOSTER - J.C. White.
Mr. BALL - Where was he?
Mr. FOSTER - He was on the west side of the overpass.
….

Mr. BALL - Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you do that?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you permit some people to be there?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who?
Mr. FOSTER - People that were working for the railroad there.
Mr. BALL - Were there many people?
Mr. FOSTER - About 10 or 11.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along the east banister.
Mr. BALL - The east banister?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; in front of me.
….

Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was any shot fired from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone with a weapon there?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or did you here any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.

….

Mr. BALL - Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?
Mr. FOSTER - No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway.
Mr. BALL - I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you had sent them away?
Mr. FOSTER - yes, sir.  

….

Mr. BALL - Than you. One moment please. Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?
Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees?
Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

….

Mr. BALL - Who was that sergeant?
Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant came up there.
Mr. BALL - Did you search the railroad cars?
Mr. FOSTER - No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer.
 

Here, Officer Foster has a credibility problem in two regards.  First he said there was not a train on the tracks which contradicts partner, Officer J. C. White.  But, just above he says there were railroad cars in the vicinity.  The Sargent who came up was more than likely Sargent D. V. Harkness.

Also, I believe he later repudiated that statement and said there was a train there.  However, I have not been able to find this on the internet or in my notes. 

Secondly, his location is not correct.  Altgens 7 shows Foster and the railroad men on the TU as he testified here.  But, at least 8 photos or film frames show this to be wrong.  Here is an example of two from the Robert Hughes Film and the Patsy Paschall Film:

As far as trains go the TU bridge is wide and not all trains would be seen and the railroad yards is also large enough to conceal trains from the photographers photos as we will see as we go along.

The testimony of J.C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964; In the office of the U.S. attorney, 801 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
…. 

Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?
Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. WHITE. None.
Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon?
Mr. WHITE. Not on my side.
Mr. BALL. They did not?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.
….

Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.
Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company?
Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails.
Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
….

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
….

 Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.
Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

This policeman’s testimony clearly indicates a train was on the railroad track during the assassination.  The other Officer present on the Triple Underpass was J. W. Foster.

The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

….

Mr. HARKNESS - I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.
Mr. BELIN - You mean some transients?
Mr. HARKNESS - Tramps and hoboes.
Mr. BELIN - That were on the freight car?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. HARKNESS - That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.
We had several officers working in that area.
Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.
Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Sargent Harkness saw at least two long freight trains in the railroad yards after the assassination.  From one of these trains tramps or hoboes were removed and taken in for questioning.

 Conclusions:  There were trains in the railroad yards that were not photographed by photographers.  There were at least two trains about to leave Dallas about an hour after the assassination.  Tramps or hoboes were taken from one and taken in for questioning.

Supposition:  There was an incoming train from the south coming into Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.  This is the long slow train mentioned by Officer White.  It could possibly be the source for the shot in the windshield at Z 160 as it passed behind the South Knoll.

 Railroad yards are for assembling and dismantling trains for reassignment elsewhere.  There was enough time to dissemble and then resemble this train into two trains readying to leave Dallas. 

John, this post got my attention due to the conclusions you're drawing.  You might want to review Officer Earle Brown's actual testimony (in full) rather than the selective quotes.  I tried to use your post to figure out where he says he was by using Google Earth and Google Maps.  It makes no sense and cannot be plotted.  I then went to the John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage and looked up his actual testimony (Vol VI-pages 232-236) and saw how his testimony was totally and purposely confused by Mr. Ball in another Warren Omission harangue.  When you look at his full testimony it is still problematic, but a few things stand out.

1.  He was NOT on the triple underpass, he was at least 100 yards away from it on the overpass at Stemmons Freeway and Stemmons Freeway Service Rd. 

Mr. Ball. Where were you?

Mr. Brown. On this overpass here this TP Railroad overpass.

Mr. Ball. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?

Mr. Brown. Right-yes, sir

Mr. Ball. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown---that runs in a north and south direction?

Mr. Brown. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown---that runs north and south, doesn't it?

Mr. Brown. Right.

Mr. Ball. Were you on either one of those overpasses?

Mr. Brown. Either one of those two there?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Brown. No, sir.

Mr. Ball.  Where were you?

Mr. Brown. On this overpass here this TP Railroad overpass.

Mr. Ball. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?

Mr. Brown. Right-yes, sir.

To further cement his position he says this when asked about the pigeons he saw fly up after the shots>

Mr. Ball. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off.

Mr. Ball. Where were they from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between---no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass.

Mr. Ball. The triple underpass?

Mr. Brown. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?

Mr. Brown. Approximately; yes.

The only thing I will say about his measurements is that they are very underestimated.  I used the measure tool on Google Maps/Earth and found that position to be around 200 yards from the TUP where Elm comes under.  This position is however, VERY consistent with all his testimony if you read it.  I would post a drawing or map, but can't seem to find one to work with yet.  In the Warren Commission there is supposedly one published as "Brown Exhibit A", but I have not found it either.  I would guess it shows him on the TUP instead of the farther away location over the Stemmons Freeway further west.

[John Butler]

47 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

John, this post got my attention due to the conclusions you're drawing.  You might want to review Officer Earle Brown's actual testimony (in full) rather than the selective quotes.  I tried to use your post to figure out where he says he was by using Google Earth and Google Maps.  It makes no sense and cannot be plotted.  I then went to the John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage and looked up his actual testimony (Vol VI-pages 232-236) and saw how his testimony was totally and purposely confused by Mr. Ball in another Warren Omission harangue.  When you look at his full testimony it is still problematic, but a few things stand out.

1.  He was NOT on the triple underpass, he was at least 100 yards away from it on the overpass at Stemmons Freeway and Stemmons Freeway Service Rd. 

Mr. Ball. Where were you?

Mr. Brown. On this overpass here this TP Railroad overpass.

Mr. Ball. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?

Mr. Brown. Right-yes, sir

Mr. Ball. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown---that runs in a north and south direction?

Mr. Brown. Yes.

 

Richard,

Thanks for the concern.  

I think you have misunderstood what I have said.  In Earle Browns' shortened testimony I have the same things you have.  There is no disagreement.

I went through all of the testimonies of the policemen involved in complete detail.  I have their complete testimonies stored.  I shortened their testimonies to what I considered the relevant information for the points I was making.

I shortened the policemen's testimony because folks tend not to read long statements.  I tried to keep this presentation as short as possible for that reason.

This is fairly close to Brown and Lomax's location.  They would be closer due to Brown saying he was about 100 yards (300 feet) from the Triple Underpass.  This is something I did years ago without thinking how close they were to the Triple Underpass as it relates to the TSBD.  The TSBD is 100 feet wide and using Zapruder as a yardstick (foot per frame) that would be 386 feet to the Triple Underpass.  The difference would be 86 feet or so.  These are rough calculations without regard to elevation and angles.  

Once again, thanks for your concern.

Edited November 12, 2020 by John Butler

[Chris Bristow]

12 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

The Allen and McIntyre 2 photo show the same area.  They show the train with passenger and boxcars on the Pergola spur line directly near the parking lot at the TSBD/Railroad Yards.  I can’t see a set of boxcars on the tracks under the signal towers in McIntyre 2.

If the train showing boxcars was out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass then it would be much smaller in perspective than the passenger cars in the railroad yards.  The boxcars are in between the signal towers.  This means that if the cars were about 300 or more feet (Earle Brown said about 100 yards) away on the Stemmons railroad overpass then Allen has been altered.

You have the signal tower out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass.  Why would it be there rather than in the railroad yards as shown in Allen?  There are 6 or 7 tracks on the TU overpass and in need of a signal tower.  There is only one track out on the Stemmons overpass and extra signals would be redundant.

The Tramps or Hoboes were in the boxcar and apprehended by the Dallas Police in the boxcars.  There is no information on walking tramps or hoboes in the area of the Stemmons railroad overpass or anywhere in the railroad yards until they are removed from a train.

There is a time difference between these photos.  Time for the railroad yards personnel to move things around.   The McIntyre 2 photo is taken directly after the assassination.  And, this was a matter of seconds certainly less than a minute.   The Allen photo could have been taken as much as a hour later.  IMO, the train on the TU overpass was broken up and reassigned to two other trains and were about to leave the Dallas.  This is what a railroad yard does and they do it speedily and readily from long time practice.  One of the trains had tramps in a boxcar. 

There very well might have been a train on the Stemmons Railroad Overpass.  Officer Earle Brown indirectly said there was not by being able to see into Dealey Plaza.  However, in Wilma Bond 6 or perhaps 8 there is shown a rectangular object just behind the trees that it appears to be a train car.  This is in the center of the altered area blocking out a train.

I don’t believe a shot from the Grassy Knoll or the TU overpass directly west of the Grassy Knoll is responsible for the windshield shot.  This shot came from the area of the South Knoll.

 

John, the tower is visible in the Hughes and Bell films. The lines of sight for both put the tower on the Stemmons overpass tracks, the most Westward tracks of the RR yard. The lines of sight for Bell and Hughes do pass over the East tracks on the way to the Stemmons overpass tracks, but Bell and Hughes cross the East tracks in different places and about 120 feet South of where the line of sight in Mcintyre 2 leads to. So the tower cannot be on the East tracks. If it was the tower in the Bell film would line up next to the pergola rather than the Forth Worth sign.
       You cannot see the boxcars under the tower in MC2 because they were not there during the assassination. The bottom section of the tower is visible in MC2 and if the boxcars were there it would block the lower 2 sections of the tower the view of the East side of the tower. The Allen photo shows the view of the West side of the tower is blocked by the boxcar, only possible if the boxcar was under the tower.
 Several things to conclude from this. 1)The tower is located on the Stemmons overpass tracks on the West side of the yard. 2) Because the view from MC2 shows the top of the Pullman to be higher than the billboard, we can assume that any cars on the East track would be visible in MC2 even when behind the billboard. There seems to be no place for a boxcar to hide in MC2 unless it was North of the Pullman car visible in MC2 and Allen. The boxcars were parked under the tower in the Allen photo and not there in MC2. The only conclusion possible, alterations aside, is that the boxcars were not present in the yard during the assassination.
  I have looked at the area behind the fence on the knoll. The light gap above the fence is created by the trees and it looks similar to the windows of the Pullman car but I think it is just the trees and maybe some building in the background.
 

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

John, the tower is visible in the Hughes and Bell films. The lines of sight for both put the tower on the Stemmons overpass tracks, the most Westward tracks of the RR yard. The lines of sight for Bell and Hughes do pass over the East tracks on the way to the Stemmons overpass tracks, but Bell and Hughes cross the East tracks in different places and about 120 feet South of where the line of sight in Mcintyre 2 leads to. So the tower cannot be on the East tracks. If it was the tower in the Bell film would line up next to the pergola rather than the Forth Worth sign.
       You cannot see the boxcars under the tower in MC2 because they were not there during the assassination. The bottom section of the tower is visible in MC2 and if the boxcars were there it would block the lower 2 sections of the tower the view of the East side of the tower. The Allen photo shows the view of the West side of the tower is blocked by the boxcar, only possible if the boxcar was under the tower.
 Several things to conclude from this. 1)The tower is located on the Stemmons overpass tracks on the West side of the yard. 2) Because the view from MC2 shows the top of the Pullman to be higher than the billboard, we can assume that any cars on the East track would be visible in MC2 even when behind the billboard. There seems to be no place for a boxcar to hide in MC2 unless it was North of the Pullman car visible in MC2 and Allen. The boxcars were parked under the tower in the Allen photo and not there in MC2. The only conclusion possible, alterations aside, is that the boxcars were not present in the yard during the assassination.
  I have looked at the area behind the fence on the knoll. The light gap above the fence is created by the trees and it looks similar to the windows of the Pullman car but I think it is just the trees and maybe some building in the background.
 

Chris,

Thanks for your persistence in getting me to see the correct view of things.  Thanks.

Lots of photos and frames to look at here.  This is a lot to analyze.  I suppose I went wrong with this overhead of Dealey Plaza.

There are no signal towers on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass in this photo.  Old school saying “learn it wrong, stays wrong”.  OTOH, there is no signal towers on the main tracks.  This is misleading or is it when looking at this.  I’ll explain that in a moment:

The overpass signal towers appear to be 120 feet or more behind the Pergola spur line.  They look like they are drawn in with large, taller signals.  Artwork?

Chris, check this and see if it clarifies your conclusions on where things were with these approximate points.

There is still the problem of the Allen parking lot photo.

The passenger cars appear to be connected to boxcar cars.  The passenger cars appear to be behind the east signal tower support.  There would be a small gap between cars for the hooking mechanisms.  It looks like they are hooked together.  If the boxcars were out on the Stemmons overpass then there should be a perspective difference in size.  Conclusion:  Either Allen is altered or JFK exhibit F-15 is. 

There does not appear to be 120 or more feet distance between passenger cars and boxcars.  I use 120 because that is roughly the distance across the Triple Underpass railroad tracks and would be about the same west of the parking lot.

And, a closer look that gets flakier:

I guess the object pointed to is supposed to be a passenger car window.  Strange appearance for a passenger car window.  There is variation in these windows, but perhaps none that low.

There is variation in passenger car windows.

Hughes gives the impression or illusion that the signal towers are right behind the parking lot and on the main tracks.  The Hughes signal tower is huge in relation to the Allen photo.  And, from Hughes perspective why can you see it at all?

Bell agrees with Hughes except for size.  Hughes should be smaller.

Conclusion:  Looking at these photos and frames suggests that efforts were made to show there was not a train in Dealey Plaza.  Even though the 4 police witnesses said there were.  I agree with Richard Price that at times the WC interrogators were leading witnesses, interrupting testimony, and calling a recess when a witness needed further instruction. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by John Butler

[Chris Bristow]

I have found that when I try to judge distance by the relative size of objects it's easy to make mistakes. Like in the Allen picture the relative size of the Pullman versus The Boxcar can be misleading because we don't see both objects in their entirety. Because the Allen photo doesn't allow us to see the bottom of the Box Car or the Pullman it may be giving a false perspective. If we can see both in their entirety I think we would see that the bottom of the Box Car is higher than the bottom of the Pullman because it's farther away. The Boxcar is not as tall as the Pullman in the picture so I think when you saw both the bottom and the top it would be much more obvious that the boxcar is smaller then the Pullman due to perspective

[John Butler]

On 11/12/2020 at 10:46 PM, Chris Bristow said:

I have found that when I try to judge distance by the relative size of objects it's easy to make mistakes. Like in the Allen picture the relative size of the Pullman versus The Boxcar can be misleading because we don't see both objects in their entirety. Because the Allen photo doesn't allow us to see the bottom of the Box Car or the Pullman it may be giving a false perspective. If we can see both in their entirety I think we would see that the bottom of the Box Car is higher than the bottom of the Pullman because it's farther away. The Boxcar is not as tall as the Pullman in the picture so I think when you saw both the bottom and the top it would be much more obvious that the boxcar is smaller then the Pullman due to perspective

Chris, 

You make several good points.  But, I differ on interpretation.  Some people may have problems with a perspective distance and the size of objects.  However, others may not particularly if they have experience in judging color, perspective, size, and distance.  I think that an object of the same relative (boxcars on Stemmons overpass) height as another (passenger cars on the Pergola spur) viewed from 100 yards away would make a considerable size difference.  Officer Earle Brown was on the Stemmons Overpass and judged the distance to the railroad yards as 100 yards or 300 feet.  Allen should show a size difference if the cars were 300 feet away.

All train cars by regulation must be 4 feet above the tracks.  Boxcars vary in height from 14 feet to 18 feet.  Passenger cars are at average of 16 feet.  Some are perhaps 2 feet taller.   Allen may have small boxcars of 14 feet as versus the 16 or so feet of a passenger car. 

In Allen you cannot see the bottom of the cars, wheels, or tracks.  So, the answer to that point is problematic or unknowable.

Here is another thought.  Wilma Bond 8 does not show boxcars attached to the passenger cars seen in Allen.  If those boxcars were attached to the passenger cars in Allen then that would have to have been done between the time those two photos being taken.  Perhaps an hour period or less or an unknown time.  

This is why I speculate that J. C. White was right and a long, slow freight train came into Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.  This train was disassembled with some freight cars attached in the Allen photo and the rest assembled into two freight trains that Sgt. D. V. Harkness searched and found hoboes and tramps before they left Dallas.

I have put forward several points and conclusions throughout this thread.  Some are badly stated and others perhaps confusing.  I am doing a rewrite to see if I can clarify what I have said earlier.

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Conclusions About The Hole Through The P. Limo’s Windshield

Here I have to make apologies to Jim Phelps for extending this topic beyond his original interest and intent.  I contend there may have been at shot from a train car behind the South Knoll that could be responsible for the through hole in the windshield.  This shot would take place at a Z 160 frame location of the p. limo.  And, for linking this shot to a supposedly non-existent train in Dealey Plaza and going somewhat off topic pursuing the evidence for this train. 

Conclusions:  It is possible that the through bullet hole in the p. limo’s windshield was made from the South Knoll in one of two ways as described below.  At this point the most likely is a shot from the South Knoll to the p. limo located at Zapruder frame 225.  The other shot at Z 160 depends on the existence of a train on the Triple Underpass with a car behind the South Knoll at the time of the shooting.

The shot for the through hole in the p. limos windshield could have come from and in all probability did come the South Knoll.  This is something in prior times I held no faith or believe in at all.  However, circumstances changed with the work of Chris Bristow.

The bullet hole in the windshield that traveled to the area of President Kennedy’s throat has been calculated as a 15 ° angle coming from the South Knoll at the position of Zapruder Film frame 225. 

Chris Davidson reminded folks that maybe so, but if Kennedy shifted position to the left or right then that shot could have come from other places.

There are other ways a shot from the South Knoll could have made the hole through the windshield/Kennedy’s throat.  This involves a train and will no doubt on any occasion raise debate.  A long, slow freight train as described by Dallas Police Officer J. C. White passed over the Triple Underpass as the assassination was occurring.  White’s fellow patrolman assigned to the Triple Underpass didn’t say anything about a train being there at the time of the assassination. 

His Warren Commission interviewer, Joseph A. Ball, did not mention a train being there at the time of the assassination.  Later, Foster said there was.  The train or no train will be discussed in detail later. 

With a boxcar or a passenger car passing directly behind the South Knoll and with a location of the p. limo at Zapruder frame 160, it is possible that the shot could be made to the windshield/throat.  This involves math calculations of angles from the p. limo’s windshield/throat to the South Knoll of a 3 ° rise in the slope of the angle accounting for a 3.5 ° slope downhill on Elm Street to the Triple Underpass.  The height of President Kennedy in the vehicle was said to be 3.5 feet above Elm.

David Josephs provided the height of the Triple Underpass to the top of the railing there as 27 feet.  If one looks at the specifications of a boxcar and a passenger car they are by regulation 4 feet above the tracks.  The average height of a boxcar is 14 to 16 feet.    So, a shot to the p. limo’s windshield would have to be in the range of about 15 feet above the railing.  27 feet for the railing and 15 feet above says the shot could not be made from a height greater than 41 feet and not lower than 27 feet.

Standing on a crate or platform in the boxcar this shot could be made.

Calculations would look like this:

And would look like this visually:

The problem with this scenario is that few believe there was a train on the railroad bridge at the time of the assassination.

[John Butler]

Evidence for a train/no train in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination:

1.     There is no visual evidence for a train on the Triple Underpass at the time of the assassination.  There is visual evidence that there was a train or parts of a train on the Stemmons Railroad Overpass at the time of the assassination or directly within minutes afterwards.  There is evidence for a train in the railroad yards directly after the assassination.

2.     There is visual evidence, the Allen photo, that appears to show there were passenger cars at the west end of the TSBD/railroad parking lot.  They appear to be hooked to boxcars.  The train cars are located under the signal towers on the Stemmons Overpass line and therefore they could not be located near the parking lot in the manner shown by Allen. The signal towers were on the Stemmons spur line about 150 feet from the parking lot.   There was only one railroad track there and it was for the Texas and Pacific railroad company.  

3.     Allen and Bond photos show a train behind the Pergola of the Grassy Knoll in railroad yards.  The Phil Willis slide is disputed as an alteration removing the train from behind the Pergola.  In my judgement there was no train or cars on the Pergola spur line.  Harold Weisberg made a mistake.  It very like that train or train cars was on the Stemmons Overpass line or simply an alteration.

4.     There were 5 Dallas Police Officers assigned to duty on the Triple Underpass and the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass.  A sixth, a police Sargent, was assigned to search the railroad yards after the assassination.  These men are primarily the source for information about trains in the area of the Stemmons Freeway Overpass, the Triple Underpass, and the railroad yards.

5.     Officer James Lomax was with Earle Brown on the north end of the Stemmons Overpass.

6.     Officer Joe Murphy was located on the Stemmons Overpass above Elm Street and later above Main/Commerce.

7.     Officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White were on the Triple Underpass.  Foster was located near Elm Street on the east side and White was located above Main St. on the west side.

8.     Sgt. D. V. Harkness later supervised the search of two freight trains about to leave Dallas in the railroad yards and removed suspicious people, hoboes and tramps, from a train and took them in for questioning.

 

Conclusion:  There were trains in the area of the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass, The Triple Underpass, and the Railroad Yards during and after the assassination.  There were two trains which were not photographed or filmed by photographers during and after the assassination.  These trains were prepared to leave Dallas and were stopped and searched by Sgt. D. V. Harkness.  Suspicious people were removed by the Dallas Police, hoboes and tramps, and taken into custody for questioning.

Officer James Lomax is the easiest of these officers to discuss.  Essentially, he was not interviewed by the Dallas Police, the FBI, the Warren Commission, or any other authority in 1963 or 1964.  He did offer testimony to the HSCA.  This is what I was able to find after much searching:

“Staff interview of James A. Lomax, Nov. 17, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Doc. No. 014352)

The committee interviewed James Lomax in Dallas on October 27, 1978. Lomax had never been interviewed by any law enforcement officers of the Warren commission about events in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. During his interview, Lomax gave no information about the assignment to list the license numbers of cars in the area of the depository after the assassination. Lomax had no other information to report about persons fleeing from the depository or Dealey Plaza. When asked by committee investigators about Earle Brown's report of a man leaving the depository, lomax stated that Brown never mentioned it to him and that he did not observe the reported incident.(311)

There is no mention of trains. 

Conclusion:  Officer Lomax offers no useful information about the events in Dealey Plaza.”

Officer Earle Brown talked about trains in his interview by the WC investigators in Testimony of Earle V. Brown, Apr. 7, 1964, 5 Warren Report Hearings, p. 231:

In this report Brown said he was assigned to the railroad overpass above the Stemmons Freeway.  He was there with patrolman James Lomax.  They were located on the north side of the overpass.  Neither Lomax or Brown mention a train on the overpass.  The McIntyre photo 2 shows no train on the overpass above Stemmons.  It is argued that the boxcars seen in the Allen photo are out on the Stemmons Overpass.  Brown said he was about 100 yards from the TU.  That is 300 feet and the boxcars if out on the Stemmons Overpass would appear much smaller in perspective in the Allen photo.

Brown said he was about 100 yards from the TU and that would make an extra 162 yards to the Elm and Houston intersection or the TSBD.  This figure would be roughly 260 yards to view Elm and Houston and the events of that day. 

Brown said this about viewing trains from atop the Stemmons Overpass:

“Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.”

That’s not surprising since he was viewing the railroad yards for most of the time before the assassination.  He also said this:

“Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where you were located?
Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars.
Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You could see those?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.”

And,

“Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.”

Folks may not have caught what this means.  He was able to view the Elm intersection.  That would mean there was not a train on the TU.  Or, that if there was one that train had not moved north enough to block his view.

According to Brown the president was attacked in the Elm and Houston intersection after they made the turn.  He at first says that the p. limo stopped but later says just slowed down.  There were 3 shots.

And,

“Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over In the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.
Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't.
Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.”

And,

“Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where Elm goes underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.”
 

I take this to mean that Brown did not see Officer Foster with 10 or 11 railroad workers on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street.

Conclusions:  Officer Brown did not mention a train on the Stemmons Overpass during the time of the assassination.  He did mention viewing trains moving in the railroad yards, but did not specify a time.  This observation could have been from watching the yards for several hours.

With his statement along with the McIntyre photo 2, one could say with some certainty there was not a train on the Stemmons Overpass west of the Triple Underpass.

Dallas Officer Earle Brown did not see Officer Foster with 10 or 11 railroad workers on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street.

Officer Joe E. Murphy discussed trains in his interview by the WC investigators at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Officer Murphy said he was assigned to:

“Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass - the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street - over Elm.
Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?
Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.”

And,

“Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on Elm from Houston, what Is the first overpass that you encounter?
Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass - all of the trains entering and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass.
Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were two.”

And,

“Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10 - from what -I could see - about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. They were all together?”

Officer Murphy spoke of other things, but these are basically his observations on the Stemmons Overpass, the Triple Underpass, and trains.

Conclusions:  Officer Murphy confirmed there were two officers on the railroad bridge.  He didn’t know their names.  These undoubtedly were Officers Foster and White.

He indicated that all trains had to cross the railroad bridge entering and leaving from the railroad yards.  They had to cross the railroad bridge.

Officer Murphy has a credibility problem with the 8 to 10 workers.  They were not there at all.  This indicates his testimony was coached.

The Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Officer J. W. Foster was assigned to the Triple Underpass with Officer J. C. White.  Foster was assigned to the east side of the TU and White was assigned to the west.  Foster said he was above Elm Street on the railroad bridge.  Sgt. D. V. Harkness made the assignment of both officers. 

Officer Foster’s testimony is a key element in understanding what occurred on the Triple Underpass. On reading through Officer Foster’s testimony one can say there are creditability problems with it.  This may be called cherry picking evidence, but it is simply shortening the testimony to the important points. 

“Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL - What are they?
Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER - All right.
(off the record)

At this point Ball goes off to secure a map to plot where Foster was on the Triple Underpass.  He wants to make sure there is exact record of where Foster was.

And,

“Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.”

Foster made have said something else in the highlighted area and this was later changed by WC personnel.  Why this change?  The answer is complicated and involves the Union Terminal railroad workers who were said to be on the railroad bridge with Foster above Elm Street.   Altgens 7 shows very clearly that Foster and 10 or 11 railroad workers are there above Elm Street.  This is also shown in the Bell film after just a few frames before there is no one there.  Less than seconds worth of frames.

But, this is not true.  Altgens 7 is a fraud.  The following 8 photos and films show no one was on the railroad bridge:

1.     The Jim Towner Photo

2.     The Weigman Film 

3.     The Bell Film- At first a Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 7 Photo.

4.     The Martin Film

5.     A Wilma Bond Photo

6.     The Couch Film

7.     The Paschall Film

8.     The Hughes Film

If you have good eyes you can see in the Hughes film, the Patsy Paschall film, and a Wilma Bond photo where Officer Foster was standing.  He was standing farther north of the TU where the grassy slope comes up to meet the bridge.  These 10 or 11 Union Terminal employees were allegedly on the bridge were with him there.

RR Witnesses allegedly on Viaduct.   

1   C F Bishop   Bishop, Curtis Freeman        3/19/64 FBI report        
2   E W Cowsert  Cowsert, Ewell William        3/19/64 FBI report
3   G A Davis    Davis, George A.        3/19/64 FBI report
4   R C Dodd     Dodd, Richard Calvin        3/18/64 FBI report
5   S M Holland  Holland S.M.           *        11/22/63 Affidavit
6   C E Johnson         Johnson, Clemon Earl        3/18/64 FBI report
7   A L Miller          Miller, Austin L. *        1/22/63 Affidavit
8   T J Murphy         Murphy, Thomas J.        3/20/64 FBI report
9   N H Potter         Potter, Nolan H.        3/19/64 FBI report
10  F E Reilly          Reilly, Frank E.         12/18/63 FBI report 
11  J L Simmons Simmons, James L. **     3/19/64 FBI report
12  R G Skelton  Skelton, Royce G. *        11/22/63 Affidavit

Why point this out again?  It is because Ball stresses this location on several occasions during Foster’s testimony. Again:

“Mr. BALL - Now where were you standing?
Mr. FOSTER - Standing along the east curb of - east side of the overpass over Elm Street there, above the south curb.
Mr. BALL - Over, above the south curb of Elm?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "X". J. - What are the initials?
Mr. FOSTER - J.W.
Mr. BALL - J.W.F. That marks where you were standing.
Mr. FOSTER - Approximately; yes, sir.”

He locates the railroad workers with Foster:

“Mr. FOSTER - People that were working for the railroad there.
Mr. BALL - Were there many people?
Mr. FOSTER - About 10 or 11.
Mr. BALL - Where were they standing?
Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along the east banister.
Mr. BALL - The east banister?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; in front of me.
Mr. BALL - In front of you. Will you mark there and show the general area where they were standing?
Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along this area here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people were standing?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Were you looking toward them?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.”

Ball wanted to make sure that Foster and the railroad men were properly placed so that this question could be asked.  The Union Terminal employees said that they saw smoke coming up from the Grassy Knoll and they heard a shot from that direction.  Most of these workers were filmed and interviewed by Mark Lane.    

“Mr. BALL - Was any shot fired from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone with a weapon there?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or did you here any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.”

Just as the interview was ending Ball had to ask one more time about the assignment and the railroad workers.  This testimony from Foster was to ensure that the railroad workers were on the bridge as the infamous Altgens 7 photo showed.

“Mr. BALL - Than you. One moment please. Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?
Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees?
Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.
Mr. BALL – Okay”

Ball stressed the location of Foster and the railroad workers 4 times.  Their location was and important point of testimony.  Furthermore, this point was made in the Officer Joe E. Murphy testimony by Joseph Ball.  This is a total of 5 times.  This was a very important testimonial point indicating there was not any shooting activity from the railroad bridge.

“Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10 - from what -I could see - about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to he railroad employees.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. They were all together?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball)”

A very important point.   Indeed.

Conclusions:  A great deal of effort was put into showing that nothing happened on the Triple Underpass when President Kennedy’s limousine turned off of Houston Street and began the journey down Elm Street towards the Triple Underpass. Jesse Curry, when he heard shots, radioed in to get someone up on the Triple Underpass and see what was happening there. 

This effort positively showed there were no snipers there or any shooting from the railroad bridge.  If my recollection is correct none of the railroad workers mentioned a train in Dealey Plaza on the TU at the time of the assassination. 

This effort involved the forging of Ike Altgens photo number 7 into an instrument that showed Officer Foster and the railroad workers on the Triple Underpass over Elm Street.  This is the perfect location for viewing Elm Street and what happened there.  They would have seen trains, people, and anything going on there at the TU.

It also involved the coaching of two police witnesses, Foster and Murphy.  Mark Lane unwittingly added further to the deception by interviewing the Union Terminal employees and gladly accepting their testimony that a shot from the Grassy Knoll was seen as a puff of smoke and heard.  Mark Lane was simply overjoyed that he had about 10 witnesses who saw or heard shooting from the Grassy Knoll and therefore there was a second shooter in Dealey Plaza.  Lane had a conspiracy to murder a President.

All of this indicates the Union Terminal Co. may have been involved.

The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
 

Dallas Police Sgt. D. V. Harkness provides further testimony concerning trains in Dealey Plaza.  Sgt. Harkness was involved in many things in Dealey Plaza that afternoon.  It is a long testimony and will be shortened to just the information concerning trains.

“Were you on duty November 22, 1963?

Mr. Harkness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Doing what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Belin.

Where were you around 12:30 p.m.?

Mr. Harkness.

At Main and Houston.

Mr. Belin.

On the east or west side of Houston?

Mr. Harkness.

West side of Houston.   (Can be seen in Robert Hughes film)”

And,

“Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.

Mr. Belin.

Then what did you do?

Mr. Harkness.

Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. Belin.

You mean some transients?

Mr. Harkness.

Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. Belin.

That were on the freight car?

Mr. Harkness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Then what did you do?

Mr. Harkness.

That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.  We had several officers working in that area.
 

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard

Mr. Harkness.

Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.

Mr. Belin.

Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. Harkness.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin.

Were all those questioned?

Mr. Harkness.

Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Mr. Belin.

Any guns of any kind found?
Mr. HARKNESS'. Not to my knowledge.

Conclusions:  There were two freight trains in the railroad yards about to leave Dallas for other destinations.  These trains were searched by Sgt. Harkness and other Dallas police officers. 

Suspicious people, hoboes and tramps, were taken from a boxcar of a freight train and taken in for questioning.  Most likely these were the 3 tramps filmed in Dealey Plaza.  There may have been others.

The most important part of this testimony is that the two freight trains discussed by Sgt. Harkness were never photographed by any of the Dealey Plaza photographers.  These two trains are important because they may have been the long, slow freight train mentioned by Officer J. C. White on the Triple Underpass during the time of the assassination. 

This long, slow freight train may have been disassembled and later assembled into the two trains leaving other cars on the Stemmon Overpass line.

What is the evidence for this conclusion?

Edited November 17, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza- The Elusive, Non-existent Train Hidden in Plain Sight

In order to see if there was any trains or train cars on the Triple Underpass, the Stemmons Railroad Overpass line, or in the rail yards one needs to re-examine the photos concerning trains that afternoon.  Once again there are a lot of photos to look at and analyze.  It is wordy if you believe a picture is worth 10,000 words.

First off, there is no visual evidence for any train or cars on the Triple Underpass.  None.  There may be reasons for that and will be discussed later.

There is evidence for train cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line.  To see these train cars, we need to review the McIntyre photos and others concerning trains.  There are 3 McIntyre photos that I have put into order as 1, 2, and 3 depending on where they were in relation to the small Stemmons Exit sign seen in those photos.

The first photo one will see is McIntyre 1 on the internet which are usually sharp and clear.  The Unger photo is a good representative of this.

This photo is misleading in the sense it does not show all of the information contained in the photo.  A better example is from the book, Pictures of Pain.  The Stemmons Overpass spur line separates from the 7 main tracks just south of the towers perhaps 40 to 50 feet from the main tracks.

 

The signal towers for the railyards were located on the Stemmons Overpass Railroad Line.  There are definitely there and not in the railroad yards.  The Stemmons Overpass line leaves about 40 to 50 feet south of the 7 main tracks going over the Triple Underpass.

We see the towers again in McIntyre 2.  Definitely on the Stemmons Overpass.  Here if you look closely or blow up this photo you will see a passenger train behind the signal towers.  Ghost Train?

The blowup:

 

The signal towers have been cut out in the earlier photo.  These towers are clearly on the Stemmons Overpass line.  We see the Triple Underpass line also.  The towers split from the other 7 lines on the TU tracks just before the signal towers are reached forming a Y to the west.

McIntyre 2 reinforces this by showing the Dealey Plaza area in relation to the Stemmons signal towers.  In this photo the Secret Service security vehicle is near the small Stemmons Exit sign.

If one looks closely there appears to be a train in the railroad yards.  Blowing up the image one can see the passenger train is behind the signal towers and therefore has to be in the railroad yards.

McIntyre 3 shows what may very well be the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza or parts of it.  There are another two passenger cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line.  This is within a minute or two of the assassination.

Notice that the first train on the right (picture left) has distance between it and the Stemmons line.  It must be in the railroad yards.   The other two passenger cars are the ones we see through the Pergola structure in Bond, Bell, and others.  This is the mistake that Harold Weisberg and others made when saying these cars are on the Pergola spur line. You can see they are on the Stemmons with the main tracks in the background.  And, I believe these are also the cars that one sees in Allen with boxcars added.  This indicates within minutes to an hour of the assassination the elusive Ghost Train was reassembled into other trains. 

The passenger cars and freight cars shown here are on the Stemmons spur line.  You can see they are passing through the signal towers.  This is after the McIntyre photos and indicates more work by the railyards moving trains and cars. 

This Allen photo is more than likely an alteration showing the train cars larger than they should be.  The distance from the signal towers to the edge of the parking lot for the yards is 152 as measured by Google Earth Pro.  Their appearance should be smaller.

This is a later, but contemporary photo showing a train on the tracks of the TU.  Notice the size of the cars in relation to the train.  This is very similar or smaller than the vehicles of what is seen in Allen indicating that Allen is altered.

One further photo needs to be examined.  At this point the photographer of the photo is unknown.  It shows a policeman standing on a train car in the distance.

 

This photo also appears to show a train in the railroad yards perhaps on the Pergola spur line as Harold Weisberg suggested.  It has a someone, a policemen perhaps, on top of a car. 

Once again, the size of the cars call into question where this partial train is.  This is the partial train of a short passenger car and long passenger one sees in McIntyre 3.  This train is on the Stemmons Overpass line, but appears to be near the railroad yards.

Hughes may show the same train or another.  If another, there was considerable movement of passenger cars on the Stemmons spur line.  Harold Weisberg was wrong when he said this train was on the Pergola spur line.

Conclusion:  After almost 57 years we have a better understanding of trains in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy.

There is a good possibility that the long, slow train that Officer J. C. White stated passed through at the time of the assassination was disassembled and reassembled as two freight trains about to leave Dallas and remnant car cars were left on the Stemmons spur line.  

Is McIntyre 3 showing what I call the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza?  I think it could very well be the non-existent train.  Why was this train not seen in the media of Dealey Plaza during the assassination?  I can only say alteration. 

There may be one other reason.  The Triple Underpass is 27 feet high at the height of the bridge railing.  It is 120 feet across above the 3 streets.  There are 7 tracks on the bridge.  One may not be able to see the center of the bridge on a middle track from Elm Street from the intersection with Houston to down to the Stemmons Overpass exit. 

Photographers such as Bell and Paschall were on elevated positions and should have seen and photographed the train.  Here are two photo frames of Paschall that shows alterations.  Here we see the entire bridge and railroad lines blacked out. 

And,

 

You can see an area blacked out in the middle of the bridge.  It could be a train there.  The true sign of alteration is the back of the railroad bridge railing.  It elevates above the front of the bridges railing.  The is perspective wrong.  Elm Street slopes downward at a 3. 5 percent slope from the intersection to the Stemmons exit.  The bridge would be leveled to account for that.  The center of the bridge is gradually raised to a slight degree to shed water from rains.  Distance perspective should show the back railing sloping downwards not upward.     

This is the train broken into two other trains that the 3 tramps came off of during the search of the railroad yards.  If this train was the one described by J. C. White then it could have provided a platform to make a shot to Elm Street at Z frame 160 and blow through the windshield and strike President Kennedy in the throat. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by John Butler

[Chris Bristow]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza- The Elusive, Non-existent Train Hidden in Plain Sight

In order to see if there was any trains or train cars on the Triple Underpass, the Stemmons Railroad Overpass line, or in the rail yards one needs to re-examine the photos concerning trains that afternoon.  Once again there are a lot of photos to look at and analyze.  It is wordy if you believe a picture is worth 10,000 words.

First off, there is no visual evidence for any train or cars on the Triple Underpass.  None.  There may be reasons for that and will be discussed later.

There is evidence for train cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line.  To see these train cars, we need to review the McIntyre photos and others concerning trains.  There are 3 McIntyre photos that I have put into order as 1, 2, and 3 depending on where they were in relation to the small Stemmons Exit sign seen in those photos.

The first photo one will see is McIntyre 1 on the internet which are usually sharp and clear.  The Unger photo is a good representative of this.

This photo is misleading in the sense it does not show all of the information contained in the photo.  A better example is from the book, Pictures of Pain.  The Stemmons Overpass spur line separates from the 7 main tracks just south of the towers perhaps 40 to 50 feet from the main tracks.

 

The signal towers for the railyards were located on the Stemmons Overpass Railroad Line.  There are definitely there and not in the railroad yards.  The Stemmons Overpass line leaves about 40 to 50 feet south of the 7 main tracks going over the Triple Underpass.

We see the towers again in McIntyre 2.  Definitely on the Stemmons Overpass.  Here if you look closely or blow up this photo you will see a passenger train behind the signal towers.  Ghost Train?

The blowup:

 

The signal towers have been cut out in the earlier photo.  These towers are clearly on the Stemmons Overpass line.  We see the Triple Underpass line also.  The towers split from the other 7 lines on the TU tracks just before the signal towers are reached forming a Y to the west.

McIntyre 2 reinforces this by showing the Dealey Plaza area in relation to the Stemmons signal towers.  In this photo the Secret Service security vehicle is near the small Stemmons Exit sign.

If one looks closely there appears to be a train in the railroad yards.  Blowing up the image one can see the passenger train is behind the signal towers and therefore has to be in the railroad yards.

McIntyre 3 shows what may very well be the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza or parts of it.  There are another two passenger cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line.  This is within a minute or two of the assassination.

Notice that the first train on the right (picture left) has distance between it and the Stemmons line.  It must be in the railroad yards.   The other two passenger cars are the ones we see through the Pergola structure in Bond, Bell, and others.  This is the mistake that Harold Weisberg and others made when saying these cars are on the Pergola spur line. You can see they are on the Stemmons with the main tracks in the background.  And, I believe these are also the cars that one sees in Allen with boxcars added.  This indicates within minutes to an hour of the assassination the elusive Ghost Train was reassembled into other trains. 

The passenger cars and freight cars shown here are on the Stemmons spur line.  You can see they are passing through the signal towers.  This is after the McIntyre photos and indicates more work by the railyards moving trains and cars. 

This Allen photo is more than likely an alteration showing the train cars larger than they should be.  The distance from the signal towers to the edge of the parking lot for the yards is 152 as measured by Google Earth Pro.  Their appearance should be smaller.

This is a later, but contemporary photo showing a train on the tracks of the TU.  Notice the size of the cars in relation to the train.  This is very similar or smaller than the vehicles of what is seen in Allen indicating that Allen is altered.

One further photo needs to be examined.  At this point the photographer of the photo is unknown.  It shows a policeman standing on a train car in the distance.

 

This photo also appears to show a train in the railroad yards perhaps on the Pergola spur line as Harold Weisberg suggested.  It has a someone, a policemen perhaps, on top of a car. 

Once again, the size of the cars call into question where this partial train is.  This is the partial train of a short passenger car and long passenger one sees in McIntyre 3.  This train is on the Stemmons Overpass line, but appears to be near the railroad yards.

Hughes may show the same train or another.  If another, there was considerable movement of passenger cars on the Stemmons spur line.  Harold Weisberg was wrong when he said this train was on the Pergola spur line.

Conclusion:  After almost 57 years we have a better understanding of trains in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy.

There is a good possibility that the long, slow train that Officer J. C. White stated passed through at the time of the assassination was disassembled and reassembled as two freight trains about to leave Dallas and remnant car cars were left on the Stemmons spur line.  

Is McIntyre 3 showing what I call the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza?  I think it could very well be the non-existent train.  Why was this train not seen in the media of Dealey Plaza during the assassination?  I can only say alteration. 

There may be one other reason.  The Triple Underpass is 27 feet high at the height of the bridge railing.  It is 120 feet across above the 3 streets.  There are 7 tracks on the bridge.  One may not be able to see the center of the bridge on a middle track from Elm Street from the intersection with Houston to down to the Stemmons Overpass exit. 

Photographers such as Bell and Paschall were on elevated positions and should have seen and photographed the train.  Here are two photo frames of Paschall that shows alterations.  Here we see the entire bridge and railroad lines blacked out. 

And,

 

You can see an area blacked out in the middle of the bridge.  It could be a train there.  The true sign of alteration is the back of the railroad bridge railing.  It elevates above the front of the bridges railing.  The is perspective wrong.  Elm Street slopes downward at a 3. 5 percent slope from the intersection to the Stemmons exit.  The bridge would be leveled to account for that.  The center of the bridge is gradually raised to a slight degree to shed water from rains.  Distance perspective should show the back railing sloping downwards not upward.     

This is the train broken into two other trains that the 3 tramps came off of during the search of the railroad yards.  If this train was the one described by J. C. White then it could have provided a platform to make a shot to Elm Street at Z frame 160 and blow through the windshield and strike President Kennedy in the throat. 

John. the 'ghost train in MC2 is part of the the same three Pullman cars you see in the Hughes film, and you can see the back end of the 1st of those three cars in the Allen photo. The policeman on the Pullman car photo has him on top of the same Pullman's as in the other photos. I have measured the location of those cars for Hughes, Allen and MC2 and the location for the back end we see in Allen is the same location in all those photos.
 The photo from the Stemmons freeway  shows different train cars. On the left there is a boxcar behind a flatbed with some stacked pyramid shapes cargo, the another partial boxcar in front of it. I will look again for the photo but I think I saw those cars sitting farther West on the Stemmons spur, maybe 50 or 100 yards from the tower
Just checked google Earth. That photo on the Stemmons shows the Dal Tex is not blocked by the TSB, there is a gap between them. You can use that to do a line of sight back to the  camera location on the Stemmons. A second line of sight from the limo can be traced using Bowers tower visible in the center of the photo. The Annex is behind it and the tower lines up with the 3rd window from the left. That gives a very accurate line of sight. The limo is right over  Continental Ave. Turns out those boxcars on the left side of the photo are nowhere near the yard. They are 1000 feet or so North of the plaza on track parallel to the Stemmons. The limo is about 2000 feet North of the plaza and 850  feet from those train cars. They only other track that intersects with the line of sight is tracks in the yard behind(North of) the TSB but the cars are facing 90 degrees away from the direction of those tracks.
The cars on the left side of the photo are also on same track but about 800 feet closer to the yard than the other cars. Cars on the left side are about 1200 feet from the yard and the cars on the left side of the screen are about 400 feet North of the yard.
 I do not believe you can judge relatives sizes of objects and get their distance without specific measurements. It is a ball park judgements and needs to be verified by testing and comparing relative sizes. Like the train cars on either side of the Stemmons limo photo above look pretty close in size to be so far apart yet the cars on the left are 50% larger when you measure them. The other factor is the distance from the camera to each object. If a camera is 100 feet away from object A and 200 feet from object B the relative sizes of A& B will not be the same as a photo taken from half the distance.  I THINK! I will test that and get back to you.
Place yourself over Continental Ave on the Stemmons and Bower's tower will line up just as in the photo. Then draw a line from the back of the TSB which is directly behind the train cars to continental Ave and the line will show the possible locations for the train cars
 The dark overpass in the Paschel film is not in itself evidence of fakery and I think the lack of quality in some photos makes it hard to see the people on the bridge.

[Adam Johnson]

Officer Whites true position on the west side of the triple underpass as the presidents car went under the tracks above...

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.

Top right hand corner of this image, dark pants dark shirt white police hat...